Feigning Ignorance to Avoid Reality

[Trueblue]

http://www.veracifier.com/episode/TPM_20080605

Playing down to the masses....

[wvpeach]

Neo con right wing so called Christians do it all the time.

For instance a pre emptive war goes against every teaching of Christs . Yet the fake Christians who don't have a clue what the bible says voted Bush the murder back in in 2004 all the time waving the banner of Christianity . That is a sin.

We seem to have become a nation of people who love to ignore the truth in favor of their own fantasies. Its a real shame when that includes our president.

There may not be much hope for this country .

[Trueblue]

There's a great deal of hope in this country, IMO.

[wvpeach]

Don't know how old you are true blue. But I am a almost 50 year old small business owner who has built homes and ran a mortgage company in this country for over 15 years now. I have been politically active for at least 30 years . trying to pass on a better country to my own , now grown up kids than the one I grew up in.

What I see now is a much , much worse country than the one I grew up in and a economy that could crash anyday. I sold my home building business and mortgage company and got out just in time .

Nope , my kids are in careers where they will always have a job. But 30 years of trickle down Reaganomics style economics policies have ruined our economy. Deregulation under Bush has pushed it to the edge of the cliff.

I don't have hope we can save this economy which means a crash big time.

Maybe after the smoke clears we can build a better America . But I have lost hope in saving the one we know now.

[Ringo]

Neo con right wing so called Christians do it all the time.

For instance a pre emptive war goes against every teaching of Christs . Yet the fake Christians who don't have a clue what the bible says voted Bush the murder back in in 2004 all the time waving the banner of Christianity . That is a sin.

We seem to have become a nation of people who love to ignore the truth in favor of their own fantasies. Its a real shame when that includes our president.

There may not be much hope for this country .

Did you Vote for Clinton the Murderer, and I do MEAN PERSONAL MURDER?? Did You Admire LBJ who murdered millions in SE ASIA or Truman-FDR who murdered MILLIONS in Japan and Europe??

What about the Christian Crusades or your Favorite Stalin's mass murder count! Do you admire the Devils Home on Earth, in Iran-Syria??

See little wind-up DNC DOLL, there are a lot of LEFTIES who are scumbags, but you and TB can only pronounce BUSH!!! Outcome based education, or the result of cousin :mw:tb:mw:tb

[issac the dragon]

Don't forget that McBush wants to get rid of the few remaining regulations on businesses. He thinks that too much regulation is the problem.

[wvpeach]

I happened to get a good laugh a couple of weeks ago Issac . I was listening to c-span and heard the president has sent a message to congress. He rarely does this but he did just after the banking fiasco hit.

The message he had sent to congress was that while it was upsetting that so many banks and mortgage companies had been irresponsible in causing this mortgage loan mess he wanted to remind congress that this would not have happened if they had followed his advice and completely deregulated the banking industry and financial sector in this country. he wanted to urge them to pass a bill totally deregulating the financial sectors in this country by 2010.

I know its sounds like a comedy central spoof . But I swear that is the message Pres. Bush sent to congress when it became apparent how bad this credit crunch and sub prime mess was going to be.

If I didn't know the man is a liar I would just think he was mentally retarded.

[AYFR]

Neo con right wing so called Christians do it all the time.

For instance a pre emptive war goes against every teaching of Christs . Yet the fake Christians who don't have a clue what the bible says voted Bush the murder back in in 2004 all the time waving the banner of Christianity . That is a sin.

We seem to have become a nation of people who love to ignore the truth in favor of their own fantasies. Its a real shame when that includes our president.

There may not be much hope for this country .
I sure hope that you are judging righteously.

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Luke 6:37
Judging Others
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven

Not saying that you aren't but remember the judgement you give others will be the standard by which you are also judged.

[wvpeach]

No worries Rev I am completely against pre-emptive wars and dropping bombs on kids to kill them. So I may be judged for other things as falling short. But supporting a immoral war will not be one of those things.

[AYFR]

You do know that we are not purposely trying to kill children.
You seem to have missed the good we have done over there.

And before you say anything I thought going into Iraq was a bad idea in the first place.

[wvpeach]

Any idiot knows when you drop bombs in residential areas your going to kill innocents including children. Even the president admitted he knew this and called the 35,000 estimated dead in the shock and awe initial phase of the war collateral damage and said he was sorry that had to happen but unfortunately that happens in every war...............No duh Mr. Brainiac President.

They knew they were going to be killing innocent people when they dropped those bombs and it was not a last resort act of self defense . Iraqi's were not massing on our border to attack us. The poor Iraqi's they killed probably had never even left the county they were born in. Children killed before they were old enough to fend for themselves. That is what the US government or more particularly Bush and his supporters have done killed a lot of innocent children.

And for what ,for what evidence? Because saddam had given some money to terrorists? Killing those kids did not change that a bit in this world , bad people are still funding other bad people. The saudi's are still funding terrorists and yet Bush holds hands with them. A affront to this nation by the way as far as I am concerned because 19 of the 21 high jackers came from Saudi Arabia . What Good Rev? The president admitted to a estimated 35,000 dead Iraqi's killed accidentally by the US invasion in the first few days of the war. And many more were killed after that before we stopped bombing and looking for the bad guys on the card decks. Bunker buster bombs , boy were we proud we could drop a bomb and it could cut right through the house and into the ground to make sure it killed everybody in that house and maybe 5-6 other houses around it. The evening news had experts every night testifying to how effective and deadly American bombs and weapons were. The nightly news followed bomber jets back on to carriers as they came back from dropping their death rations for that night and the US cheered . It was disgusting.

We will be in Iraq for decades now . The good that was done you say Rev? Again the evil outweighs the good. Every person, every man,woman and child in Iraq has been touched by death as blood ran in their streets. Tell that to these uneducated people. Tell them that some good came from the death of their child, or their brother or their mother at the hands of a US bomb. I think they will laugh or spit in your face.

We will be in iraq for decades now. Unless the rest of the ME rises up against us and puts us out. Which could happen. In the meantime all we have done in iraq is create a fertile breeding ground for the next generation of terrorists wanting a little pay back against the people who killed their mother or brother. Trust me no good will ever come from Iraq.

[jim]

Hell: it is like the old one: "Having lost sight of our goals, we redoubled our efforts.":rooster The more things fail, the harder they are pushed...:coffee Hell; At this rate all these "profite" will be like on the schoolyard when I was a young boy: We almost measured our "wealth" by how many marbles we had. This will be about what "money" is - if even that, with nothing to back it. Yet...greed provides the guidelines for everything: Wars at the nexus. What about just living??:drevil:rooster

[Trueblue]

That's a great quote, Jim.

Regarding "the good we have done in Iraq", invading Iraq did not meet the criteria for a just war. Therefore, what our nation did was not just a bad idea, it was morally wrong. And knowing now that we were lied into this war makes Bush and Cheney morally culpable, and deserving of imprisonment.

[AYFR]

Any idiot knows when you drop bombs in residential areas your going to kill innocents including children. Even the president admitted he knew this and called the 35,000 estimated dead in the shock and awe initial phase of the war collateral damage and said he was sorry that had to happen but unfortunately that happens in every war...............No duh Mr. Brainiac President.
Any idiot also knows that in war innocents die.
They knew they were going to be killing innocent people when they dropped those bombs and it was not a last resort act of self defense . Iraqi's were not massing on our border to attack us. The poor Iraqi's they killed probably had never even left the county they were born in. Children killed before they were old enough to fend for themselves. That is what the US government or more particularly Bush and his supporters have done killed a lot of innocent children.
Any idiot also knows that in war innocents die.

Even in the Bible when God commanded people into war children and innocents died.



And for what ,for what evidence? Because saddam had given some money to terrorists? Killing those kids did not change that a bit in this world , bad people are still funding other bad people. The saudi's are still funding terrorists and yet Bush holds hands with them. A affront to this nation by the way as far as I am concerned because 19 of the 21 high jackers came from Saudi Arabia . What Good Rev? The president admitted to a estimated 35,000 dead Iraqi's killed accidentally by the US invasion in the first few days of the war. And many more were killed after that before we stopped bombing and looking for the bad guys on the card decks. Bunker buster bombs , boy were we proud we could drop a bomb and it could cut right through the house and into the ground to make sure it killed everybody in that house and maybe 5-6 other houses around it. The evening news had experts every night testifying to how effective and deadly American bombs and weapons were. The nightly news followed bomber jets back on to carriers as they came back from dropping their death rations for that night and the US cheered . It was disgusting.
Saddam ALSO killed thousands upon thousands of innocents. Massed murdered them and then threw them into mass graves.

The good? The people over there are free of a cruel dictator. FREEDOM is worth anything.


We will be in Iraq for decades now . The good that was done you say Rev? Again the evil outweighs the good. Every person, every man,woman and child in Iraq has been touched by death as blood ran in their streets. Tell that to these uneducated people. Tell them that some good came from the death of their child, or their brother or their mother at the hands of a US bomb. I think they will laugh or spit in your face.
There will NOT be war in Iraq for decades.
The evil does NOT outweigh the good.
The Iraqi people themselves say that we have done good.
We will be in iraq for decades now. Unless the rest of the ME rises up against us and puts us out. Which could happen. In the meantime all we have done in iraq is create a fertile breeding ground for the next generation of terrorists wanting a little pay back against the people who killed their mother or brother. Trust me no good will ever come from Iraq.[
You are wrong; good is coming from Iraq.

[Trueblue]

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_02/explosionDM0909_800x560.jpg

[AYFR]

TB we BOTH know that we can BOTH post pictures.
One picture does not mean we have not done good.
Not to mention that your picture does not mean or show that we are the ones that did that. It could as easily have been an IED

[Trueblue]

TB we BOTH know that we can BOTH post pictures.
One picture does not mean we have not done good.
Not to mention that your picture does not mean or show that we are the ones that did that. It could as easily have been an IED

It does not matter who did it. What matters is that it wasn't happening until George went in to fix Iraq.

[AYFR]

It seems to me that all the talk about the war in Iraq is negative, and that's probably because about 90% of what the media presents is negative, or has a negative spin put on it. Well I won't dispute the fact that it was maybe a mistake to go to war in the first place, and that there were no major stock piles of weapons of mass destruction, but there have been plenty of wonderful and amazing things that have happened for those trapped under the regime of an insane dictator, and I just want to take a moment to outline the positive in Iraq.

We ousted a malicious dictator bent on the torture, rape, and murder of his own countrymen and those who would oppose him. No matter what anyone says, Saddam Hussein was an evil man who needed to be dealt with, and so he was. Saddam remained dictator of his country for far too long, instigating a rein of fear. Videos have surfaced that show acts of outright murder, and torture committed by his officials, and in many cases Saddam and his sons would be more then willing to do the dirty work themselves. These acts are of the most horrible kind and should have never been preformed on the most heartless of criminals, much less fourteen year old boys for no more then speaking their mind.

The Iraqi people now have a gift that we take for granted every day of our lives, and that's the gift of freedom! They can live in a world where they can say and do what they want and when they want it. Iraq's people no longer have to live in fear of having their tongues ripped out or cut off due to their opinions. They can write about what they want to in their newspapers and magazines. Iraq is now a free nation, and will remain so, all due to our involvement there.

The economy in Iraq now stabilizing and the people are the ones reaping the benefits, not the government alone. Saddam lived a lavish life of riches and invested all his money into himself and his ideals and those of his immediate party, but now it is the people reaping the benefits of their labors. Iraq's economy is far from stable but it's getting there, and is better now then it was then.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/220079/what_have_we_done_right_in_iraq.html?cat=37


Ø The rehabilitation or rebuild of 4,544 schools
Ø Brought running water to 2.7 million people who didn’t have it before
Ø Allowed three sets of democratic elections and development of a national constitution to occur
Ø Opened up the door for women to go to school and participate in politics – 25% of the parliament is made up of women; that’s the highest percentage of any Arab country
Ø Provided the environment for more than 33,000 new businesses to be established
Ø That in turn has led to what has been called a “booming economy” by Newsweek
Ø The economic growth is broad-based which gives it stability. It is growing in the areas of real estate, construction, retail, wholesale trade, and second-hand sales
Ø Cell phone usage has increased from 1.4 million to 7.1 million people over the last two years and the largest provider, Iraqna has profited $333 million in ’05 and $520 million for ’06 which in turn has created countless jobs
Ø Provided them the environment to allow a 17% GDP growth in 2005 and 13% in 2006; by contrast, ours grows at about 3% to 4%
Ø Allowed the conditions for the average Iraqi salary to increase 100% since ‘03
Ø “Succeeded in creating conditions for small-scale enterprise to succeed” according to Newsweek International
Ø Through our support, the International Monetary Fund, and other countries, our soldiers have completed the water and school projects noted above as well as built or rehabbed 150 primary care clinics and 12 hospitals including the Basrah Children’s Hospital with 8 more planned
Ø They’ve completed 300 electricity projects to restore and provide first time power to many residents there
Ø A railroad maintenance center has been built to support the country’s infrastructure.
Ø They’ve turned Fallujah from a terrorist safe-haven into one of the most peaceful places in the country with a booming local economy
Ø They’ve found a way to work with tribal leaders in Ramadi, one of the most dangerous places in Iraq, maybe even the world, and began eliminating Al Qaeda from there while starting bridge, school, water treatment facilities, community center, and local government reconstruction. It’s become safe to walk down more and more of the streets there everyday.
Ø They’ve paved the way for the Iraqi’s to take full control and responsibility for 3 of 15 provinces now which average less than 1 attack per day, less than crime rates in our own big cities.
Ø They’ve trained 325,000 Iraqi Security Force members and now 80% of all Iraqi Divisions require only limited support from us
Ø They’ve helped the Iraqi’s establish their own Joint HQ Operation Center for control of their Army, Navy, and Air Force
Ø Unearthed and returned to their families over 300,000 sets of human remains from Saddam’s mass graves
Ø And they’ve done all this by and while catching hundreds and thousands of bad guys, securing neighborhoods, finding weapons caches, and killing international terrorists
Ø They’ve done this while trying to positively impact many Iraqi lives at a personal level through personal assistance in off-duty times, school supply, clothing, and toy drives from home, healthcare by Corpsman for sick Iraqi children. Corpsman Chris Walsh from 3/2 as an example started the process to get a sick child with surgical needs back to the states before his death there
http://highplainspatriot.blogspot.com/2007/01/list-of-good-news-from-iraq.html

[AYFR]

It does not matter who did it. What matters is that it wasn't happening until George went in to fix Iraq.

No Saddam would have just gassed them or killed them some other way.

[Trueblue]

No Saddam would have just gassed them or killed them some other way.

You really believe that? There is so much wrong with that idea that it tires me just to think about explaining it.

[jim]

It seems to me that all the talk about the war in Iraq is negative, and that's probably because about 90% of what the media presents is negative, or has a negative spin put on it. Well I won't dispute the fact that it was maybe a mistake to go to war in the first place, and that there were no major stock piles of weapons of mass destruction, but there have been plenty of wonderful and amazing things that have happened for those trapped under the regime of an insane dictator, and I just want to take a moment to outline the positive in Iraq.

We ousted a malicious dictator bent on the torture, rape, and murder of his own countrymen and those who would oppose him. No matter what anyone says, Saddam Hussein was an evil man who needed to be dealt with, and so he was. Saddam remained dictator of his country for far too long, instigating a rein of fear. Videos have surfaced that show acts of outright murder, and torture committed by his officials, and in many cases Saddam and his sons would be more then willing to do the dirty work themselves. These acts are of the most horrible kind and should have never been preformed on the most heartless of criminals, much less fourteen year old boys for no more then speaking their mind.

The Iraqi people now have a gift that we take for granted every day of our lives, and that's the gift of freedom! They can live in a world where they can say and do what they want and when they want it. Iraq's people no longer have to live in fear of having their tongues ripped out or cut off due to their opinions. They can write about what they want to in their newspapers and magazines. Iraq is now a free nation, and will remain so, all due to our involvement there.

The economy in Iraq now stabilizing and the people are the ones reaping the benefits, not the government alone. Saddam lived a lavish life of riches and invested all his money into himself and his ideals and those of his immediate party, but now it is the people reaping the benefits of their labors. Iraq's economy is far from stable but it's getting there, and is better now then it was then.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/220079/what_have_we_done_right_in_iraq.html?cat=37


Ø The rehabilitation or rebuild of 4,544 schools
Ø Brought running water to 2.7 million people who didn’t have it before
Ø Allowed three sets of democratic elections and development of a national constitution to occur
Ø Opened up the door for women to go to school and participate in politics – 25% of the parliament is made up of women; that’s the highest percentage of any Arab country
Ø Provided the environment for more than 33,000 new businesses to be established
Ø That in turn has led to what has been called a “booming economy” by Newsweek
Ø The economic growth is broad-based which gives it stability. It is growing in the areas of real estate, construction, retail, wholesale trade, and second-hand sales
Ø Cell phone usage has increased from 1.4 million to 7.1 million people over the last two years and the largest provider, Iraqna has profited $333 million in ’05 and $520 million for ’06 which in turn has created countless jobs
Ø Provided them the environment to allow a 17% GDP growth in 2005 and 13% in 2006; by contrast, ours grows at about 3% to 4%
Ø Allowed the conditions for the average Iraqi salary to increase 100% since ‘03
Ø “Succeeded in creating conditions for small-scale enterprise to succeed” according to Newsweek International
Ø Through our support, the International Monetary Fund, and other countries, our soldiers have completed the water and school projects noted above as well as built or rehabbed 150 primary care clinics and 12 hospitals including the Basrah Children’s Hospital with 8 more planned
Ø They’ve completed 300 electricity projects to restore and provide first time power to many residents there
Ø A railroad maintenance center has been built to support the country’s infrastructure.
Ø They’ve turned Fallujah from a terrorist safe-haven into one of the most peaceful places in the country with a booming local economy
Ø They’ve found a way to work with tribal leaders in Ramadi, one of the most dangerous places in Iraq, maybe even the world, and began eliminating Al Qaeda from there while starting bridge, school, water treatment facilities, community center, and local government reconstruction. It’s become safe to walk down more and more of the streets there everyday.
Ø They’ve paved the way for the Iraqi’s to take full control and responsibility for 3 of 15 provinces now which average less than 1 attack per day, less than crime rates in our own big cities.
Ø They’ve trained 325,000 Iraqi Security Force members and now 80% of all Iraqi Divisions require only limited support from us
Ø They’ve helped the Iraqi’s establish their own Joint HQ Operation Center for control of their Army, Navy, and Air Force
Ø Unearthed and returned to their families over 300,000 sets of human remains from Saddam’s mass graves
Ø And they’ve done all this by and while catching hundreds and thousands of bad guys, securing neighborhoods, finding weapons caches, and killing international terrorists
Ø They’ve done this while trying to positively impact many Iraqi lives at a personal level through personal assistance in off-duty times, school supply, clothing, and toy drives from home, healthcare by Corpsman for sick Iraqi children. Corpsman Chris Walsh from 3/2 as an example started the process to get a sick child with surgical needs back to the states before his death there
http://highplainspatriot.blogspot.com/2007/01/list-of-good-news-from-iraq.html

What some damn rationalizations:rooster:rooster:sumo

[Lone Laugher]

This says all that needs to be said about your firm position on the subject, Rev:

"Well I won't dispute the fact that it was maybe a mistake to go to war in the first place"

You are a proud citizen of an arrogant nation. In your eyes, nothing the US does can ever JUST BE WRONG can it?

Please....don't answer that...it was a rhetorical question.

[AYFR]

You really believe that? There is so much wrong with that idea that it tires me just to think about explaining it.
He did it while he was alive.
He gassed thousands and let thousands others starve.

[AYFR]

This says all that needs to be said about your firm position on the subject, Rev:

"Well I won't dispute the fact that it was maybe a mistake to go to war in the first place"

You are a proud citizen of an arrogant nation. In your eyes, nothing the US does can ever JUST BE WRONG can it?

Please....don't answer that...it was a rhetorical question.
Um LL I did not write that. Which is why I posted a link.

IMO it WAS wrong to go into Iraq to begin with. No maybe about it.

And I will answer it.
Yes we have done some wrong things
Slavery
Vietnam
American Indians (the way we treated them)

And that is just three, there are lots of other things we have done wrong BUT we have done more good.

[Lone Laugher]

Well....my bad...I missed the link.

Suggestion: Somehow make it known at the beginning of a post that it is a link to some other person's work.


Now...on to your claim that you think it was wrong to go into Iraq to begin with..."no maybe about it".........I call BS!

If you felt that way, you would not have posted two articles that support the opposite view. I will assume that you are in agreement with the article's posted. Therefore, it is clear that YOU WOULD DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN if you had the choice.

Nothing...and I mean NOTHING good that comes out of our involvement in Iraq can ever be attributed to our decision to invade. Iraq was a sovereign nation and we invaded it without provocation. WE ARE IN THE WRONG!!!!!

[Saguaro]

Rev,if having a dictator and killing their own people are arguments for going to war, then how about Darfur,etc.? We need to go there also and start a war,what about Saudi Arabia where women are killed on a daily basis ?

[Matt]

TB we BOTH know that we can BOTH post pictures.
One picture does not mean we have not done good.
Not to mention that your picture does not mean or show that we are the ones that did that. It could as easily have been an IED

No, it seems to take a thousand words to get that message across.

We have not done good for America or the world by waging this pre-emptive attack.

We are all in more danger, have a lesser democracy in our own country, have not been able to truly give Iraq democracy, and we have killed and maimed more Iraqis in 5+ years than Saddam did in a lifetime, not to mention the troops from around the world who tried to help.
Plus we have put a debt on our country that will take generations to handle. In the meantime, our education and infrastructure is going to pot.
The economy was in bad shape long before Bush would admit it. He followed Hoover's methods almost to the letter with the same results.

Back to the title of the thread ~ Feigning ignorance to avoid reality. It's a common malady among the pubs in charge. Appears to affect some of their constituents too.

[AYFR]

Well....my bad...I missed the link.

Suggestion: Somehow make it known at the beginning of a post that it is a link to some other person's work.


Now...on to your claim that you think it was wrong to go into Iraq to begin with..."no maybe about it".........I call BS!

If you felt that way, you would not have posted two articles that support the opposite view. I will assume that you are in agreement with the article's posted. Therefore, it is clear that YOU WOULD DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN if you had the choice.

Nothing...and I mean NOTHING good that comes out of our involvement in Iraq can ever be attributed to our decision to invade. Iraq was a sovereign nation and we invaded it without provocation. WE ARE IN THE WRONG!!!!!I agree with SOME of what they say. I agree that we have done good over there, that does not mean I supported going there in te first place.

Rev,if having a dictator and killing their own people are arguments for going to war, then how about Darfur,etc.? We need to go there also and start a war,what about Saudi Arabia where women are killed on a daily basis ?
I did not say that. I said that one of the good things that came from going to Iraq is ridding the world of Saddam.

I can acknowledge the good that has been done even if I disagreed about going there.
Once we went there and started this mess it became our responsibility to clean it up
No, it seems to take a thousand words to get that message across.

We have not done good for America or the world by waging this pre-emptive attack.
We have done good

We are all in more danger, have a lesser democracy in our own country, have not been able to truly give Iraq democracy,
How many attacks have we had on since the invasion?

According to the Iraqi people they have been liberated and do have a democracy.

and we have killed and maimed more Iraqis in 5+ years than Saddam did in a lifetime, not to mention the troops from around the world who tried to help.
:bs and you know it.

Saddam Hussein

Full name Saddam Hussein al-Majid al-Tikriti. AKA 'Great Uncle', AKA 'Lion of Babylon', AKA 'Lion of Iraq', AKA 'Beast of Baghdad'. Saddam translates to 'One Who Confronts'.

Country: Iraq.

Kill tally: Approaching two million, including between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqi and between 450,000 and 730,000 Iranian combatants killed during the Iran-Iraq War. An estimated 1,000 Kuwaiti nationals killed following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. No conclusive figures for the number of Iraqis killed during the Gulf War, with estimates varying from as few as 1,500 to as many as 200,000. Over 100,000 Kurds killed or "disappeared". No reliable figures for the number of Iraqi dissidents and Shia Muslims killed during Hussein's reign, though estimates put the figure between 60,000 and 150,000. (Mass graves discovered following the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 suggest that the total combined figure for Kurds, Shias and dissidents killed could be as high as 300,000). Approximately 500,000 Iraqi children dead because of international trade sanctions introduced following the Gulf War.
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

Plus we have put a debt on our country that will take generations to handle. In the meantime, our education and infrastructure is going to pot.
The economy was in bad shape long before Bush would admit it. He followed Hoover's methods almost to the letter with the same results.

Back to the title of the thread ~ Feigning ignorance to avoid reality. It's a common malady among the pubs in charge. Appears to affect some of their constituents too.:roll

[Trueblue]

He did it while he was alive.
He gassed thousands and let thousands others starve.

That is not what was going on at the time we invaded.


:bs and you know it.


No, she doesn't know it, or she wouldn't have said it. Do you have evidence to the contrary, or just your little flag to wave around?

[AYFR]

When we invaded he sure was letting his people starve.

[issac the dragon]

We are about to undergo a full press from the government that we have won or at least are on the brink of winning in Iraq. I will always wonder what the heck we have won. The hearts and minds of the Iraqi people? Dream on. They are an occupied nation, someone with a large military security force behind them sticks a microphone in their face and asks, are you better off than under Hussien, and they say no? Sure they do. And the next day they have a nasty accident.

Bush and McBush are going to tell you it is over. We won. We won. We are just mopping up. And of course, we are waiting for the Iraqis to form a government that agrees to suck the American dick for the next century. And it just might work. We are the nation that elected and re-elected Bush. Nothing like winning a war to make you want to keep the creep you've got.

[Trueblue]

:werd

There's an article I wish that I could find about war not being the weapon people thought it would be. If you go into a war to "clean up" a situation, it's not going to work, because it's difficult to back down from force and violence to a normal, positive, productive situation. You keep relying on war and force to get things going, and the other side pushes back.

It's a tactic of last resort. Absolute last resort. You can tell me all you like about how bad Saddam was [and you can even not mention that he got some of his weapons and money from the US], but you can't keep on this shtick about how the US military rescued those people, because it's nonsense. This strategy rearranged the furniture. It didn't fix the nation, because the fix is political, not military.

[Matt]

What some damn rationalizations:rooster:rooster:sumo

Refer to Rev's link at the beginning of this thread. (I goofed in my quote copying)
~~~~
When interviewed, many Iraqi people are saying that they once had power and water and now they have it for two hours a day.
Many have left the country because it is so dangerous to live there.

We have rebuilt the same schools and other buildings more than once.
The accomplishments of one day are often destroyed later.
Same with safety in unsafe areas.
We are paying people to protect their own communities.
If the pay slows down, they revert to the other side.

Many of the things mentioned in that link are refuted by others, oftentimes those living in the areas, instead of some assessment by someone whose job depends on reporting only the positive.

The war was and is a bad mistake that has taken far too long and the accomplishments will never equal the destruction.

It was planned for 'shock and awe'. Nothing beyond that was planned except 'mission accomplished' which was declared when Saddam and bin Laden were still at large.

Many mistakes were made in the beginning. It was the wrong war for the wrong reasons and the wrong people continued to make the same mistakes for years.

And it will take a very, very long time to recover both here and in Iraq ~ no matter who is president.
Death, destruction, and alienation of once friendly countries is a hard wound to heal from.

[Saguaro]

I agree with SOME of what they say. I agree that we have done good over there, that does not mean I supported going there in te first place.


I did not say that. I said that one of the good things that came from going to Iraq is ridding the world of Saddam.

I can acknowledge the good that has been done even if I disagreed about going there.
Once we went there and started this mess it became our responsibility to clean it up

We have done good


How many attacks have we had on since the invasion?

According to the Iraqi people they have been liberated and do have a democracy.


:bs and you know it.


http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

:roll

How many Iraqis have attacked the US ?

[AYFR]

There was the guy that tried to kill Bush Sr.
Saddam was also countlessly firing at our aircraft during their patrols.

Fact is that for some reason or another we have not had a major attack since 9/11 on the US.

[nixon]

No Saddam would have just gassed them or killed them some other way.I'm glad you brought that up. So what does America need to do? Go around the world and look for what we judge to be evil men and hang them? Remember your earlier post, Luke 6:37? I'm pretty sure if you asked other citizens of this planet we share, they would consider OUR leaders evil men.

[Ringo]

Hell: it is like the old one: "Having lost sight of our goals, we redoubled our efforts.":rooster The more things fail, the harder they are pushed...:coffee Hell; At this rate all these "profite" will be like on the schoolyard when I was a young boy: We almost measured our "wealth" by how many marbles we had. This will be about what "money" is - if even that, with nothing to back it. Yet...greed provides the guidelines for everything: Wars at the nexus. What about just living??:drevil:rooster

You know if little Jimmy would hit the fucking Lotto and his MONEY problems were over, we would never hear from Whining Poor Me Jimmy from TN!!! Jimmy suffers from the Liberal disease of ME ME ME, which progresses all the way to your HAND being permantly extended forward and out with the Palm up! You also continually mumble Bush is Bad, the GOP is bad, Ringo is bad..Liberals are good, Girly Boy Liberals are good, as well as Liberal Feminazi's, as long as they GIMME GIMME GIMME, the key to American Greatness!!!:sheep:mw:mw:mw

[Trueblue]

There was the guy that tried to kill Bush Sr.
Saddam was also countlessly firing at our aircraft during their patrols.

Fact is that for some reason or another we have not had a major attack since 9/11 on the US.

The first two are just not sufficient reason to invade another nation and lose lives and treasure.

The third is specious reasoning. We didn't have an attack for many years preceding the invasion, either.

I'm glad you brought that up. So what does America need to do? Go around the world and look for what we judge to be evil men and hang them? Remember your earlier post, Luke 6:37? I'm pretty sure if you asked other citizens of this planet we share, they would consider OUR leaders evil men.

:werd And when it comes to Bush and Cheney, they would be right. That's not partisan exaggeration, that's based on their lies to the public that lead to deaths of our people and the Iraqi people, their approval of torture, and their disrespect for the laws of the nation.

[AYFR]

The first two are just not sufficient reason to invade another nation and lose lives and treasure.
One more time since y'all can't get it throught y'all thick heads
I NEVER SAID IT WAS A GOOD REASON TO INVADE IRAQ
I WAS NEVER IN FAVOR OF GOING TO IRAQ
Clear enough for you.
I was answering a question.

I do believe that we have done good there and I also believe that we should clean up our mess before we leave.


The third is specious reasoning. We didn't have an attack for many years preceding the invasion, either.
Lets see
1993
United States, February 26: World Trade Center bombing kills six and injures over 1000 people, by coalition of five groups: Jamaat Al-Fuqra'/Gamaat Islamiya/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/National Islamic Front,[5] see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives, Ramzi Yousef.

1996
United State, July 27: Centennial Olympic Park bombing, killing one and wounding 111

1998
United States, August 7: U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000, by al-Qaeda, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists

2000
United States, October 12: USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors and wounds 40 off the port of Aden, by al-Qaeda; see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, the Buffalo Six Lackawanna Cell.[6]

These are ALL major attacks on the US
You could include the OK city bombing as well since it is also a terrorist attack.

[Trueblue]

One more time since y'all can't get it throught y'all thick heads
I NEVER SAID IT WAS A GOOD REASON TO INVADE IRAQ
I WAS NEVER IN FAVOR OF GOING TO IRAQ
Clear enough for you.
I was answering a question.

I do believe that we have done good there and I also believe that we should clean up our mess before we leave.

Then get it through your thick head, if you don't want to hear what somebody thinks about it, then don't say it on the board.

Lets see
1993
United States, February 26: World Trade Center bombing kills six and injures over 1000 people, by coalition of five groups: Jamaat Al-Fuqra'/Gamaat Islamiya/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/National Islamic Front,[5] see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives, Ramzi Yousef.


Exactly what I was referring to.

1996
United State, July 27: Centennial Olympic Park bombing, killing one and wounding 111

Domestic terrorism, why on earth is this on your list?

1998
United States, August 7: U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000, by al-Qaeda, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists

2000
United States, October 12: USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors and wounds 40 off the port of Aden, by al-Qaeda; see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, the Buffalo Six Lackawanna Cell.[6]

These are ALL major attacks on the US
You could include the OK city bombing as well since it is also a terrorist attack.

Are you claiming that the Rudolphs and McVeighs are being deterred by the war in Iraq?

As for the others, which were on foreign soil, many other attacks have occurred on foreign soil since 9/11, so what is your point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_March_2004_Madrid_train_bombings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Glasgow_International_Airport_attack

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Terrorist_attacks_in_Iraq

[AYFR]

Then get it through your thick head, if you don't want to hear what somebody thinks about it, then don't say it on the board.
I did not say oin the board that I supported the inital going into Iraq, y'all just keep putting that in my mouth,






Domestic terrorism, why on earth is this on your list?
Because it was a terrorist attack.







Are you claiming that the Rudolphs and McVeighs are being deterred by the war in Iraq?
I am claiming that since we have been Iraq along with implementing other safeguards we have not had a major terrorist attack. Because of the terrorist and the war in Iraq we have inplemented certain security procedures that have kept us safe.


As for the others, which were on foreign soil, many other attacks have occurred on foreign soil since 9/11, so what is your point?

They were MAJOR attacks against the US


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_March_2004_Madrid_train_bombings


Not against the US


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings
Again Not against the US

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings)Again Not against the US


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Glasgow_International_Airport_attack
Again Not against the US

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Terrorist_attacks_in_Iraq
We are at war in Iraq that is why there are attacks there.

Which is the reason we are not attacked here.

[Matt]

And that's how America wins friends and influences the world. As long as the attacks are NOT on our soil, it's okay with us.
Would we be safer if we kept a hefty war going somewhere else all of the time?

What do you deem a terrorist attack?
There appears to be an arson fire in Austin right now.
Does this constitute terrorism?
What level must it reach to be terrorism?
The first bombing of the twin towers was because of the first Bush war. They were caught and tried and we had no more attacks there until another Bush got into the White House.
Had he been as willing to listen to the information being supplied to him re: a potential U S attack as he was to listen to the info about Saddam, it's very possible the towers would still be standing.

The only reason things are going better in Iraq now is because the Dems took control of Congress in 2006 and the president was pressured by his own until he got rid of Rumsfeld, which had been recommended from early on.
So thank the Dems. Bush had said just weeks before that he had no intention of replacing Rumsfeld ~ he was the decider!

[AYFR]

The presidents number one job is to insure the safety of AMERICANS.

I also said MAJOR terrorist attack.

Make up your mind, either the Dems have control of Congress or they do not. If the Dems get the praise for Iraq doing well now then they also must take the flak for the economy AFTER they took office.

[Trueblue]

I did not say oin the board that I supported the inital going into Iraq, y'all just keep putting that in my mouth,

No, you keep bringing it up.






Because it was a terrorist attack.


But it's silly to include it. Invading Iraq didn't make us safe from the Rudolphs and McVeighs.




I am claiming that since we have been Iraq along with implementing other safeguards we have not had a major terrorist attack. Because of the terrorist and the war in Iraq we have inplemented certain security procedures that have kept us safe.


That is specious reasoning.

They were MAJOR attacks against the US

Again, how does invading Iraq protect us from McVeigh?

Not against the US



Again Not against the US
Again Not against the US
Again Not against the US

We are at war in Iraq that is why there are attacks there.

Which is the reason we are not attacked here.

That is insane. It presumes that there are a finite number of terrorists in the world, and they are all distracted in Iraq.

Those nations include some of our closest allies. Isn't the magic charm of invading Iraq working for them? After all, they helped invade Iraq, so why are they being attacked?

[AYFR]

No, you keep bringing it up. I do not, I RARELY bring up the initial invasion.
I keep talking about the good we have done in Iraq and you keep telling me that because I do that I supported the invasion.

I am bringing up the good we have done and are doing(you know the PRESENT) while you keep trying to live in the past.

Just because a person can see the good in something does not mean they supported it from the beginning.

I know that concept is hard for you to grasp but that is reality.

But it's silly to include it. Invading Iraq didn't make us safe from the Rudolphs and McVeighs. Ok fine, but it has made us safer none-the-less





That is specious reasoning.
No it is logic based on facts.






That is insane. It presumes that there are a finite number of terrorists in the world, and they are all distracted in Iraq.

Those nations include some of our closest allies. Isn't the magic charm of invading Iraq working for them? After all, they helped invade Iraq, so why are they being attacked?
It is easier to get to those nations from Iraq then to the US, you have to fly here, but you can just drive there.

[AYFR]

No, you keep bringing it up. I do not, I RARELY bring up the initial invasion.
I keep talking about the good we have done in Iraq and you keep telling me that because I do that I supported the invasion.

I am bringing up the good we have done and are doing(you know the PRESENT) while you keep trying to live in the past.

Just because a person can see the good in something does not mean they supported it from the beginning.

I know that concept is hard for you to grasp but that is reality.

But it's silly to include it. Invading Iraq didn't make us safe from the Rudolphs and McVeighs. Ok fine, but it has made us safer none-the-less





That is specious reasoning.
No it is logic based on facts.






That is insane. It presumes that there are a finite number of terrorists in the world, and they are all distracted in Iraq.

Those nations include some of our closest allies. Isn't the magic charm of invading Iraq working for them? After all, they helped invade Iraq, so why are they being attacked?
It is easier to get to those nations from Iraq then to the US, you have to fly here, but you can just drive there.


Oh BTW there is a finite number of terrorists. Seeing as there is a finite number of people that is the logical conclusion.

[Saguaro]

No Rev, there are NOT finite numbers of terrorists,they are being born right this minute in Iraq,Saudi Arabia,etc

[AYFR]

There is a finite number.
There only so many people on this planet.

6,672,952,089 (estimate)
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/popclockworld.html

If there is a finite number of people it bears (logically) to reason that there is in turn a finite number of terrorists.

[AYFR]

Now can we get all of them no but there is a finite number of them.

[Trueblue]

I do not, I RARELY bring up the initial invasion.
I keep talking about the good we have done in Iraq and you keep telling me that because I do that I supported the invasion.

Where, exactly did I do that?

I am bringing up the good we have done and are doing(you know the PRESENT) while you keep trying to live in the past.


Nonsense. I'm trying to tell you that the good that has been done doesn't alter the reality.

I know that concept is hard for you to grasp but that is reality.

Yeah, you're great with reality. :roll

Ok fine, but it has made us safer none-the-less

Prove it.



No it is logic based on facts.

Nope, look up specious reasoning.

It is easier to get to those nations from Iraq then to the US, you have to fly here, but you can just drive there.

:twitch

There is a finite number.
There only so many people on this planet.

6,672,952,089 (estimate)
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/popclockworld.html

If there is a finite number of people it bears (logically) to reason that there is in turn a finite number of terrorists.

:lmao

[AYFR]

Where, exactly did I do that?

Here
That's a great quote, Jim.

Regarding "the good we have done in Iraq", invading Iraq did not meet the criteria for a just war. Therefore, what our nation did was not just a bad idea, it was morally wrong. And knowing now that we were lied into this war makes Bush and Cheney morally culpable, and deserving of imprisonment.
and here
The first two are just not sufficient reason to invade another nation and lose lives and treasure.

The third is specious reasoning. We didn't have an attack for many years preceding the invasion, either.



:werd And when it comes to Bush and Cheney, they would be right. That's not partisan exaggeration, that's based on their lies to the public that lead to deaths of our people and the Iraqi people, their approval of torture, and their disrespect for the laws of the nation.
I never said it was reason for the attack but somehow you keep trying to insinuate that I did.


Nonsense. I'm trying to tell you that the good that has been done doesn't alter the reality.
The reality is the PAST is gone and we can do NOTHING to change it. Whether it was right of wrong we invaded Iraq, that is a FACT that cannot be changed. What we can do in the present is to try and clean up Iraq and we can acknowledge the good that is happening.



Yeah, you're great with reality. :roll

Apparently better then you, living in the past is not reality.

Prove it.
Easy, NO ATTACKS





Nope, look up specious reasoning.

I know what it means, specious means pleasing but deceptive and I am not being deceptive I am giving facts.

specious
1. apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments.
2. pleasing to the eye but deceptive.
3. Obsolete. pleasing to the eye; fair.


You are the one being deceptive by not acknowledging the goos that is being done and by not acknowledging that we are safer.

[Trueblue]

I'm not trying to insinuate anything about you personally, I was making a general statement of fact.

And you are using specious reasoning.

http://www.nickdavis.com/node/36

Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm!
Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]

[nixon]

Here

and here

I never said it was reason for the attack but somehow you keep trying to insinuate that I did.



The reality is the PAST is gone and we can do NOTHING to change it. Whether it was right of wrong we invaded Iraq, that is a FACT that cannot be changed. What we can do in the present is to try and clean up Iraq and we can acknowledge the good that is happening.





Apparently better then you, living in the past is not reality.


Easy, NO ATTACKS





.

I know what it means, specious means pleasing but deceptive and I am not being deceptive I am giving facts.

specious
1. apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments.
2. pleasing to the eye but deceptive.
3. Obsolete. pleasing to the eye; fair.


You are the one being deceptive by not acknowledging the goos that is being done and by not acknowledging that we are safer.We were attacked after 9/11. But we forgot about it, no one was ever brought to justice. http://www.gwu.edu/~cih/anthraxinfo/public/publicthreat_attacks.htm

[AYFR]

I'm not trying to insinuate anything about you personally, I was making a general statement of fact.

And you are using specious reasoning.

http://www.nickdavis.com/node/36

That would be true IF we haven't, using the proceedures we adopted, thwarted several attempted attacks.

Logic dictates that if they are over there then they cannot be over here. Unless suddenly a person can be at two places at the same time.

[AYFR]

We were attacked after 9/11. But we forgot about it, no one was ever brought to justice. http://www.gwu.edu/~cih/anthraxinfo/public/publicthreat_attacks.htm

I did not forget I said MAJOR attacks.
That was not considered a major attack.

[Trueblue]

That would be true IF we haven't, using the proceedures we adopted, thwarted several attempted attacks.

Logic dictates that if they are over there then they cannot be over here. Unless suddenly a person can be at two places at the same time.

Several attacks were also thwarted during the Clinton years.

Your second sentence is an example of poor reasoning. Again, you pretend that there are a finite number of terrorists.

[issac the dragon]

I think the reason, or part of the reason there have been no major attacks on this country is because they could not do as much damage to us as Bush is doing by himself. He is recuriting for them. He is making other countries despise us.

We don't show them, but the anti-Americans in the world broadcast the pictures of the dead Iraqis every day. Where my paper shows a daily count of US dead, theirs show a daily count of Iraqi dead.

To attack us would rally the American people around Bush, and stop us from attacking our own government. It would stop the fragmentation of the people here.

It isn't the only reason, but I think it is one part.

[Saguaro]

There is a finite number.
There only so many people on this planet.

6,672,952,089 (estimate)
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/popclockworld.html

If there is a finite number of people it bears (logically) to reason that there is in turn a finite number of terrorists.


:sag :sag :sag

[nixon]

I did not forget I said MAJOR attacks.
That was not considered a major attack. What do you consider major? If you are a man of God as your name would imply, isn't one lost life major? In the Cole attack, seventeen lives were lost. That is major, but five lives in the anthrax attacks weren't? Clinton was president during the one you want to consider major and Bush was president during the one you don't.

[jim]

What do you consider major? If you are a man of God as your name would imply, isn't one lost life major? In the Cole attack, seventeen lives were lost. That is major, but five lives in the anthrax attacks weren't? Clinton was president during the one you want to consider major and Bush was president during the one you don't.

Typical beating of the dead horse:deadhorse...Yep: Republicanism is DEAD for today's needs:godzilla:brr

[AYFR]

What do you consider major? If you are a man of God as your name would imply, isn't one lost life major? In the Cole attack, seventeen lives were lost. That is major, but five lives in the anthrax attacks weren't? Clinton was president during the one you want to consider major and Bush was president during the one you don't.

The President in office had nothing to do with my statement.

Yes each life lost counts and is a major loss.

And go ahead and consider them then BUT I said that we were made safe AFTER the invasion and implementation of certain proceedures

This attack was in 2001

[AYFR]

Typical beating of the dead horse:deadhorse...Yep: Republicanism is DEAD for today's needs:godzilla:brr

Don't you ever have anything constructive to add to a debate.

A man your age should be full of wisdom and knowledge.


Oh well I uploaded a smiley just for you
:jim

: jim

[Lone Laugher]

Since when have Americans become such scaredy cats? This cry to be made safe from terrorists and these false claims that we are now safer just make me shake my head in wonder.

The security measures that "Homeland Security" has established are nothing but a pacifier.

This is a land of freedom. With that freedom comes a wider opportunity for nutjobs to accomplish something horrific.

What intereste me is how other similarly free countries that have practically no military power and employ standard immigration and police procedures somehow escape the ire of terrorists. Answer that and I believe you have found the answer to our terror problem.

[Trueblue]

Since when have Americans become such scaredy cats? This cry to be made safe from terrorists and these false claims that we are now safer just make me shake my head in wonder.

The security measures that "Homeland Security" has established are nothing but a pacifier.

This is a land of freedom. With that freedom comes a wider opportunity for nutjobs to accomplish something horrific.

What intereste me is how other similarly free countries that have practically no military power and employ standard immigration and police procedures somehow escape the ire of terrorists. Answer that and I believe you have found the answer to our terror problem.

:werd

[AYFR]

Since when have Americans become such scaredy cats? This cry to be made safe from terrorists and these false claims that we are now safer just make me shake my head in wonder.

The security measures that "Homeland Security" has established are nothing but a pacifier.

This is a land of freedom. With that freedom comes a wider opportunity for nutjobs to accomplish something horrific.

What intereste me is how other similarly free countries that have practically no military power and employ standard immigration and police procedures somehow escape the ire of terrorists. Answer that and I believe you have found the answer to our terror problem.
Exactly which nations are those???

[Lone Laugher]

How many do you want? How about the obvious ones:

Canada
Japan
Australia
New Zealand

C'mon Rev. Find the data that proves me wrong...it will make you a better man.

[jim]

Don't you ever have anything constructive to add to a debate.

A man your age should be full of wisdom and knowledge.Oh well I uploaded a smiley just for you
:jim

: jim

Well I do have a little of that - If more of you could keep up - I get shouted down every time I offer anything constructive...Some of it would be "constructive criticism" for sure...but constructive...Nope this modus vivendi is obsolete...I stick to my guns on this one...:rooster

[AYFR]

How many do you want? How about the obvious ones:

Canada
Japan
Australia
New Zealand

C'mon Rev. Find the data that proves me wrong...it will make you a better man.

Canada
http://www.isthatlegal.org/archives/2006/09/oh_canada_not_s.html
Terrorism in Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_Canada

Terrorism in New Zealand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_New_Zealand

Terrorism in Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_Japan


That is just a small portion, I will add more later.

The only country that is on that list that is even close is Australia but even they do not get all the freedoms we get.

[AYFR]

Well I do have a little of that - If more of you could keep up - I get shouted down every time I offer anything constructive...Some of it would be "constructive criticism" for sure...but constructive...Nope this modus vivendi is obsolete...I stick to my guns on this one...:rooster

Do you like your sign?

[Lone Laugher]

Canada
http://www.isthatlegal.org/archives/2006/09/oh_canada_not_s.html
Terrorism in Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_Canada

Terrorism in New Zealand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_New_Zealand

Terrorism in Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorism_in_Japan


That is just a small portion, I will add more later.

The only country that is on that list that is even close is Australia but even they do not get all the freedoms we get.

Very, very weak. You know it. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Trueblue]

Very, very weak. You know it. You should be ashamed of yourself.

That's how this works. Somehow the war in Iraq made it less likely that the Montana Militia will attack here in the US. I guess we are just supposed to roll with that.

[patriotsblade]

Since when have Americans become such scaredy cats? This cry to be made safe from terrorists and these false claims that we are now safer just make me shake my head in wonder.

The security measures that "Homeland Security" has established are nothing but a pacifier.

This is a land of freedom. With that freedom comes a wider opportunity for nutjobs to accomplish something horrific.

What intereste me is how other similarly free countries that have practically no military power and employ standard immigration and police procedures somehow escape the ire of terrorists. Answer that and I believe you have found the answer to our terror problem.

Bingo. Give this man a prize.

[Matt]

:clap:flowers

:jim The new convert, Bush, has been trying to make this happen since he came into office.
I think the world would be safer if he had continued delving into the intricate delights of Jack.

[toxic]

If Terrorists came to America ...

It certainly seems that all the Chickenhawks would welcome a chance to finally serve America ... you know, without having to get off of the couch.

I am always baffled how the Chickenhawks figure these invaders would manage to operate in our neighborhoods without our knowledge :rofl

[Trueblue]

I know a woman who suspects that Obama might be a Manchurian Candidate. For real. He might have somehow slipped past the notice of the Secret Service, the FBI, and the CIA, and be negotiating to blow us all up. She has a four year college degree, which generally indicates at least normal reasoning ability. :(

[jim]

I know a woman who suspects that Obama might be a Manchurian Candidate. For real. He might have somehow slipped past the notice of the Secret Service, the FBI, and the CIA, and be negotiating to blow us all up. She has a four year college degree, which generally indicates at least normal reasoning ability. :(

I have seen a many of 'em it didn't stop from being crazy though:rooster especially Republicans:rooster

[AYFR]

That's how this works. Somehow the war in Iraq made it less likely that the Montana Militia will attack here in the US. I guess we are just supposed to roll with that.
Thewar combined with the implementing of certain state side proceedures.

The reason the the Iraq war has done so is because we are over there at war with terrorists and since we are we have increased security here to prevent any possible backlash.

[AYFR]

LL it was not weak

You stated
What intereste me is how other similarly free countries that have practically no military power and employ standard immigration and police procedures somehow escape the ire of terrorists. Answer that and I believe you have found the answer to our terror problem.

I showed you that they did not.

[Lone Laugher]

Sure you did. Go on believing that. You showed nothing.

The easier argument for you would have been the point on standard immigration procedures....since I did not do much research on that...it is more of an educated guess. The terrorism point is a sure loser for you when it comes to the nations mentioned. I wonder how I knew you would focus on that?

[AYFR]

Why is it a loser?

You said they escaped the the ire of terrorists and I showed you you that they have not.
They have had terrorist attacks.

Not to mention I have yet begun to get to the actual freedoms that you say are equal to ours of these nations.

I was addressing that you said they basiclly have not terrorist attacks first.

[Lone Laugher]

Rev. It is clearly a loser. The paltry list of terrorist attacks in those countries that you provided shows that they DO NOT have a terror problem.

Of course, you will not accept this truth and you will tell me that even one terror attack is evidence of a terror problem.

Please use intellectual honesty...it makes for much better discussions.