Lesbian kisses at game ignite Seattle debate

[Saguaro]

SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- Most of the time, a kiss is just a kiss in the stands at Seattle Mariners games. The crowd hardly even pays attention when fans smooch.

But last week, a lesbian complained that an usher at Safeco Field asked her to stop kissing her date because it was making another fan uncomfortable.

The incident has exploded on local TV, on talk radio and in the blogosphere and has touched off a debate over public displays of affection in generally gay-friendly Seattle.

"Certain individuals have not yet caught up. Those people see a gay or lesbian couple and they stare or say something," said Josh Friedes of Equal Rights Washington. "This is one of the challenges of being gay. Everyday things can become sources of trauma."

As the Mariners played the Boston Red Sox on May 26, Sirbrina Guerrero and her date were approached in the third inning by an usher who told them their kissing was inappropriate, Guerrero said.

The usher, Guerrero said, told them he had received a complaint from a woman nearby who said that there were kids in the crowd of nearly 36,000 and that parents would have to explain why two women were kissing.

"I was really just shocked," Guerrero said. "Seattle is so gay-friendly. There was a couple like seven rows ahead making out. We were just showing affection."

On Monday, Mariners spokeswoman Rebecca Hale said that the club is investigating but that the usher was responding to a complaint of two women "making out" and "groping" in the stands.

"We have a strict non-discrimination policy at the Seattle Mariners and at Safeco Field, and when we do enforce the code of conduct it is based on behavior, not on the identity of those involved," Hale said.

The code of conduct -- announced before each game -- specifically mentions public displays of affection that are "not appropriate in a public, family setting." Hale said those standards are based on what a "reasonable person" would find inappropriate.

Guerrero denied she and her date were groping each other, saying that along with eating garlic fries, they were giving each other brief kisses.

On Tuesday, Guerrero said a Mariners director of guest services had apologized to her. The team spokeswoman could not immediately confirm that.

After the story broke, the Mariners were blasted by the sex-advice columnist Dan Savage, who wrote about the incident on the blog of the Stranger, an alternative weekly paper.

"I constantly see people making out," Savage said. "My son has noticed and asked, 'Do they show the ballgame on women's foreheads?'"

Savage called for a "kiss-in" to protest against the Mariners.

Web sites have been swamped with blog postings for and against Guerrero and her date. And the story has people talking in Seattle.

"I would be uncomfortable" seeing public displays of affection between lesbians or gay men, said Jim Ridneour, a 54-year-old taxi driver. "I don't think it's right seeing women kissing in public. If I had my family there, I'd have to explain what's going on."

"It all depends on the degree," Mark Ackerman said as he waited for a hot dog outside Safeco Field before Wednesday's game. "Even for heterosexual couples."

Since the incident, Guerrero's job and her past have come under scrutiny. She works at a bar known for scantily clad women and was a contestant on the MTV reality show "A Shot at Love With Tila Tequila," in which women and men compete for the affection of a bisexual Internet celebrity.

"People are saying it's 15 more minutes for my career," Guerrero said of the ballpark furor, "but this is not making me look very good."

In 2007, an Oregon transit agency chief apologized after a lesbian teenager was kicked off a bus when a passenger complained about her kissing another girl.

Also in 2007, a gay rights group protested a Kansas City, Missouri, restaurant they said ejected four women because two of them kissed, and a Texas state trooper was placed on probation in 2004 for telling two gay men who were kissing at the state Capitol that homosexual conduct was illegal in Texas.

"There's a double standard. That's the bottom line," said Pat Griffin, director of the It Takes a Team! Education Campaign, an initiative from the Women's Sports Foundation to eliminate homophobia in sports.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/05/seattle.kiss.ap/index.html

[Sweet Tart]

:shakehead

[Saguaro]

That "other" fan could have just looked away, the dummy

[patriotsblade]

:pissed It's like people having to stand in the back of the bus all over again. :soapbox

[Oceanbreeze]

"The code of conduct -- announced before each game -- specifically mentions public displays of affection that are "not appropriate in a public, family setting." Hale said those standards are based on what a "reasonable person" would find inappropriate."

[Sweet Tart]

I'm a reasonable person :shrug

[Sweet Tart]

:hide

[toxic]

Same old crap from gays.

They aren't happy unless they are shoving their abnormal lifestyle down everyone else's throat.

That is just why they get the shit beat out of themselves periodically.

This is just more proof that they are unsuitable to be parents.

[nixon]

Let them have their fun.

[Saguaro]

Same old crap from gays.

They aren't happy unless they are shoving their abnormal lifestyle down everyone else's throat.

That is just why they get the shit beat out of themselves periodically.

This is just more proof that they are unsuitable to be parents.

How the heck is kissing shoving something down hetrosexuals' throats ? They have just as much right to do that as others.
Would you say the same thing about a man and woman kissing in public ?

[toxic]

How the heck is kissing shoving something down hetrosexuals' throats ? They have just as much right to do that as others.
Would you say the same thing about a man and woman kissing in public ?

Nobody cares about a discrete peck on the lips, but if you want to fondle and grind - get a room.

The article described other gay couples "making out" and the subject couple described repetitive activity and refusal to stop so complaining parents wouldn't have to explain their perversion to children at the statium. Sounds like butt kicking time to me.

BTW, here in Texas, Disturbing the Peace includes activities intended to obiviously offend and provoke others. So ... if similar couples get their butt kicked around here, they may find they are the criminal and the good samaritan that kicked their butt protected by the law.

[Saguaro]

You read your own feelings into the article

[Oceanbreeze]

Nobody cares about a discrete peck on the lips, but if you want to fondle and grind - get a room.

It's actually been a good teaching tool for our kids. When they point it out, we ask them, don't they look disrespectful for the whole world to see? Extreme PDA is disgusting. Remember "Risky Business" with Tom Cruise and the infamous train scene. :yuck Do you really want to have to watch that with children?

[John Gault]

That "other" fan could have just looked away, the dummy

They could just get a f**king room and save the tougue dance for later.

[Saguaro]

:roll

[John Gault]

:pissed It's like people having to stand in the back of the bus all over again. :soapbox

What crap, asking to people not to climb down eachother throats in public (no matter the 'orientation') is not discriminatory.

I, myself, would not like to have to explain to my 7 year old sone why 2 girls are all over each other like that.

[toxic]

It's actually been a good teaching tool for our kids. When they point it out, we ask them, don't they look disrespectful for the whole world to see? Extreme PDA is disgusting. Remember "Risky Business" with Tom Cruise and the infamous train scene. :yuck Do you really want to have to watch that with children?

Sure, who wants to get burden with Sex Ed for you kids, just because some people want to be exhibitionists at a baseball game!

Now if a couple of Lesbians want to get it on at a club, then fine, but I may want to watch or make it a 3-some. :)

[Partyless]

Dateline had a segment on public display by same sex couples - they had two men and two women on a park bench in different cities. What struck me was that more people objected to two men than two women - in fact, a group of businessmen sat and gawked at the two women and one even approached them to talk to them.

Excessive PDA by any couple is ridiculous. But I've seen more drunken hetrosexual couples at games and events start groping and being inappropriate than I've ever seen same sex couples do. We did have two women in front of us at the circus back when DD was 3 who got pretty rowdy and randy kissing and swearing at some things - but my DH very nicely asked that they speak quieter when they were both swearing so loudly - he didn't say squat about them kissing. They apologized and were nothing but gracious after that.

As for explaining to kids why two women are kissing - why is that an issue? So we always explain why a man and a woman are kissing? My DD has a friend who has two mothers; we watched that season of Amazing Race with the 'married minister' lesbian couple; and she's heard me make comments about gay marriage - she knows that some men love other men and some women love other women and that's just how it is - no different than the way I love my DH. The more kids we teach this, the less discrimination and hatred there will be in the world later!

[Oceanbreeze]

Dateline had a segment on public display by same sex couples - they had two men and two women on a park bench in different cities. What struck me was that more people objected to two men than two women - in fact, a group of businessmen sat and gawked at the two women and one even approached them to talk to them.

Excessive PDA by any couple is ridiculous. But I've seen more drunken hetrosexual couples at games and events start groping and being inappropriate than I've ever seen same sex couples do. We did have two women in front of us at the circus back when DD was 3 who got pretty rowdy and randy kissing and swearing at some things - but my DH very nicely asked that they speak quieter when they were both swearing so loudly - he didn't say squat about them kissing. They apologized and were nothing but gracious after that.

As for explaining to kids why two women are kissing - why is that an issue? So we always explain why a man and a woman are kissing? My DD has a friend who has two mothers; we watched that season of Amazing Race with the 'married minister' lesbian couple; and she's heard me make comments about gay marriage - she knows that some men love other men and some women love other women and that's just how it is - no different than the way I love my DH. The more kids we teach this, the less discrimination and hatred there will be in the world later!

I agree with you 100%. But this has to do with all extreme PDA.

[Saguaro]

The people most vehemently opposed to this are reading things into the article that aren't there !

[patriotsblade]

The people most vehemently opposed to this are reading things into the article that aren't there !

:yep

[Partyless]

I agree with you 100%. But this has to do with all extreme PDA.

Well yeah - I got that. Extreme PDA by any couple is too much. But I think people are more inclined to define "extreme' differently if it's same sex versus hetero. Last Braves game I went to, there was a very drunk hetero couple basically dry humping and no one said squat. In fact, the guys behind us were practically drooling watching them. Had that been two women those same guys would have had boners - had that been two guys, they've had been ready to kick ass. It makes no sense!

[cassandra]

I can't stand people who make other people's lives their business.

[AYFR]

This was not and is not a gay issue no matter how much it is tried to be made into one.

This is a PDA issue and whether it is a gay couple or a hetro couple that kind of crap is wrong.

You want to suck your partners tongue out the fine but do it in private and not in front of the public and especially not in front of children.

There are laws and rules against excessive PDA and the stadium has said rule against it.

Medved called it a publicity stunt and I have to agree with him.

[Oceanbreeze]

This was not and is not a gay issue no matter how much it is tried to be made into one.

This is a PDA issue and whether it is a gay couple or a hetro couple that kind of crap is wrong.

You want to suck your partners tongue out the fine but do it in private and not in front of the public and especially not in front of children.

There are laws and rules against excessive PDA and the stadium has said rule against it.

Medved called it a publicity stunt and I have to agree with him.

:woot agreed. :woot

[cassandra]

This was not and is not a gay issue no matter how much it is tried to be made into one.

This is a PDA issue and whether it is a gay couple or a hetro couple that kind of crap is wrong.

You want to suck your partners tongue out the fine but do it in private and not in front of the public and especially not in front of children.

There are laws and rules against excessive PDA and the stadium has said rule against it.

Medved called it a publicity stunt and I have to agree with him.

Oh my goodness. It is just not possible to look the other way for people. Seriously. THey weren't naked they were kissing.

You have got to be crazy if you think that if you and your wife were making out in the stands that day you would have been treated the same.
:shakehead

[AYFR]

Me and my wife would NOT be making out in the stands. We have better manners then that.

[Oceanbreeze]

Me and my wife would NOT be making out in the stands. We have better manners then that.

Agreed, likewise, the same here. :woot

It's a PDA issue, not a gay issue.

[BartonX]

:pissed It's like people having to stand in the back of the bus all over again. :soapbox

You're right those were the good ole days! :snicker

[BartonX]

:yep

Those that are not condemning this as a Public Display Of Perversion are incapable of common sense. Open displays of homosexuality should be a. Homosexuality is not acceptable and no society has ever survived that has such a low mentality as to embrace this perverted act as normal. Wrong is wrong, live with it!!!

[cassandra]

Me and my wife would NOT be making out in the stands. We have better manners then that.

I would never make out with someone publicly as well but it seems you missed my point.

If you did have a lapse of jugement you would not have been treated the same.

[Viki]

:pics

[patriotsblade]

:lol

[Sweet Tart]

Viki :lmao

[AYFR]

I would never make out with someone publicly as well but it seems you missed my point.

If you did have a lapse of jugement you would not have been treated the same.

The stadium has rules against PDA and if a hetro couple were making out and reported it would be treated the same.

While the person that reported it may have done it because they were gay (I don't know and neither does anyone else) the response from the stadium was an enforcement of their rule and NOT because the couple was gay.

[MW]

Reminds me of when Indigo was in her Senior year of school. She was one of the first ones on the bus and sat up front. Another girl sat in front of her, and Indigo would braid her hair in the morning on the way to school. (Remember, they are sitting in two SEPARATE seats on the school bus)

One morning, the bus driver pulls over, and publicly and loudly berates Indigo and her friend - telling her that was inappropriate behavior on HIS bus. Of course, Indigo is looking at the driver like he's lost it and says "I'm just braiding her hair." His reply was "We all know what hair braiding leads to!"

Now mind you, NOTHING was said to the hetrosexual couple in the back of the bus, who had been making out, groping, etc.

Hell yeah I went to the school and lit into the Principal, I told him that the only thing wrong with what Indigo and her friend was doing was what was going on in mind of the dirty old man who drove the bus and he needed to apologize to my daughter and her friend as publicly and loudly as he had embarrassed them!

The driver was taken off that route that day. He never did apologize . . . but he's around the community . . so his day will come. :snicker (Momma will embarrass him just as badly one day)

Anyway, I think that a fuss was made over this couple, that wouldn't have bother had it been a heterosexual couple.

[patriotsblade]

The stadium has rules against PDA and if a hetro couple were making out and reported it would be treated the same.

While the person that reported it may have done it because they were gay (I don't know and neither does anyone else) the response from the stadium was an enforcement of their rule and NOT because the couple was gay.

Really? Are you sure that PDA is not permitted or even promoted by the the Seattle Mariners management? Is that why they have a "kiss cam" that scans the crowd looking for couples who are smooching to be shown on the Jumbotron? Hmmmmm?

http://www.armchairgm.com/Article:%22Kiss_Cam%22_Almost_Gets_Lesbians_Kicked _Out_of_Mariners_Game

http://activeblognews.net/sports/lesbian-kiss-too-much-for-the-seattle-mariners-fans-kiss-cam-abc/

I hope this couple sues the Mariners into the next century.

[AYFR]

PB there is a difference in a peck and trying to suck your partners tongue out.
The report was that they were groping and going at it very heavily.

A peck, small kiss is OK but beyond that NO.

[Oceanbreeze]

It hasn't made youtube as of today or I googled it wrong.
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=Lesbian+Kiss+Too+Much+for+Sea ttle+Fans&search_type=&aq=-1&oq=


MW; sorry that happened to your daughter.
PB; I personally don't like any extreme PDA. It's violation against my rights as well.

[patriotsblade]

PB there is a difference in a peck and trying to suck your partners tongue out.
The report was that they were groping and going at it very heavily.

A peck, small kiss is OK but beyond that NO.

1. The hetero couples doing this aren't just giving small pecks either. These couples actually compete over the best kisses to be displayed on the the Jumbotron.

2. The "report" came from one individual who was offended. Why is this person more credible than the couple who were kissing?

[patriotsblade]

Throw them all OUT!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RXz9jx-1Yik

[Oceanbreeze]

I haven't been to a base ball game, actually the Orioles, since 2002, I didn't know there was a web cam.

[AYFR]

Those were small kisses NOT groping and sucking tongue.

There is a difference a BIG difference.

[patriotsblade]

The alleged groping and sucking tongue. You are reading more than what is there. No facts were established in the article Reverend.

[toxic]

The alleged groping and sucking tongue. You are reading more than what is there. No facts were established in the article Reverend.


Actually that was the complaint. They probably left out the part that they were Butch and Ugly.

... On Monday, Mariners spokeswoman Rebecca Hale said that the club is investigating but that the usher was responding to a complaint of two women "making out" and "groping" in the stands. ...

We have all seen it. Gays are always trying to gross people out and impose their poor judgment on others.

[Saguaro]

NOT in this article

[cassandra]

The stadium has rules against PDA and if a hetro couple were making out and reported it would be treated the same.

While the person that reported it may have done it because they were gay (I don't know and neither does anyone else) the response from the stadium was an enforcement of their rule and NOT because the couple was gay.

I would love to wear your rose colored glasses for just a couple of minutes. If they had been a male/female couple there never would have been a complaint. People may have scoffed but there wouldn't have been a formal complaint until they took their clothes off.

Really? Are you sure that PDA is not permitted or even promoted by the the Seattle Mariners management? Is that why they have a "kiss cam" that scans the crowd looking for couples who are smooching to be shown on the Jumbotron? Hmmmmm?

Great point
!

PB; I personally don't like any extreme PDA. It's violation against my rights as well.

Please explain what guaranteed right this goes against. LIfe? No Liberty? No Pursuit of Happiness? Hmm you could avert your eyes or close them.

Seriously people chose to be offended at this.

1. The hetero couples doing this aren't just giving small pecks either. These couples actually compete over the best kisses to be displayed on the the Jumbotron.

2. The "report" came from one individual who was offended. Why is this person more credible than the couple who were kissing?

Absolutely agree.

Those were small kisses NOT groping and sucking tongue.

There is a difference a BIG difference.

My goodness, were you there? Did you read a different article than I did. I cannot find anything about this groping and how far their tongues were in each other's mouths.


We have all seen it. Gays are always trying to gross people out and impose their poor judgment on others.

You have got to be kidding. Maybe they just felt love for each other and wanted to express it and didn't give a hooey about whether or not it would offend your sensibilities. Ever had a passionate moment in your life where you just let it all go. Maybe that was them.

[BartonX]

I agree with you 100%. But this has to do with all extreme PDA.

With the "A" in PDA stands for affliction. :LL
Juz Publicly dizplayin afflictions! :rofl

[Oceanbreeze]

"On Monday, Mariners spokeswoman Rebecca Hale said that the club is investigating but that the usher was responding to a complaint of two women "making out" and "groping" in the stands."

[Juju]

It's a shame you guys can't see your own double standards.

For those of you who are anti-gay, I'd recommend becoming friends with a gay person just once in your life. Every homophobe I've known has changed their opinion after getting to know a gay person well.

I'm also willing to bet that if we dug into this issue, religion would be at the root of it. This just shows that religion teaches intolerance.

[patriotsblade]

"On Monday, Mariners spokeswoman Rebecca Hale said that the club is investigating but that the usher was responding to a complaint of two women "making out" and "groping" in the stands."

That's my whole point OB. A complaint by one person in the stands. Again, why is this one person more credible than the couple in question. If there really was a problem why wasn't there even more complaints?

You have deemed these folks guilty based on an anonymous complaint from one person out of the no doubt dozens seated around them.

[My Winter Storm]

Interesting that one person can make a complaint and blow an entire situation out of proportion. I am not saying that is what happened, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I find it hard to believe that these two women were 'groping' and 'making out'. The occasional kiss is nothing to be bothered about, whether the couple in question are heterosexual or homosexual. I would not condone any couple making out in public - I do believe that should be reserved for somewhere more private - but sharing a few 'light' kisses is hardly something to kick up a fuss about.

The fact that one person complained tells us something important about this situation. It tells us that, while everyone else in that stadium was (rightly) focused on the game in progress, one person was distracted.
Did they choose to continue gazing upon this couple? This person had more than enough time to look away, and focus on the game, yet they chose to make an official complaint.

This person should be ashamed of themselves. Surely there are more important things in life to worry about than a loving couple showing affection for one another?

[Sweet Tart]

It's a shame you guys can't see your own double standards.

For those of you who are anti-gay, I'd recommend becoming friends with a gay person just once in your life. Every homophobe I've known has changed their opinion after getting to know a gay person well.

I'm also willing to bet that if we dug into this issue, religion would be at the root of it. This just shows that religion teaches intolerance.

That's my whole point OB. A complaint by one person in the stands. Again, why is this one person more credible than the couple in question. If there really was a problem why wasn't there even more complaints?

You have deemed these folks guilty based on an anonymous complaint from one person out of the no doubt dozens seated around them.

Interesting that one person can make a complaint and blow an entire situation out of proportion. I am not saying that is what happened, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I find it hard to believe that these two women were 'groping' and 'making out'. The occasional kiss is nothing to be bothered about, whether the couple in question are heterosexual or homosexual. I would not condone any couple making out in public - I do believe that should be reserved for somewhere more private - but sharing a few 'light' kisses is hardly something to kick up a fuss about.

The fact that one person complained tells us something important about this situation. It tells us that, while everyone else in that stadium was (rightly) focused on the game in progress, one person was distracted.
Did they choose to continue gazing upon this couple? This person had more than enough time to look away, and focus on the game, yet they chose to make an official complaint.

This person should be ashamed of themselves. Surely there are more important things in life to worry about than a loving couple showing affection for one another?

:yep :yep & :yep