How do you negotiate

[AYFR]

with religious extremists that kill and blow themselves up in the name of Allah, God or whomever?

How can you negotiate with people that walk into a marketplace and then proceed to blow themselves up taking lots of innocent civilians with them?

How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?

How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?

Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.

IMO you can't, the same way you can negotiate with people that protest soldiers funerals, blow abortion clinics up, destroy property in the name of the environment.

Some people cannot be reasoned with.

[Trueblue]

Why are you asking us? Ask these guys:

http://static.flickr.com/25/58930236_2f86bff17c.jpg

Rumsfeld and Saddam

http://www.ired.com/pix/news/mkt/bush%20and%20putin%20-2005.jpg

Bush and Putin

[AYFR]

I am asking everyone.

[toxic]

with religious extremists that kill and blow themselves up in the name of Allah, God or whomever?

How can you negotiate with people that walk into a marketplace and then proceed to blow themselves up taking lots of innocent civilians with them?

How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?

How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?

Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.
....


You left out the Isreali Government that sent helicopter gunships to fire missiles into civilian neighborhoods and then applaud the women and children Palestianas that were killed.

Let's review the latest round of fighting:
- Israel cuts off border access, supplies and power to Gaza.
- Palestineians knock down border wall and get help fro Egypians.
- Palestinians respond by firing crude rockets that hurt no one.
- Israel sends helicopter gunships to attack civiian neighborhoods and kill 100 Palestineians, including women and children.
- Palestinians respond by firing more crude rockets that kill one Jew.
- Israel has more attacks in Gaza, killing more Palestineians (I lost count).
- Some Arab uses sucicide bomb to kill several Jews.

The antagonist who started this seems to be the fking Israelis to me.

[patriotsblade]

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa70/patriotsblade/Hero.gif

IDF soldier negotiates with the enemy.

[Saguaro]

with religious extremists that kill and blow themselves up in the name of Allah, God or whomever?

How can you negotiate with people that walk into a marketplace and then proceed to blow themselves up taking lots of innocent civilians with them?

How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?

How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?

Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.
IMO you can't, the same way you can negotiate with people that protest soldiers funerals, blow abortion clinics up, destroy property in the name of the environment.

Some people cannot be reasoned with.

How do you know ,unless you try ?

[Semantics]

You can't negotiate with people who are motivated by religion. Period.

They are incapable of rational thought.

I don't think that religion is the root of all evil, but it is the root of a lot of it.

[Trueblue]

People motivated by religion have done a lot of good, too.

These bombers aren't motivated by religion, they are motivated by power and control.

[April15]

People motivated by religion have done a lot of good, too.

These bombers aren't motivated by religion, they are motivated by power and control.I would suspect destitute poverty for most. Nothing to live for. Easy to push them into suicide.

[Trueblue]

Some of them seem to have money. In Palestine, they are motivated by poverty, but what about the 9/11 bombers and the guys who drove the cars into the airport in London?

[April15]

Some of them seem to have money. In Palestine, they are motivated by poverty, but what about the 9/11 bombers and the guys who drove the cars into the airport in London?
Good point! Indoctrinated to the max I guess.

[Trueblue]

Some of them claim to be motivated by the poverty and injustice that they see practiced by the Western nations in the Middle East. But how do they expect such a tactic to work? It makes no sense. They want to wrest control away from the West and give it to the East, but it just increases the problem.

[nixon]

I am asking everyone. I think Ron Paul had it right. Once someone is willing to strap a bomb across their chest it is too late. We need to try to understand what makes someone do something that radical, where is the seed planted, where do the issues of hating us really begin? As some in our own government would have you beleive, they hate us for our freedoms. Little by little we are losing those freedoms, and when they are gone, what reason will we be told that they hate us then? The reality is we meddle in everyone else's affairs. Blowback. Ask yourself why those airplanes hit U.S. targets, and not any in Canada. Per capita there are probably more Christians there than in the U.S. As far as negotiating is concern, Bush said he doesn't negotiate with terrorist. And that is where our problem begins. Nixon.

[AYFR]

I love how this suddenly became Israel's fault.
Toxic and Pb instead of blaming people please answer the question of HOW you negotiate with them.

Sag how do you try if you don't know how?

[Trueblue]

I think Ron Paul had it right. Once someone is willing to strap a bomb across their chest it is too late. We need to try to understand what makes someone do something that radical, where is the seed planted, where do the issues of hating us really begin? As some in our own government would have you beleive, they hate us for our freedoms. Little by little we are losing those freedoms, and when they are gone, what reason will we be told that they hate us then? The reality is we meddle in everyone else's affairs. Blowback. Ask yourself why those airplanes hit U.S. targets, and not any in Canada. Per capita there are probably more Christians there than in the U.S. As far as negotiating is concern, Bush said he doesn't negotiate with terrorist. And that is where our problem begins. Nixon.

:werd

[patriotsblade]

I think Ron Paul had it right. Once someone is willing to strap a bomb across their chest it is too late. We need to try to understand what makes someone do something that radical, where is the seed planted, where do the issues of hating us really begin? As some in our own government would have you beleive, they hate us for our freedoms. Little by little we are losing those freedoms, and when they are gone, what reason will we be told that they hate us then? The reality is we meddle in everyone else's affairs. Blowback. Ask yourself why those airplanes hit U.S. targets, and not any in Canada. Per capita there are probably more Christians there than in the U.S. As far as negotiating is concern, Bush said he doesn't negotiate with terrorist. And that is where our problem begins. Nixon.

:yep :clap

[toxic]

I love how this suddenly became Israel's fault.
Toxic and Pb instead of blaming people please answer the question of HOW you negotiate with them.

Sag how do you try if you don't know how?

Humm, I have a picture of Jewish teenage children kicking and pulling the cloths of an old Arab, woman as the IDF stands by and does nothing. It appears we don't have a way to insert attachments anymore?

Anyway.

Perhaps the Jews should convert the State of Israel to a Muslim State, give all the property back they stole, give the Palistineians contol of all the water, money, weapons and military. Essentially reverse the situation.

I'm sure this would improve their insight into the situation and open several new paths for engagement.

[AYFR]

Humm, I have a picture of Jewish teenage children kicking and pulling the cloths of an old Arab, woman as the IDF stands by and does nothing. It appears we don't have a way to insert attachments anymore?

Anyway.

Perhaps the Jews should convert the State of Israel to a Muslim State, give all the property back they stole, give the Palistineians contol of all the water, money, weapons and military. Essentially reverse the situation.

I'm sure this would improve their insight into the situation and open several new paths for engagement.
Whatever, since you can't or won't answer the question your posts here are not relevant.

You do not give a way to negotiate you just put all of the blame on Israel, and you do that with lies and propaganda. Take your hatred of Israel OFF MY DAMN THREAD.

This thread was not and is not about ISRAEL it is about HOW you negotiate with terrorists. ALL terrorists not just Muslim terrorists.

[Trueblue]

Rev, you can't order people off your thread.

[AYFR]

I can make a suggestion.

I CAN tell him to stay on topic.

SO toxic STAY ON TOPIC

[Trueblue]

Let me ask you-how do you not at least try to negotiate to end conflict?

Negotiate doesn't mean let yourself be blown up, it means sitting down and trying to work out a peace.

[AYFR]

TB that is fine, BUT how do you negotiate with a religious fanatical that believes they are doing God's Allah's, etc..... will.

Trying is all fine and well but I we don't figure our how then it will not work.

See all I hear is either to fight or negotiate BUT never how to fight them or how to negotiate with them.

Saying you are going to do something to all fine and well but if you do not know how then your exercise is futile.

[toxic]

Whatever, since you can't or won't answer the question your posts here are not relevant.

You do not give a way to negotiate you just put all of the blame on Israel, and you do that with lies and propaganda. Take your hatred of Israel OFF MY DAMN THREAD.

This thread was not and is not about ISRAEL it is about HOW you negotiate with terrorists. ALL terrorists not just Muslim terrorists.

First, fuck you and your religious fantasy of what has happened in the Palestine.

Second, you imply in your starting post that the Palestineians are the problem and don't want to negotiate.

Your statement is flawed, as I pointed out in my reply.

It is the Jews that are causing the trouble by creating a RELIGIOUS state that is totally contrary to the people who were displaced from their own property by the stinking Jews.

The Jews don't want to negotiate, they want to slaughter Arab women and childred just as they did last week to the applause of Christians like YOU.

[AYFR]

First, fuck you and your religious fantasy of what has happened in the Palestine.

Second, you imply in your starting post that the Palestineians are the problem and don't want to negotiate.

Your statement is flawed, as I pointed out in my reply.

It is the Jews that are causing the trouble by creating a RELIGIOUS state that is totally contrary to the people who were displaced from their own property by the stinking Jews.

The Jews don't want to negotiate, they want to slaughter Arab women and childred just as they did last week to the applause of Christians like YOU.
First apparently you cannot read.
My FIRST post was this

with religious extremists that kill and blow themselves up in the name of Allah, God or whomever?

How can you negotiate with people that walk into a marketplace and then proceed to blow themselves up taking lots of innocent civilians with them?

How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?

How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?

Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.

IMO you can't, the same way you can negotiate with people that protest soldiers funerals, blow abortion clinics up, destroy property in the name of the environment.

Some people cannot be reasoned with.

NOWHERE in it does it say Palestine or Palestinians.

Second I have NEVER said ANYWHERE that Palestinians did not want to negotiate. I also have NEVER said ALL Palestinians were terrorists.

Third I have not brought "religious anything into the debates about Israel or Palestine.

Fourth the creation of Israel was LEGAL and was not the creation of a "religious state"

Fifth I NEVER applaud the death innocents.

YOU need to get your facts straight. I HAVE proven you wrong over and over and over about Israel.

And lastly this thread is not about Israel or Palestine.

It is about negotiating with terrorists ALL terrorists.
Not all terrorists are in the ME. Some are supposed Christians blowing up abortion clinics, some are supposed Christians protesting military funerals, Some are enviormental radicals burning down houses, some are drug cartels, come are members of IRA, KKK, Arian brotherhood, so not all are Muslim or Jewish.

Get the chip off your shoulder and stay on topic. Not everything is about Israel and Palestine.

[toxic]

First apparently you cannot read.
My FIRST post was this

<<How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?
How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?
Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.>>

NOWHERE in it does it say Palestine or Palestinians.

Second I have NEVER said ANYWHERE that Palestinians did not want to negotiate. I also have NEVER said ALL Palestinians were terrorists.

Third I have not brought "religious anything into the debates about Israel or Palestine.

Fourth the creation of Israel was LEGAL and was not the creation of a "religious state"

Fifth I NEVER applaud the death innocents.

YOU need to get your facts straight. I HAVE proven you wrong over and over and over about Israel.

And lastly this thread is not about Israel or Palestine.

It is about negotiating with terrorists ALL terrorists.
Not all terrorists are in the ME. Some are supposed Christians blowing up abortion clinics, some are supposed Christians protesting military funerals, Some are enviormental radicals burning down houses, some are drug cartels, come are members of IRA, KKK, Arian brotherhood, so not all are Muslim or Jewish.

Get the chip off your shoulder and stay on topic. Not everything is about Israel and Palestine.

First, thanks for the Negative Reputation. Pathetic whiners always do that.

Second, you referenced in YOUR INITIAL MESSAGE sucicide bombers. I don't give a shit if you think are being coy about it. Clearly, Arabs and Palestineians are the only people with SO FEW OPTIONS THAT THEY ARE FORCED TO USE SUCICIDE TECHNIQUES. Although, this is a long honored tradition within various military organizations.

Third, I don't give a fuck how legal you think the RELIGIOUS STATE OF ISRAEL IS. It is against everything AMERICANS believe in, except some jesus freak nutjobs. Please list the other religious states in the world, and you will find the list is one of fanatic murders.

Forth, if you DON'T CONDEM ISRAEL, THEN YOU APPLAUDE THEIR MURDER.

Fifth, you have never made the least bit of logic or sense or proven me wrong on any count.

[cassandra]

People who have no attachment are unable to be reasoned with. They care for nobody, not even themselves. :kickcan

[toxic]

People who have no attachment are unable to be reasoned with. They care for nobody, not even themselves. :kickcan

I presume you meant Social attachment? Level 3?

Also you might include people with no piece of the economic pie. They have nothing to lose also. Level 1 or 2.

http://two.not2.org/psychosynthesis/articles/maslow.gif

[toxic]

This is the picture I wanted to attach earlier.

9K doesn't really allow a picture you can see.

Two jewish kids are in the foreground kicking and pulling the cloths of an Arab woman, as IDF soldiers stand doing nothing a few feet behind her.

407

[AYFR]

First, thanks for the Negative Reputation. Pathetic whiners always do that.
You welcome
Second, you referenced in YOUR INITIAL MESSAGE sucicide bombers. I don't give a shit if you think are being coy about it. Clearly, Arabs and Palestineians are the only people with SO FEW OPTIONS THAT THEY ARE FORCED TO USE SUCICIDE TECHNIQUES. Although, this is a long honored tradition within various military organizations.
Like usual you are WRONG. If you would have READ I listed other terrorist as well and NEVER once said Muslim. You want to think this is just about Palestine but you are WRONG. My posts about sucide bombers was ACTUALLY about what is happening in Iraq dipshit.
Third, I don't give a fuck how legal you think the RELIGIOUS STATE OF ISRAEL IS. It is against everything AMERICANS believe in, except some jesus freak nutjobs. Please list the other religious states in the world, and you will find the list is one of fanatic murders.
Again you are WRONG, never get tired of it do you. America and most Americans support Israel. Israel is NOT a Religious state. BUT there are Religious states out there.
Forth, if you DON'T CONDEM ISRAEL, THEN YOU APPLAUDE THEIR MURDER.
Same could be said that if you done condemn (that is the correct spelling) Palestine then you applaud their murder and slaughter.
Fifth, you have never made the least bit of logic or sense or proven me wrong on any count.
Again you are wrong. you just refuse to see the facts

I understand that you like terrorists and applaud what they do. You must because it you didn't you would condemn them. Must have been a glorious day for you when 9/11 happened, you must just love it when Jews are killed in rocket attacks, you must jump for joy when Phelps and his crew protest a soldiers funeral, you must celebrate when soldiers die in an IED attack.
All these acts of terrorist must make you feel real good don't they.
Since you don't condemn them you must like and applaud them.

[AYFR]

Some really nice people you side with

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/03_02/MummyBomberL_468x468.jpg

[Trueblue]

Some really nice people you side with

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/03_02/MummyBomberL_468x468.jpg

That dog won't hunt, Rev.

[AYFR]

And why not.

[Trueblue]

Because of what we know about what the Israeli soldiers have done, too.

[AYFR]

It was a counter to toxic's accuasation that this is all Israel's fault.
I know that Israel is not completely innocent but then again neither is Palestine regardless of what Toxic says.

Toxic is a racist and a bigot. He is hatefull of Israel and wants their nation gone. He supports the terrorists attacking Israel. He says it should have never been created YET he supports America which if Israel was illegally created then so was America.

This topic is off thread and no one is willing or can answer the question I posed.

[AYFR]

Maybe the new people will answer the original question.

[jim]

Shouldn't we all stop trying to blow the planet apart??? Somewhere???:godzilla:aliens

[Trueblue]

Wasn't the original question rhetorical? You don't think that we can reason with terrorists, under any circumstances. And yet we have negotiated with them, and have seen success.

[AYFR]

TB I am not talking about terrorist leaders of other nations. I am talking about Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorist organizations that are not nations.

Dealing with Iran, N Korea, and Saudia Arabia is different then dealing with Bin Laden and such.

How do you negotiate with them?

[Trueblue]

TB I am not talking about terrorist leaders of other nations. I am talking about Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorist organizations that are not nations.

Dealing with Iran, N Korea, and Saudia Arabia is different then dealing with Bin Laden and such.

How do you negotiate with them?

I don't recall anybody suggesting negotiations with al Qaeda. Who ever said that we should negotiate with bin Laden? Seriously. Who?

Hamas is as legitimate in terms of nations as Kim Jong Il and Khadify.

We have negotiated with NK and Libya, considering that, I don't see why we cannot negotiate with Hamas, and even Hezbolah.

That doesn't mean giving them permission or blessing to blow people up, any more than negotiating with NK meant giving them permission to build more nuclear weapons.

[AYFR]

THen two questions
Hamas nor Hezbullah are not legitimate IMO and the opinion of lots of others but whatever.
One how do you deal with terrorist organizations if you can't negotiate with them?
Two those that you think we can negotiate with how do negoiate with them?

I have NEVER heard anyone that is in favor of negotiations say the HOW.

[Saguaro]

And here I thought Hamas was elected by the people :think

Oh ! That's right they were, but Bush decided he didn't like that, so he chose to ignore the fact

[AYFR]

And here I thought Hamas was elected by the people :think

Oh ! That's right they were, but Bush decided he didn't like that, so he chose to ignore the fact

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[7] Israel,[8] Japan,[9] and the United States,[10] and is banned in Jordan.[11] Australia[12] and the United Kingdom[13] list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization. The European Union lists Hamas as a group 'involved in terrorist attacks' and has implemented restrictive measures against Hamas.[14]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

[Saguaro]

Rev, what does that have to do with the fact they were elected by the people ?

[patriotsblade]

Rev, Here's your answer and then some. You cannot negotiate with people like Bin Laden. I believe that just about everyone realizes this. You have to capture or kill people like Bin Laden but that's only half of the solution because every day more and more little Bin Ladens are springing up. The second part of this is to eradicate the mentality that creates these monsters. This will have to involve the efforts of secular and moderate muslims to do so. Right now what is their motivation to speak up and reign in these nutjobs? What do they have to gain? They have a lot to lose, that's for sure because then they become targets as well. What kind of encouragement do they get from the western world to participate in finding these terrorists and preventing more?
I can tell you this. When they hear the President of the United States call their countries an "axis of evil" or they hear loudmouths in America use words like "Islamo-facists" or when a US soldier uses their Holy Book for target practice they aren't going to be jumping up and down with eagerness to help.

[nixon]

And here I thought Hamas was elected by the people :think

Oh ! That's right they were, but Bush decided he didn't like that, so he chose to ignore the factThank you very much, as I was about to bring that up. We are in Iraq right now "starting a democracy" but what if the Iraqis elect an official we don't like? Do we whipe them off the map again and have the process start over?

[Trueblue]

And here I thought Hamas was elected by the people :think

Oh ! That's right they were, but Bush decided he didn't like that, so he chose to ignore the fact

:werd

Rev, Here's your answer and then some. You cannot negotiate with people like Bin Laden. I believe that just about everyone realizes this. You have to capture or kill people like Bin Laden but that's only half of the solution because every day more and more little Bin Ladens are springing up. The second part of this is to eradicate the mentality that creates these monsters. This will have to involve the efforts of secular and moderate muslims to do so. Right now what is their motivation to speak up and reign in these nutjobs? What do they have to gain? They have a lot to lose, that's for sure because then they become targets as well. What kind of encouragement do they get from the western world to participate in finding these terrorists and preventing more?
I can tell you this. When they hear the President of the United States call their countries an "axis of evil" or they hear loudmouths in America use words like "Islamo-facists" or when a US soldier uses their Holy Book for target practice they aren't going to be jumping up and down with eagerness to help.

Very good.

We negotiate with them the same way that we negotiated with the heads of so-called legitimate governments. What is the difference between negotiating with a USSR government that would like to take over the US and negotiating with a smaller organization like Hamas? None.

[Lone Laugher]

THen two questions
Hamas nor Hezbullah are not legitimate IMO and the opinion of lots of others but whatever.
One how do you deal with terrorist organizations if you can't negotiate with them?
Two those that you think we can negotiate with how do negoiate with them?

I have NEVER heard anyone that is in favor of negotiations say the HOW.

Sometimes things need to be repeated and restated for comprehension to take place.

"One how do you deal with terrorist organizations if you can't negotiate with them?"

With POLICE WORK and STRONG INTELLIGENCE...not with full scale military action. These groups are small and agile. They are not adversly affected by sending in "the troops".

"Two those that you think we can negotiate with how do negoiate with them?"

Provided that the organization also has some political legitimacy........With STRONG INTELLIGENCE and DIPLOMACY....it is no different than negotiating with anyone else.

"I have NEVER heard anyone that is in favor of negotiations say the HOW"

Well...now you have....AGAIN!!!

[AYFR]

Sometimes things need to be repeated and restated for comprehension to take place.

"One how do you deal with terrorist organizations if you can't negotiate with them?"

With POLICE WORK and STRONG INTELLIGENCE...not with full scale military action. These groups are small and agile. They are not adversly affected by sending in "the troops".
So wait till they come here and try and stop them.
OK fine but the police will need a lot more help then what they have. Most police are under-manned.

Persoanlly I don't want them here but hey that's just me.

"Two those that you think we can negotiate with how do negoiate with them?"

Provided that the organization also has some political legitimacy........With STRONG INTELLIGENCE and DIPLOMACY....it is no different than negotiating with anyone else.
OK fine, but you have to get them to stop attacking long enough to try that or it will not work.

What about those that will settle for nothing less then Israel being gone?

Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas


From the inception of Hezbollah to the present,[4][5][46][47][48] the elimination of the State of Israel has been one of Hezbollah's primary goals. Some translations of Hezbollah's 1985 Arabic-language manifesto state that "our struggle will end only when this entity [Israel] is obliterated", however neither the original English translation,[dubious – discuss] nor those found on Hezbollah's website include the statement. In an interview with the Washington Post, Nasrallah said "I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called 'Israel.'"[49] Throughout its history, Hezbollah has made statements and actions against the United States, in part because of the United States' support for Israel.[50]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbullah

[Lone Laugher]

Well....you missed the boat on the police work idea...I DON'T mean local police here in the US, REV....I mean INTERNATIONAL POLICE AGENCIES .......not here, but there. What grade are you in?

You have now added a dimension....what if they will stop at nothing but the destruction of Israel?

That, my friend, in truly conservative terms, is Israel's problem. We should do whatever we can to assist our allies....wherever they may be. But...Israel is a sovereign nation and, as such, is ultimately responsible for it's own defense. I hold Israel in no higehr reghard than I do any other nation that we consider allies. Why do you?

[John Gault]

Why are you asking us? Ask these guys:

http://static.flickr.com/25/58930236_2f86bff17c.jpg

Rumsfeld and Saddam

http://www.ired.com/pix/news/mkt/bush%20and%20putin%20-2005.jpg

Bush and Putin

Is that an answer to the question? Or is it a I know you are but what am I deflection.

The question is:

How do you come to a compromise with people willing to die rather than compromise?

If their goal is your conversion to their religion or you die, where is the 'middle ground'?

The picture of Rummy was from long before the Gulf war in 91. But it was an example of he may be a SOB but he is our SOB. Something our country has always done no matter who the president. As a matter of fact I believe that phrase was coined by FDR.

The other of Putin and Bush is not even applicable to this argument.

try again.

[John Gault]

You left out the Isreali Government that sent helicopter gunships to fire missiles into civilian neighborhoods and then applaud the women and children Palestianas that were killed.

Let's review the latest round of fighting:
- Israel cuts off border access, supplies and power to Gaza.
- Palestineians knock down border wall and get help fro Egypians.
- Palestinians respond by firing crude rockets that hurt no one.
- Israel sends helicopter gunships to attack civiian neighborhoods and kill 100 Palestineians, including women and children.
- Palestinians respond by firing more crude rockets that kill one Jew.
- Israel has more attacks in Gaza, killing more Palestineians (I lost count).
- Some Arab uses sucicide bomb to kill several Jews.

The antagonist who started this seems to be the fking Israelis to me.

So are you anti-israel or anti-semetic?

Seems to me if the terrorists who attack Israel are going to hide amoung innocents, that they are at fault.

[John Gault]

:yep :clap

Not negotiating with terrorist was the policy during the Clinton years as well. It is the proper policy.

If you negotiate with them it validates their tactics and makes them more likely.

[John Gault]

Humm, I have a picture of Jewish teenage children kicking and pulling the cloths of an old Arab, woman as the IDF stands by and does nothing. It appears we don't have a way to insert attachments anymore?

Anyway.

Perhaps the Jews should convert the State of Israel to a Muslim State, give all the property back they stole, give the Palistineians contol of all the water, money, weapons and military. Essentially reverse the situation.

I'm sure this would improve their insight into the situation and open several new paths for engagement.


They stole the land? Really?

That area is like a old toy.

Prior to the Jews having control of it that area was an unrelenting desert. Almost no agriculture, little available water.

Israel is formed, and suddenly every arab country in the world is interested in that tiny area of land.

Screw and the terrorists palestinians who have 22 nations they could live in.

The Palestinians are not wanted in any arab country because they are always trouble makers. The King of Jordon once had thousands killed. Of course that is because 80% of the population of Jordon are palestinians.

You anti-semites are almost sad if your ideas were not so destructive.

[John Gault]

I presume you meant Social attachment? Level 3?

Also you might include people with no piece of the economic pie. They have nothing to lose also. Level 1 or 2.

http://two.not2.org/psychosynthesis/articles/maslow.gif

You get a pice of the pie by not being a terrorist and then earning it.

It cannot be given to you and you cannot take it buy force, unless you are a government.

[John Gault]

Wasn't the original question rhetorical? You don't think that we can reason with terrorists, under any circumstances. And yet we have negotiated with them, and have seen success.

What terrorist have we successfully negotiated with?

[John Gault]

And here I thought Hamas was elected by the people :think

Oh ! That's right they were, but Bush decided he didn't like that, so he chose to ignore the fact

They were indeed elected and to me that just shows what scum the people who elected them are. It re-enforces how democracy is just mob rule when the majority are scum.

[issac the dragon]

You get a pice of the pie by not being a terrorist and then earning it.

It cannot be given to you and you cannot take it buy force, unless you are a government.

If there was even a grain of truth in that statement, George Bush would have ended up living on the street, sleeping in a cardboard box.

[John Gault]

:werd



Very good.

We negotiate with them the same way that we negotiated with the heads of so-called legitimate governments. What is the difference between negotiating with a USSR government that would like to take over the US and negotiating with a smaller organization like Hamas? None.

That is easy, the USSR had thousands of Nukes targeted on US cities.

[John Gault]

If there was even a grain of truth in that statement, George Bush would have ended up living on the street, sleeping in a cardboard box.

And you know this because?

A cute statement but it has nothing to do with this.

What do you think most of the Kennedy's would have done without the illgotten gains of Papa Joe? Especially that lard ass Teddy.

[issac the dragon]

Which one was it, John, Bobby, or Ted, that papa Joe bought a business for, that they could bankrupt?

[Judge Smails]

They were indeed elected and to me that just shows what scum the people who elected them are. It re-enforces how democracy is just mob rule when the majority are scum.

Precisely how I feel about the current bush administration and his followers.

[jim]

Precisely how I feel about the current bush administration and his followers.


Which is absolutely correct!!:ringo:godzilla

[Trueblue]

Is that an answer to the question? Or is it a I know you are but what am I deflection.

The question is:

How do you come to a compromise with people willing to die rather than compromise?

If their goal is your conversion to their religion or you die, where is the 'middle ground'?

The picture of Rummy was from long before the Gulf war in 91. But it was an example of he may be a SOB but he is our SOB. Something our country has always done no matter who the president. As a matter of fact I believe that phrase was coined by FDR.

The other of Putin and Bush is not even applicable to this argument.

try again.

It's an answer to the question, via illustration, and I didn't invent the technique. Is it new to you? Yes, Bush and Putin are applicable. And Saddam was already Saddam when Rummy shook his hand. Saddam was never our SOB, and anybody who thinks that he was is a brainwashed SOB.

Intelligent people already know that the US has negotiated many times with terrorists, with bastards, with sorry sons-a-bitches.

Gullible people believe that the US never negotiates with terrorists.

[John Gault]

Precisely how I feel about the current bush administration and his followers.

I am just amazed ant how often the 'I know you are but what am I' debate technique is used here.

I won't use the words that properly describe how I feel about the syncophant followers of the democrat socialist party.

[John Gault]

Which is absolutely correct!!:ringo:godzilla

Oh me too me too!

Your next original thought will be your first and if you manage it it might be your last popping your last good artery to the brain in the process.

[John Gault]

It's an answer to the question, via illustration, and I didn't invent the technique. Is it new to you? Yes, Bush and Putin are applicable. And Saddam was already Saddam when Rummy shook his hand. Saddam was never our SOB, and anybody who thinks that he was is a brainwashed SOB.

Intelligent people already know that the US has negotiated many times with terrorists, with bastards, with sorry sons-a-bitches.

Gullible people believe that the US never negotiates with terrorists.


I think we should just track their leaders down one at a time and kill them, all of them.

[Trueblue]

They stole the land? Really?

That area is like a old toy.

Prior to the Jews having control of it that area was an unrelenting desert. Almost no agriculture, little available water.

Israel is formed, and suddenly every arab country in the world is interested in that tiny area of land.

Screw and the terrorists palestinians who have 22 nations they could live in.

The Palestinians are not wanted in any arab country because they are always trouble makers. The King of Jordon once had thousands killed. Of course that is because 80% of the population of Jordon are palestinians.

You anti-semites are almost sad if your ideas were not so destructive.

You are a sad antisemite yourself. Look at the stereotyping of Palestinians, but you object to antisemitism?

There were people living there who got pushed off their land. It doesn't really matter if their nation was organized according to your standards.

You get a pice of the pie by not being a terrorist and then earning it.

It cannot be given to you and you cannot take it buy force, unless you are a government.

This is a really naive statement.

What terrorist have we successfully negotiated with?

The governments of Red China, the USSR, Libya, and we are in the negotiation process with NK.

[Trueblue]

I think we should just track their leaders down one at a time and kill them, all of them.

Another recipe for disaster.

[AYFR]

Well....you missed the boat on the police work idea...I DON'T mean local police here in the US, REV....I mean INTERNATIONAL POLICE AGENCIES .......not here, but there. What grade are you in?

You have now added a dimension....what if they will stop at nothing but the destruction of Israel?

That, my friend, in truly conservative terms, is Israel's problem. We should do whatever we can to assist our allies....wherever they may be. But...Israel is a sovereign nation and, as such, is ultimately responsible for it's own defense. I hold Israel in no higehr reghard than I do any other nation that we consider allies. Why do you?
I am sorry I honestly thought you meant the Police here.

On that note though I have little faith in the UN PeaceKeepers, their past record of dealing with things like this is not the best.

As for Israel I actuall agree. I believe that we should let them fight it out and winner takes all. No help or interference from anyone.

[AYFR]

You are a sad antisemite yourself. Look at the stereotyping of Palestinians, but you object to antisemitism?

There were people living there who got pushed off their land. It doesn't really matter if their nation was organized according to your standards.



This is a really naive statement.



The governments of Red China, the USSR, Libya, and we are in the negotiation process with NK.

China, USSR, Libya, and NK are not terrorists.
They are countries that use armies to fight, they do not hide behind civilians or use bombs attached to innocent children.

[Trueblue]

China, USSR, Libya, and NK are not terrorists.
They are countries that use armies to fight, they do not hide behind civilians or use bombs attached to innocent children.

Libya has sponsored terrorism, for example, they helped to blow up a planeload of innocents. NK is a terrorist nation. Neither the USSR or Red China would have given two thoughts about killing innocents if they could get away with it.

This is really a distinction without a difference.

[AYFR]

The main distiction is the WHY they did it.
The terrorists reason is because ALLAH told them to.
Those nations reasons were greed.
Trying to reason with a religious fanatic is like trying to get a brickwall to move by just talking to it..
If someone truly believes that their god wants them to do something it is near impossible to stop them

[Trueblue]

The main distiction is the WHY they did it.
The terrorists reason is because ALLAH told them to.
Those nations reasons were greed.
Trying to reason with a religious fanatic is like trying to get a brickwall to move by just talking to it..
If someone truly believes that their god wants them to do something it is near impossible to stop them

For a few, they did it because of a warped interpretation of the Koran.

For many, they did it because they are angry at seeing the US occupying what they consider holy territory in Saudi Arabia.

People need to realize what bin Laden says instead of what they think he means.

Many of the leaders of these nations give all kinds of reasons for their actions, but the reason is usually power. The same goes for terrorist leaders.

A lot of the anger of terrorists goes back to what they see done in the ME in the name of the US. Blowback.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Here is a great clip showing how one negotiates with someone who is not your friend with clips form Secretaries of State Baker, Powell and Rice as well as clips from Reagan and others http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHliQNZcmi8

[AYFR]

YDT there is a difference is not a friend and a terrorist. There are lots of people that are not my friends that I will talk to .

[Lone Laugher]

Fucking semantics based arguments again...Rev. Stop it already...it is sooooooo boring.

[AYFR]

Right on cue with that attacks instead of the debate.

LL there is a difference is not a friend and a terrorist. Just like there is a difference between Leaders of nations that do not like us so much and terrorists.

I am truly sorry for you if you cannot see that.

[Lone Laugher]

Whatever, Rev. You have lost all credibility anyway. You are not taken seriously.

[Trueblue]

Right on cue with that attacks instead of the debate.

LL there is a difference is not a friend and a terrorist. Just like there is a difference between Leaders of nations that do not like us so much and terrorists.

I am truly sorry for you if you cannot see that.

Of course there is a difference, but your statement was an argument of semantics.

[AYFR]

Whatever, Rev. You have lost all credibility anyway. You are not taken seriously.
Those that cannot argue instead attack.

Of course there is a difference, but your statement was an argument of semantics.
It was not semantics.
A non friend is not necessarily an enemy, a terrorist is always an enemy.

[AYFR]

Again there is a HUGE difference is talking to the USSR, NK, and China and in talking with Terrorists.

China, the USSR, and NK are not our friends, BUT they currently are not our enemies either.

Terrorists on the other hand are our enemies.

Hmm I seem to recall someone berating me on choosing my word incorrectly and yet that same person defends YDT when he does likewise.
Typical hypotrical crap.

It would be great if you would learn to accept that the words you choose to use are going to be recieved by others. Sometimes...the meaning that you intend is not the meaning that is recieved. This is more often the fault of the author than the reader.

When this happens...you would be better served to rephrase your comments rather than accuse others of intentionally altering your meaning and getting embroiled in a meaningless battle over semantics.

Also..it does not hurt to occasionally accept responsibility for poorly phrased comments that do not relay your intended meaning.

[Trueblue]

Those that cannot argue instead attack.


It was not semantics.
A non friend is not necessarily an enemy, a terrorist is always an enemy.

Still true, and still not pertinent.

You are playing a word game. Baker says "not your friends", but he does not mean "not your friends" as literally as you are choosing to take it.

[Matt]

I don't recall anybody suggesting negotiations with al Qaeda. Who ever said that we should negotiate with bin Laden? Seriously. Who?

Hamas is as legitimate in terms of nations as Kim Jong Il and Khadify.

We have negotiated with NK and Libya, considering that, I don't see why we cannot negotiate with Hamas, and even Hezbolah.

That doesn't mean giving them permission or blessing to blow people up, any more than negotiating with NK meant giving them permission to build more nuclear weapons.

I believe you just spelled out the difference between negotiation and appeasement.
I think what Reagan did in the Iran Contra affair was closer to appeasement.

[Trueblue]

Again there is a HUGE difference is talking to the USSR, NK, and China and in talking with Terrorists.

China, the USSR, and NK are not our friends, BUT they currently are not our enemies either.

Terrorists on the other hand are our enemies.

Hmm I seem to recall someone berating me on choosing my word incorrectly and yet that same person defends YDT when he does likewise.
Typical hypotrical crap.

The USSR was our enemy at the time that we negotiated with them. They had many missiles aimed right at the US. Nuclear warheads.

NK is a rogue state, and yet we negotiate with them.

Libya was a state sponsor of terrorism, and yet we negotiated with them.

[Trueblue]

I believe you just spelled out the difference between negotiation and appeasement.
I think what Reagan did in the Iran Contra affair was closer to appeasement.

No kidding! Did you know that Ollie North is going around carrying on about Obama talking to Iran? Ollie North! And the right wingers are listening to him as if he had a right to say something.

[AYFR]

The USSR was our enemy at the time that we negotiated with them. They had many missiles aimed right at the US. Nuclear warheads.

NK is a rogue state, and yet we negotiate with them.

Libya was a state sponsor of terrorism, and yet we negotiated with them.

The USSR was still not terrorist, the USSR could be negoiated with.

NK is recognized as a nation by all countries and again they can be negotiated with.

While Libya sponsered terrorism they are still a nation and are not terrorist themselves.

Likewise While Iran and Syria support and sponser terrorism they too IMO can be negoiated with.


Hamas and Hezbullal, Al Queda and other terrorists CANNOT be.

I am all for negotiating with nations, nations real reasons to negoiate, terrorists do not, they believe will be rewared live or die.

[AYFR]

My original question had nothing to do with talking with nations it had to do with trying to negotiate with terrorists.

with religious extremists that kill and blow themselves up in the name of Allah, God or whomever?

How can you negotiate with people that walk into a marketplace and then proceed to blow themselves up taking lots of innocent civilians with them?

How can you negotiate with people that strap bombs to children, themselves and others?

How can you negotiate with people celebrate and cheer when innocent people are killed?

Please someone explain to me just how you negotiate with this.

IMO you can't, the same way you can negotiate with people that protest soldiers funerals, blow abortion clinics up, destroy property in the name of the environment.

Some people cannot be reasoned with.

[Trueblue]

The USSR was still not terrorist, the USSR could be negoiated with.

NK is recognized as a nation by all countries and again they can be negotiated with.

While Libya sponsered terrorism they are still a nation and are not terrorist themselves.

Likewise While Iran and Syria support and sponser terrorism they too IMO can be negoiated with.


Hamas and Hezbullal, Al Queda and other terrorists CANNOT be.

I am all for negotiating with nations, nations real reasons to negoiate, terrorists do not, they believe will be rewared live or die.

You are overgeneralizing and overlooking reality so you can win some point. :roll

It is interesting to me that Pubs have so much respect for the appearance of authority. Kim Jong gets more status than the head of Hamas, because somehow you've decided that Kim Jong is a leader of a real country, and the leader of Hamas, who was elected democratically, is not.

[Trueblue]

My original question had nothing to do with talking with nations it had to do with trying to negotiate with terrorists.

Well it's been answered over and over, and you just won't quit asking it.

This is more complicated than "they hate us for our freedoms" and "they all believe that the Koran says to kill non-Muslims".

This is far more a political issue than a religious issue.

[AYFR]

You are overgeneralizing and overlooking reality so you can win some point. :roll

It is interesting to me that Pubs have so much respect for the appearance of authority. Kim Jong gets more status than the head of Hamas, because somehow you've decided that Kim Jong is a leader of a real country, and the leader of Hamas, who was elected democratically, is not.
Hamas is not the elected HEAD of the governemnt.

Nations have not declared NK to be a terrorist organization, they HAVE declared Hamas to be.
Well it's been answered over and over, and you just won't quit asking it.

This is more complicated than "they hate us for our freedoms" and "they all believe that the Koran says to kill non-Muslims".

This is far more a political issue than a religious issue.
You have to negotiate with the leades of the terrorists not the followers.

It has not been answered (LL did say that you do not negotiate you arrest them)
But the people that say to negotiate just say do it like you would anyone else.

That will not work. They are not a country or a nation they are a criminal terrorist group and you do not negotiate with them. You either arrest them (like LL said) and put them away forever or you kill them, because they will not stop trying to kill us and you are niave to think differently.

For you to believe that it is political with Hamas, Hezbullah and Al Queda shows truly how little you know.

From Bin Laden's Fataw
Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, is double than their rewards in fighting some one else not from the people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same hell with his righteous executioner. Our youths chanting and reciting the word of Allah, themost exalted:

{fight them Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the heart of a believing people} (AtTaubah 9:14) and the words of the prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM): " I swear by Him, who has my soul in His hand, that no man get killed fighting them today, patiently attacking and not retreating ,surely Allah will let him into paradise" . And his (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him) saying to them: " get up to a paradise as wide as heaven and earth" .
http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/opf980830a.htm
Yeah that is political

Hamas Charter
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Hezbullah Manifisto
Our Identity
We are often asked: Who are we, the Hizballah, and what is our identity? We are the sons of the umma (Muslim community) - the party of God (Hizb Allah) the vanguard of which was made victorious by God in Iran. There the vanguard succeeded to lay down the bases of a Muslim state which plays a central role in the world. We obey the orders of one leader, wise and just, that of our tutor and faqih (jurist) who fulfills all the necessary conditions: Ruhollah Musawi Khomeini. God save him!
http://www.ict.org.il/apage/8013.php
http://go2top.net/index.php?top=book_feraq&cid=369&c=5

[AYFR]

Looks like mom and daughter are going to try and tag team me.

[AYFR]

Well before they do. Good night, it is time for bed.

[Trueblue]

Looks like mom and daughter are going to try and tag team me.

I'm sorry, that is not the intent. We are just both interested in this.

If you would leave this at the level of a discussion, I don't think you'd feel this way.

[Trueblue]

Well before they do. Good night, it is time for bed.

And anyway, my Mom has posted about twice in this thread. So what are you talking about?

This is a political struggle, Rev, for those terrorist groups.

Anybody fighting is going to invoke God, no matter how outlandish it seems sometimes.

The stated goals-to get US bases out of Saudi Arabia, to give rights to the Palestinians, these are political goals. Not religious.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Who are you going to trust? A layperson who has no idea about the subject or experts such as Sec of State Baker and Powell and to a much lesser extent Sec. of State Rice (she is clearly not in the same category as the first two gentlemen as to either accomplishments or knowledge of the field).

The :rev 's opinion on this subject would not be admissible in a court because he is not a professional and lack the expertise to make such an opinion. The :rev 's opinion is amusing but would be given no weight whatsoever in any court while the opinions of Sec. Baker and Sec. Powell would entitled to a great deal of weight because these gentlemen are not laypersons and have the expertise and knowledge to make the determination and to express an opinion on this subject.

[Yellowdogtexan]

YDT there is a difference is not a friend and a terrorist. There are lots of people that are not my friends that I will talk to .You lack the professional training or expertise to make any opinions here. The statements of Sec. Powell and Baker on the other hand are entitled to a great deal of weight. Laypersons like yourself should really listen to Sec. of State Baker and Powell before making lay and uninformed opinions. Luckily your lay opinion would never be admissible in court because of your total lack of knowledge and expertise in this area.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Whatever, Rev. You have lost all credibility anyway. You are not taken seriously.Again, when the law is on your side you pound the law and when the facts are your side you pound the fact. When neither on your side, you pound the table. The :rev has nothing on his side but his lay opinion that is totally against the professional and expert opinion of Sec. of State Powell and Baker. Again, watch the clip on post 74. It is very good and there you have true experts giving their expert opinons as compared to the opinion of a layperson who has no training and no expertise whatsoever on this subject but is happy to make silly semantic arguement and who has no credibility whatsoever. The :rev is good at pounding the table because that is all his lack of knowledge and expertise allows him to pound.

[AYFR]

I'm sorry, that is not the intent. We are just both interested in this.

If you would leave this at the level of a discussion, I don't think you'd feel this way.It was meant to be humorous. I noticed on the "whos online" that both were looking at and replying to this thread.

I left because I did not realize how late it was. I have to get up early in the morning.

[Trueblue]

It was meant to be humorous. I noticed on the "whos online" that both were looking at and replying to this thread.

I left because I did not realize how late it was. I have to get up early in the morning.

OK, thanks for explaining.

[AYFR]

You are welcome

[Yellowdogtexan]

Here is a transcript of Sec. of State Baker's slam on mc :cane about why one negotiates with someone other than our friends. http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_080519_james_baker_hammers_.htm
Republican James Baker III, who served as Ronald Reagan's Chief of Staff and George H. W. Bush's Secretary of State had an interesting interview on Fox News' Hannity and Colmes show on Friday, October 6 2006 during which he said "Talking to an enemy is not, in my view, appeasement."

James Baker is one of those Republicans that other prominent Republicans turn to for advice and help. Baker is who George W. Bush relied on to be his public face during the Florida recount in 2000. Democrats, like me, don't necessarily like him, but we have a grudging respect for him. Baker doesn't play political games with things like the security and diplomatic goals of this country. Baker is a genuine international diplomat with credentials and a record of achievement, unlike the current Bush administration and unlike John McCain. He knows what it takes to go abroad and hammer out an agreement under difficult circumstances. He knows how to make progress with countries with whom we have disagreements.

Below is a partial transcript of the October 2006 Fox News interview. The entire transcript can be seen at http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,218260,00.html :
COLMES: A level of engagement which some have said is not present today. Is this administration engaged enough with the people they should be talking to, to solve the kind of problems you're talking about?

BAKER: My view is that you don't just talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies, as well. And the diplomacy involves talking to your enemies.

You don't reward your enemies...

COLMES: Right.

BAKER: ... necessarily, by talking to them if you're tough and you know what you're doing. You don't appease them. Talking to an enemy is not, in my view, appeasement.

I made 15 trips to Syria in 1990-1991 at a time when Syria was on the list of countries who are state sponsors of terrorism. And the 16th trip, guess what? Lo and behold, Syria changed 25 years of policy and agreed for the first time in history to come sit at the table with Israel, which is what Israel wanted at the time. And, thereby, implicitly recognized Israel's right to exist.

Now, all I'm saying is that would never have happened if we hadn't been sufficiently dedicated that we were going to keep at it. And that's the only...


COLMES: You deserve a lot of credit for that, and I think the Bush 41 administration does. Is this administration as dedicated to that level of dialogue worldwide, to enable those kinds of relationships. The opinion of an expert like Sec. of State Baker is far more credible than the opinion of a layperson who has no idea as to what he was talking about.

[Saguaro]

They were indeed elected and to me that just shows what scum the people who elected them are. It re-enforces how democracy is just mob rule when the majority are scum.


It doesn't matter what you think of them