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View Full Version : Sweep of polygamists' kids raises legal questions


Wabash
04-25-2008, 11:50 PM
Apr 25, 6:04 PM (ET)

By MICHELLE ROBERTS

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - The state of Texas made a damning accusation when it rounded up 462 children at a polygamous sect's ranch: The adults are forcing teenage girls into marriage and sex, creating a culture so poisonous that none should be allowed to keep their children.

But the broad sweep - from nursing infants to teenagers - is raising constitutional questions, even in a state where authorities have wide latitude for taking a family's children.

The move has the appearance of "a class-action child removal," said Jessica Dixon, director of the child advocacy center at Southern Methodist University's law school in Dallas.

"I've never heard of anything like that," she said.

Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, contends that the state has essentially said, "If you're a member of this religious group, then you're not allowed to have children."

Attorneys for the families and civil-liberties groups also are crying foul. They say the state should not have taken children away from all church members living at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado.

Church members said that not all of them practice polygamy, and some form traditional nuclear families. One sect member whose teenage son is now in foster care testified that she is a divorced single mother.

"Of course, we condemn child abuse and we don't stand up for the perpetration of that," said Lisa Graybill, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas. But "what the state has done has offended a pretty wide swath of the American people with what appears to be an overreaching action to sweep up all these children."

State and local officials had been eyeing the sect suspiciously since it bought the ranch in 2003 and moved hundreds of its members in. They raided the property April 3, with heavy weapons and SWAT vehicles, after a female claiming to be a 16-year-old girl at the ranch called a family violence shelter and said her 49-year-old husband beat and raped her. That girl has not yet been identified.

State officials searched for a week for evidence of sexual abuse and rounded up all the children into mass shelters. As of Friday, the children had all been bused to foster group homes hundreds of miles away; only nursing infants still have their mothers with them.

Texas law has a "very low burden for removal of children from a parent's home, at least temporarily," Dixon said.

But state authorities are supposed to keep the children in their homes unless "a person of ordinary prudence and caution" believes there's a continuing and immediate danger to their safety.

"There was a systematic process going on to groom these young girls to become brides," said CPS spokesman Darrell Azar, noting that the state had no way to protect from possible future abuse if they stayed on the ranch.

"Removal is always the last option," he said. "In this case, there was no other choice."

CPS officials have conceded there is no evidence the youngest children were abused, and about 130 of the children are under 5. Teenage boys were not physically or sexually abused either, according to evidence presented in a custody hearing earlier last week, but more than two dozen teenage boys are also in state custody, now staying at a boys' ranch that might typically house troubled or abandoned teens.

Two teenage girls are pregnant, and although identities and ages have been difficult to nail down, CPS officials say no more than 30 minor girls in state custody have children. It's not clear how many other adolescent girls may be among the children shipped to foster facilities.

The sect believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven and its leader Warren Jeffs is revered as a prophet. Jeffs was convicted last year in Utah of forcing a 14-year-old girl into marriage with an older cousin.

Constitutional experts say U.S. courts have consistently held that a parent's beliefs alone are not grounds for removal.

"The general view of the legal system is until there is an imminent risk of harm or actual harm, you can't do that," said UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh.

Lawyers for the FLDS parents and civil rights groups complain that a chaotic mass custody hearing last week prevented state District Judge Barbara Walther from hearing any individual stories that might have led her to allow some parents to keep their children.

One FLDS member who did testify said she and her husband and their three children form a traditional family and live in a separate house from other sect members. An FLDS expert who testified at the hearing and a former member of the sect say only about half the marriages in the sect are polygamous.

Walther agreed to keep all the children in state custody after 21 hours of testimony in a hearing involving hundreds of lawyers.

"That's the hard thing about this. They want to paint everyone with the same brush," said Shelly Greco, an attorney who represents several children in the case.

An appellate court in Austin is scheduled to hold a hearing Tuesday on a motion filed by dozens of mothers to get their children back. Walther has said each mother will get an individual hearing by June 5.

If there was an underage mother in every home, the state might be able to make its case for removal of all the children, Dixon said, but it's likely that once individual hearings are held, some of the children may be headed back to their parents.

Another legal issue may emerge if investigators discover the call from the 16-year-old girl was a hoax.

Authorities are investigating whether the calls came from a woman in Colorado who has a history of making fake calls, but CPS officials and legal experts say the outcome of that investigation will likely have little bearing on the custody case, given that authorities went to the ranch believing the calls were legitimate and then found possible evidence of abuse.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080425/D9095CA81.html

I said this from day one.....

patriotsblade
04-26-2008, 12:26 AM
I have a legal question. How long do you sit around and do nothing while children are being molested by creepy old guys right under your nose?

Trueblue
04-26-2008, 06:12 AM
One FLDS member who did testify said she and her husband and their three children form a traditional family and live in a separate house from other sect members. An FLDS expert who testified at the hearing and a former member of the sect say only about half the marriages in the sect are polygamous.

Yep, because the ratio of male to female births is close to equal. Only the more powerful men get to have multiple wives.

Many of the teenage boys are tossed out as competition. :mad

Ringo
04-27-2008, 07:09 AM
I have a legal question. How long do you sit around and do nothing while children are being molested by creepy old guys right under your nose?

Probably the same amount of time you wait to do anything about mistreated, abused, neglected kids, being raised by Fat Welfare chicks, whose existence is drug & welfare related! You know that BLOCK of Dem Voters called the Entitlement gang!! Your Country is full of these types too, but that is normal for a Liberal Socialist cesspool like Norway!!

Now if You & TB's best shot is whether I BACK these people, YOU BOTH KNOW I DON'T, but there are going to be some mother-children issues here, and YOU so-called compassionate people should be looking at that!!:charge:tb

Ringo
04-27-2008, 07:11 AM
Yep, because the ratio of male to female births is close to equal. Only the more powerful men get to have multiple wives.

Many of the teenage boys are tossed out as competition. :mad

You like Teen Age boys TB??:tb:mw

Saguaro
04-27-2008, 08:10 AM
Ok Ringo, enough with the insults. This is a moderated forum

Lone Laugher
04-27-2008, 09:19 AM
Apr 25, 6:04 PM (ET)

By MICHELLE ROBERTS

SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - The state of Texas made a damning accusation when it rounded up 462 children at a polygamous sect's ranch: The adults are forcing teenage girls into marriage and sex, creating a culture so poisonous that none should be allowed to keep their children.

But the broad sweep - from nursing infants to teenagers - is raising constitutional questions, even in a state where authorities have wide latitude for taking a family's children.

The move has the appearance of "a class-action child removal," said Jessica Dixon, director of the child advocacy center at Southern Methodist University's law school in Dallas.

"I've never heard of anything like that," she said.

Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, contends that the state has essentially said, "If you're a member of this religious group, then you're not allowed to have children."

Attorneys for the families and civil-liberties groups also are crying foul. They say the state should not have taken children away from all church members living at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado.

Church members said that not all of them practice polygamy, and some form traditional nuclear families. One sect member whose teenage son is now in foster care testified that she is a divorced single mother.

"Of course, we condemn child abuse and we don't stand up for the perpetration of that," said Lisa Graybill, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas. But "what the state has done has offended a pretty wide swath of the American people with what appears to be an overreaching action to sweep up all these children."

State and local officials had been eyeing the sect suspiciously since it bought the ranch in 2003 and moved hundreds of its members in. They raided the property April 3, with heavy weapons and SWAT vehicles, after a female claiming to be a 16-year-old girl at the ranch called a family violence shelter and said her 49-year-old husband beat and raped her. That girl has not yet been identified.

State officials searched for a week for evidence of sexual abuse and rounded up all the children into mass shelters. As of Friday, the children had all been bused to foster group homes hundreds of miles away; only nursing infants still have their mothers with them.

Texas law has a "very low burden for removal of children from a parent's home, at least temporarily," Dixon said.

But state authorities are supposed to keep the children in their homes unless "a person of ordinary prudence and caution" believes there's a continuing and immediate danger to their safety.

"There was a systematic process going on to groom these young girls to become brides," said CPS spokesman Darrell Azar, noting that the state had no way to protect from possible future abuse if they stayed on the ranch.

"Removal is always the last option," he said. "In this case, there was no other choice."

CPS officials have conceded there is no evidence the youngest children were abused, and about 130 of the children are under 5. Teenage boys were not physically or sexually abused either, according to evidence presented in a custody hearing earlier last week, but more than two dozen teenage boys are also in state custody, now staying at a boys' ranch that might typically house troubled or abandoned teens.

Two teenage girls are pregnant, and although identities and ages have been difficult to nail down, CPS officials say no more than 30 minor girls in state custody have children. It's not clear how many other adolescent girls may be among the children shipped to foster facilities.

The sect believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven and its leader Warren Jeffs is revered as a prophet. Jeffs was convicted last year in Utah of forcing a 14-year-old girl into marriage with an older cousin.

Constitutional experts say U.S. courts have consistently held that a parent's beliefs alone are not grounds for removal.

"The general view of the legal system is until there is an imminent risk of harm or actual harm, you can't do that," said UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh.

Lawyers for the FLDS parents and civil rights groups complain that a chaotic mass custody hearing last week prevented state District Judge Barbara Walther from hearing any individual stories that might have led her to allow some parents to keep their children.

One FLDS member who did testify said she and her husband and their three children form a traditional family and live in a separate house from other sect members. An FLDS expert who testified at the hearing and a former member of the sect say only about half the marriages in the sect are polygamous.

Walther agreed to keep all the children in state custody after 21 hours of testimony in a hearing involving hundreds of lawyers.

"That's the hard thing about this. They want to paint everyone with the same brush," said Shelly Greco, an attorney who represents several children in the case.

An appellate court in Austin is scheduled to hold a hearing Tuesday on a motion filed by dozens of mothers to get their children back. Walther has said each mother will get an individual hearing by June 5.

If there was an underage mother in every home, the state might be able to make its case for removal of all the children, Dixon said, but it's likely that once individual hearings are held, some of the children may be headed back to their parents.

Another legal issue may emerge if investigators discover the call from the 16-year-old girl was a hoax.

Authorities are investigating whether the calls came from a woman in Colorado who has a history of making fake calls, but CPS officials and legal experts say the outcome of that investigation will likely have little bearing on the custody case, given that authorities went to the ranch believing the calls were legitimate and then found possible evidence of abuse.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080425/D9095CA81.html

I said this from day one.....


Great going Wabby! What would we all do without you here to predict the future. Maybe we can learn something from you....let me try:

Hmmmmmmm...Wabby will, at some point in the near future, claim that he was the first person on here to say something a looooooong time ago...thereby claiming clairvoyance.

Saguaro
04-27-2008, 09:31 AM
LL, this is a moderated forum,insults are not allowed

nixon
04-27-2008, 09:34 AM
LL, this is a moderated forum,insults are not allowedHow is that an insult? Lone Laugher is also predicticting the future. He, too, is a "Clairvoyant".

Lone Laugher
04-27-2008, 09:35 AM
OK. If that insulted anyone....I apologize.

Ringo
04-27-2008, 04:12 PM
OK. If that insulted anyone....I apologize.

Wait let me look into Sags Crystal Ball and see if it did or not??:borg

BartonX
04-27-2008, 05:56 PM
Wait let me look into Sags Crystal Ball and see if it did or not??:borg

What I have a problem with is this whole case is illegal as hell and sets a dangerous precedent. What happened to "Guilty until proven innocent?" What happened to "Illegal seizure?"

All we have is hearsay and a media reporting thses people did awful things........ where is the trial that proved this???

What if these government bastards burst into your home and carted you and all of your neighbors off like cattle and labeled you as devil worshipers and cannibals???

That is not how America works nor should it be allowed to be. We saw what these socialist pricks did at Ruby Ridge when they blew an innocent mothers brains out as she held her baby, they slaughter the families 12 year old son and killed the family dog. And they burned women and children alive at Wacco.

Where is the outcry against the murderous Clintons??? Why aren't all of them keeping Charlie manson company??? Why am I asking these things and not you? Because ya'll are desensitized to it.

Trueblue
04-27-2008, 06:08 PM
The people who are the most likely to demand the death of child molesters keep defending this case of child molestation.

Clearly, the girls over twelve were either being molested or were in danger of being molested.

Why is that okay?

BartonX
04-27-2008, 06:15 PM
The people who are the most likely to demand the death of child molesters keep defending this case of child molestation.

Clearly, the girls over twelve were either being molested or were in danger of being molested.

Why is that okay?

Until there is a trial proving all of this crap all we have is accusations nothing has been proven. There is even reason to suspect that these people were turned in by someone outside of their group not one of them as was originally reported.

The people that demand most that child molesters be put to death want it proven first not alleged and then when it is proven dispose of the perpetrator not before it is proven. That is the natural way to resolve the issue.

You're just becoming hard hearted, Hannah! :rofl

Trueblue
04-27-2008, 06:21 PM
The babies are proof. This is how these folks live. The men take multiple underaged wives and they throw out the teenage boys. It's wrong. Period.

Wabash
05-04-2008, 09:34 AM
May 3, 3:38 AM (ET)

May 3, 3:38 AM (ET)
ELDORADO, Texas (AP) - An arrest warrant has been dropped for a man thought to be the husband of a teenage girl whose report of abuse triggered a raid on a polygamous sect's Texas compound, authorities said Friday.

A Texas Department of Public Safety spokesman would not say why the warrant was dropped for Dale E. Barlow, 50, who lives in Colorado City, Ariz. Barlow has denied knowing the 16-year-old girl who called a crisis center.

The girl reported that she was a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and that she was beaten and raped at the sect's Eldorado ranch.

An investigation led to the April 3 raid, in which state welfare workers took 463 children living at the Yearning For Zion Ranch. A boy was born to one of the sect's mothers Tuesday; he and the other children remain in state custody.

Authorities have not located the 16-year-old girl and are investigating the source of the call.

Public Safety spokesman Tom Vinger would not say when the warrant for Barlow was dropped, only that "it is no longer active."

Rob Parker, an FLDS spokesman, said the dropped warrant shows the weakness of the state's case against residents of the ranch.

"I think that's just one more piece of evidence that the whole basis on which this raid was premised was unfounded and was inadequately checked out, to the formulation of what basically amounted to an army that went in there and took their children," Parker said.

The phone number used to call the crisis center is the same one once used by a Colorado woman, identified as 33-year-old Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs, accused of making previous false reports of abuse.

Investigators have not said whether Swinton made the call to Texas authorities, though Vinger said she is "still considered a person of interest."

"There is an investigation centering on that," Vinger said. "We have quite a bit of evidence that still needs to be analyzed."

A judge has ruled that children removed from the ranch should stay in state custody until all can have a hearing.

Child welfare officials told the judge the children were living in an authoritarian environment that left girls at risk of sexual abuse and raised boys to become sexual perpetrators.

The FLDS is a group that splintered from the Mormon Church, which does not recognize the sect and disavows polygamy.

In Utah, members of the polygamous church have asked the state's governor to intervene in its fight with Texas authorities over the custody the children.

A letter written by FLDS elder Willie Jessop says Texas officials are rejecting Utah-issued birth certificates and other documents as "fake."

The letter asks Gov. Jon Huntsman to exercise his executive authority to assist in protecting the civil rights of native Utahns and FLDS members. FLDS parents claim they have been denied their due process by the Texas courts.

"Without your leadership and personal intervention in this matter, the parental rights of every Utah family is at risk," Jessop wrote.

Huntsman spokeswoman Lisa Roskelly said the governor has been in contact with Jessop and was reviewing his request.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080503/D90E1EFO1.html