Immigration as an election issue

[toxic]

Some people are not familar with the effects of high levels of immigration, unless they happen to live in an affected area - like Texas.

Immigration is an important issue to those in the Southwest, because they have seen wages of both professional and labor jobs drop by half during the Bush Administration.

Currently, none of the remaining candidates seem to care about excess immigration, but it WILL affect every American's life soon.

Let me again attach the North Texas Employment Study of LAIDOFF workers that was done in 2004.

Demographic Highlights of Unemployed Texas Workers
(Full Report is at the link at the bottom of page)

Prior job:
- Managers 44%
- Technical positions 41%

Education:
- 71% College or Associates Degree.
- 32% Masters Degree.
- 3% Doctorate Degree.

Current Job Status:
- Obtained full time employment 25%
- Now self employed 15%
- Part time employment 15%
- Remain unemployed 45%

Pay change at new job:
- 45% took pay cut over 40%
- 35% took pay cut of 20-40%
- 13% took pay cut of 10-20%
- 10% took pay cut of 1-10%

Age:
- Thirties: 13.4%
- Forties: 34.5%
- Fifties: 28.6%

Race:
- 79% Caucasian.

Sex and marriage status:
Men 68%
Married men: 80%
Married men with children: 76%
Married women 44%
Married women with childred 44%

Prior Occupation:
- Telecom 41%
- Professional, Scientific or Tech Services 11%
- Technology Consulting 8%


Research Report: Follow-Up Survey on the Effect of Layoffs in the North Texas Region

University of Texas at Arlington

Full Report:
http://www.nttc.ws/survey/layoff2004FINALAUG23.pdf
__________________

[AYFR]

In Texas illegal immigration is a very big concern.

[nixon]

In Texas illegal immigration is a very big concern.This should be a concern in the rest of the states as well. How can our government effectively fight terrorism when our borders aren't secure?

[AYFR]

This should be a concern in the rest of the states as well. How can our government effectively fight terrorism when our borders aren't secure?

That is a question I have wondered for a long time.

Problem is none of the current candidates have a strong histroy of protecting the border.

We need to fight terrorism BUT we also need to secure BOTH of our borders as well.

I have no problem with people coming to the US bu tI just want them to do it legally.

[nixon]

That is a question I have wondered for a long time.

Problem is none of the current candidates have a strong histroy of protecting the border.

We need to fight terrorism BUT we also need to secure BOTH of our borders as well.

I have no problem with people coming to the US bu tI just want them to do it legally.We agree, that is exactly how I see this issue. Our doors are open and you may enter, but do it legally.

[cassandra]

Immigration is a huge issue to me. Not only as a resident of the southwest but also as a parent who will be bringing an immigrant into this country.

The whole system is in need of immediate repair.

[Ringo]

I belong to two chapters of the Minutemen in SD & Iowa, and basically all we have done is monitor the traffic of Latino's into the Packing houses! We have succeeded in getting quite a few sent back, but I think a FAR stronger message must be sent at the point of entry! If it causes a few to lose their lives, so be it, as STRONG messages and WARNINGS will be issued, and after that you are on your own!

If you wish me to participate in group hugs with these people, save your breath, like Mid Easteners they understand one thing, and one thing only!!:hulk

[toxic]

All immigration needs to be reduced (or stopped) till we get a handle on things.

In the example of High Tech Workers I gave at the start, we have a SURPLUS in Texas and perhaps in the USA (According to IEEE-USA). This surplus does not prevent high powered Corporations or their Coin-Operated Politicians from repeatedly declaring (lying) there is a shortage.

Obviously, Corporations would rather hire a foreign H-1B Visa alien at half the price and force wages down in America. Sure they will use scare tactics and/or say their are shorages. the only shortages that exist for corporations is $5/hour workers.

The choice will belong to voters to decide if eventually we will eliminate our Middle Class and reduce American's wages to that of the 3rd world.

[jim]

All immigration needs to be reduced (or stopped) till we get a handle on things.

In the example of High Tech Workers I gave at the start, we have a SURPLUS in Texas and perhaps in the USA (According to IEEE-USA). This surplus does not prevent high powered Corporations or their Coin-Operated Politicians from repeatedly declaring (lying) there is a shortage.

Obviously, Corporations would rather hire a foreign H-1B Visa alien at half the price and force wages down in America. Sure they will use scare tactics and/or say their are shorages. the only shortages that exist for corporations is $5/hour workers.

The choice will belong to voters to decide if eventually we will eliminate our Middle Class and reduce American's wages to that of the 3rd world.


This is what the Republicans want!!!:devil

[toxic]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080219/capt.a2c7a565c90440c89ffa48b2c5978b50.army_robot_t xelp105.jpg?x=400&y=317&sig=SNXYXjB125jJuqlSGazvGA--

Autonomus robots would be one way to cheaply patrol our borders.

They would NOT need to be all-terrain like these, as they could keep on the regular dirt roads available between most Land Ports. These could cover large areas and are easily relocatable.

The biggest question is what they would do with the illegals they locate. I would suggest:
1) a chance to self-identify and get on board for retreaval to border patrol station.
2) an option to turn-around and return across border.
3) a non-deadly, but punishing reaction for continuing into the USA, like Taser, rubber bullets, CS gas, etc.

http://www.ramdac.org/images/rubberbullets.jpg

[toxic]

http://www.spawar.navy.mil/robots/images/robart3d.jpg

I guess this one fires darts.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080227111811.y9syyq8p&show_article=1

[cassandra]

This thread represents what is wrong with people. Because you all fell out of your Mother's wombs here, you have some sort of inherent right to this land. :sad

So sad really. America has no hope with people like this making up the majority.

[Trueblue]

It's what happens when people see themselves as having earned what they didn't earn-their intelligence, parents, birthplace, health, etc, etc.

[toxic]

Well, I have fought for this country in wartime and peacetime. I have worked to build it up and would like to salvage it for other worthwhile people who know how to appreciate it.

It's not just a birthright, I earned it.

I know what we have had here. I have also seen how people in the rest of the world live and are treated and I am not anxious to race to the bottom of the mud-pile.

But, as near as I can figure, some have done nothing lay on their back and moan a few times.

They have accomplished nothing, so the only way to convince themselves they have any value, is to give away what others have preserved.

BUT ... hey it's democracy ... then open the fucking borders and share EVERYTHING you have with everyone who wants it.

I cannot wait to see your children being bitch-slapped into submission by their Asian master for raising their eyes to look at him.

[Trueblue]

It's difficult to take you seriously when you make statements like this:

But, as near as I can figure, some have done nothing lay on their back and moan a few times.


I don't think that we need to open the borders and share everything with everybody, nor do I think we need to kill people for trying to cross the border.

[Capitalist]

This is what the Republicans want!!!:devil

Bullshit, what we want is to stop the illegals that depress wages locally and remove the excessive tax and regulation burdens that force companies from the country.

[Trueblue]

It does depress wages to have people willing to work for lower wages, however, that is addressed by immigration reform.

As for companies being "forced" to locate elsewhere by excessive regulation and taxation-:roll

[toxic]

Great! A debate on illegals between 2 people from Tennessee that I suspect do not see thousands of illegals everyday.

[Trueblue]

Great! A debate on illegals between 2 people from Tennessee that I suspect do not see thousands of illegals everyday.

Are you serious, toxic? I work in the public schools and my husband works in construction.

[toxic]

Are you serious, toxic? I work in the public schools and my husband works in construction.

So....

HOW MANY ILLEGALS DO YOU SEE IN A DAY?

If you go into a Wal-Mart, do you see any other non-hispanic white people? What percentage of the people are speaking English?

My answer is No, in a Wal-Mart, maybe 1 person in 50 is non-hispanic white and/or speaking English. Everyone else is Asian, Latin or a Mideastern dialect.

Do hundreds of illegals congregate in places for pick-up?

When you drive on the freeway, is almost every vehicle unregistered, uninsured, uninspected and occupied with 5 filthy men with only their eyes and forehead barely visible through the heavily tinted windows?

When you are walking alone, do men yell "hey Chica" and rub their cock?

[cassandra]

Well, I have fought for this country in wartime and peacetime. I have worked to build it up and would like to salvage it for other worthwhile people who know how to appreciate it.

It's not just a birthright, I earned it.

I know what we have had here. I have also seen how people in the rest of the world live and are treated and I am not anxious to race to the bottom of the mud-pile.

But, as near as I can figure, some have done nothing lay on their back and moan a few times.

They have accomplished nothing, so the only way to convince themselves they have any value, is to give away what others have preserved.

BUT ... hey it's democracy ... then open the fucking borders and share EVERYTHING you have with everyone who wants it.

I cannot wait to see your children being bitch-slapped into submission by their Asian master for raising their eyes to look at him.

You are aware that the US was built off the backs of immigrants who give more about this country than most of the people born here.

[Trueblue]

I don't go up and ask them, but there has been a huge increase in the number of ESL students who speak Spanish, and the job sites are full of guys who work for a subcontractor and only speak Spanish. Most of these folks are illegal, or are the children of people who are here illegally. There is a large section of Kroger's that sells Mexican foods and candles with sacred images.

Our school system is overtaxed, and labor wages are depressed because of illegal immigration.

I still don't believe we need to stand at the border and shoot people.

[cassandra]

TB our system is over worked by them but only because we are too pig headed to give them a work visa and allow them to pay taxes and everything else that comes with being American.

[Trueblue]

I think the best solution would be to assist the Mexican government in being more honest and productive. We don't have millions of Canadians crossing the border illegally.

IMO, the US has used Mexicans for years as an underclass for labor, and that has led to this situation.

[toxic]

You are aware that the US was built off the backs of immigrants who give more about this country than most of the people born here.

I am aware that America had prohibited immigration whenever it sufficiently lowered wages of average working people.

I am aware that YOU care less about the future of this country than you care about immigrants.

Immigrants have no linkage to the future of this nation. They are here for the wages and anything else they can get for free. They don't give a shit about what happens here and will go to another country if handouts are better there.

[issac the dragon]

I haven't read anything from Cassandra that makes me think she supports unlimited immigration from anywhere. Perhaps she is speaking to the difficulty that legal immigrants are suffering? I really can't speak for her, but I have not read anything that makes me believe that.

I think there are some real problems begining to show up in the hiring practices of the construction industry. It takes some skill to build a house. Not just a warm body. There are houses being built today that have serious structural problems. Because the only job qualification some employers have is a willingness to work for $4 an hour. This is happening in Oregon. And it doesn't seem to help to sue the people who built the house. They are often fly by nighters.

[cassandra]

I am aware that YOU care less about the future of this country than you care about immigrants.

Immigrants have no linkage to the future of this nation. They are here for the wages and anything else they can get for free. They don't give a shit about what happens here and will go to another country if handouts are better there.

Immigrants and the future of this nation are very important to me. I just cannot stand people like you with serious elitist issues. You make broad statements that ever immigrant is here to rape and pillage, which is wrong.

I ask you the same question you asked others. How many immigrants do you KNOW???

I have worked with tons of immigrants. I have taught hundreds to read and basic skills. I have spoken with and even have friends who are immigrants. I will soon be the mother of an immigrant.

[cassandra]

I haven't read anything from Cassandra that makes me think she supports unlimited immigration from anywhere. Perhaps she is speaking to the difficulty that legal immigrants are suffering? I really can't speak for her, but I have not read anything that makes me believe that.

I think there are some real problems begining to show up in the hiring practices of the construction industry. It takes some skill to build a house. Not just a warm body. There are houses being built today that have serious structural problems. Because the only job qualification some employers have is a willingness to work for $4 an hour. This is happening in Oregon. And it doesn't seem to help to sue the people who built the house. They are often fly by nighters.

Issac thanks for your comments.

I will clarify, I actually do support immigration for all. I think that we should allow them to be documented and allow them access.

It is my opinion that this country is being destroyed by having them work under the table and not contribute. They are getting a lot for free that is crippling the economy.

[toxic]

I haven't read anything from Cassandra that makes me think she supports unlimited immigration from anywhere. Perhaps she is speaking to the difficulty that legal immigrants are suffering? I really can't speak for her, but I have not read anything that makes me believe that.

I think there are some real problems begining to show up in the hiring practices of the construction industry. It takes some skill to build a house. Not just a warm body. There are houses being built today that have serious structural problems. Because the only job qualification some employers have is a willingness to work for $4 an hour. This is happening in Oregon. And it doesn't seem to help to sue the people who built the house. They are often fly by nighters.

Please read the the first post in this thread. I show evidence that even highly educated professionals are displaced by immigration in states like Texas.

From the first post in this thread on North Texas Unemployment of High Tech Workers:

Education:
- 71% College or Associates Degree.
- 32% Masters Degree.
- 3% Doctorate Degree.

Current Job Status:
- Now self employed 15%
- Part time employment 15%
- Remain unemployed 45%

Pay change at new job:
- 45% took pay cut over 40%
- 35% took pay cut of 20-40%
- 13% took pay cut of 10-20%
- 10% took pay cut of 1-10%

Plus, you know Americans used to make a living doing construction too. What about those people?

What about the teens in high school that once could get lower wage jobs and learn a trade? Now all employers opt for full time illegals here.

Maybe it is time to help Americans.

[Trueblue]

Illegal immigrants make large contributions to SS that they aren't able to claim, and they often don't file to get their federal tax returns. They are giving a lot that is unacknowledged. Plus, here in TN, the primary source of tax money is sales tax, which hits everyone regardless of income.

[Trueblue]

I do agree that we need to help our own poor in America.

[toxic]

...
I will clarify, I actually do support immigration for all. I think that we should allow them to be documented and allow them access. ...

That is the ultimately naive perspective that would transform America into a 3rd world nation.

Some people have no concept of what America has or how we got it. They just fell out of the womb here and have never in their life learned where things come from and where they go. They have just consumed and been cared for by someone.

[Trueblue]

That is the ultimately naive perspective that would transform America into a 3rd world nation.

Some people have no concept of what America has or how we got it. They just fell out of the womb here and have never in their life learned where things come from and where they go. They have just consumed and been cared for by someone.

And anybody who disagrees with you falls into that category, eh?

[cassandra]

That is the ultimately naive perspective that would transform America into a 3rd world nation.

Some people have no concept of what America has or how we got it. They just fell out of the womb here and have never in their life learned where things come from and where they go. They have just consumed and been cared for by someone.

We all have different ideas on how to help America.

So how many immigrants do you know???

[toxic]

Illegal immigrants make large contributions to SS that they aren't able to claim, and they often don't file to get their federal tax returns. They are giving a lot that is unacknowledged. Plus, here in TN, the primary source of tax money is sales tax, which hits everyone regardless of income.

Wrong.

One of the transformations of living in an immigrant economy in Texas is, ALMOST EVERYONE IS A CONTRACTOR.

That means no taxes or Social Security are collected. Even my wife who has worked directly for the city's Parks and Recreation Dept for over 20 years is a "Contractor". Yes, it is up to her to file quarterly returns and pay SS.

And without saying, every illegal dayworker is paid cash at the end of the day.

[Trueblue]

Wrong.

One of the transformations of living in an immigrant economy in Texas is, ALMOST EVERYONE IS A CONTRACTOR.

That means no taxes or Social Security are collected. Even my wife who has worked directly for the city's Parks and Recreation Dept for over 20 years is a "Contractor". Yes, it is up to her to file quarterly returns and pay SS.

And without saying, every illegal dayworker is paid cash at the end of the day.

No, you are wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

[Trueblue]

It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

More from the same 2005 article.

[Trueblue]

"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.

Three quarters.

[cassandra]

No, you are wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

Imagine how much it could be if they were allowed to pay all taxes.

[toxic]

And anybody who disagrees with you falls into that category, eh?

Actually, that was Cassandra's phrase redirected back to her.

This argument is so obviously remedial, I am at a lost for words to debate it. It is so inheriently obvious to me.

Clearly, you two are in that group that wants to surrender what makes America a good place to live. you want to give it away. I cannot believe anyone who worked to crate something would casually give it away. This leaves the option that you never created. That you don't know what it takes to build something.

This is what is wrong with most women. They are more than happy to give up what they never earned.

[Trueblue]

Imagine having a prosperous neighbor to the north, and to the south.

[toxic]

No, you are wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ...

NO YOU ARE WRONG.

THAT IS TOTAL BULLSHIT, AND EXACTLY THE CRAP THAT THE IMMIGRATION SUPPORTERS PUT OUT.

HOW NAIVE CAN YOU BE????????

[cassandra]

Toxic you have little knowledge of me. I have NEVER given up anything without a fight. Hence my vim and vigor for those I feel need it.

TB that sounds wonderful.

[Trueblue]

NO YOU ARE WRONG.

THAT IS TOTAL BULLSHIT, AND EXACTLY THE CRAP THAT THE IMMIGRATION SUPPORTERS PUT OUT.

HOW NAIVE CAN YOU BE????????

It's fact, from the SS administration. I'm not claiming that it is a net gain, but when you say that all immigrants are paid under the table, you are just wrong.

Toxic you have little knowledge of me. I have NEVER given up anything without a fight. Hence my vim and vigor for those I feel need it.

TB that sounds wonderful.

I think so, too.

[toxic]

Imagine how much it could be if they were allowed to pay all taxes.

Oh god are you gals naive.

The farm owner probably TELLS the morons that he takes taxes and SS out and short changes them.

Good, they fucking deserve to get screwed.

Hey why don't you go down an mother some of the illegals. They really need your help. Go see what nice guys they are.

[Trueblue]

Oh god are you gals naive.

The farm owner probably TELLS the morons that he takes taxes and SS out and short changes them.

Good, they fucking deserve to get screwed.

Hey why don't you go down an mother some of the illegals. They really need your help. Go see what nice guys they are.

It's not based on what some farm owner says, it's based on SS data. Read the article.

[toxic]

It's fact, from the SS administration. I'm not claiming that it is a net gain, but when you say that all immigrants are paid under the table, you are just wrong. ...

Fuck the SS administration. Hell, Bush has a Taiwanese running the Labor Dept. They like to fuck over Americans too.

Clearly, you have had NO INTERACTION with illegals.

You don't know what you are talking about and everyone in California, Arizona (except Cassandra), New Mexico and Texas KNOWS YOU ARE WRONG. .

[Trueblue]

Fuck the SS administration. Hell, Bush has a Taiwanese running the Labor Dept. They like to fuck over Americans too.

Clearly, you have had NO INTERACTION with illegals.

You don't know what you are talking about and everyone in California, Arizona (except Cassandra), New Mexico and Texas KNOWS YOU ARE WRONG. .

I'm not wrong, you are, and I proved it.

[toxic]

... when you say that all immigrants are paid under the table, you are just wrong. ...


THAT IS THE SINGULARLY MOST IGNORANT THING I HAVE HEARD IN A MONTH.

I BET BUSH/HILLARY/MCAIN/OBAMA SAY THEY ARE HAVE AUTO INSURANCE AND DON'T BRING DRUGS ACROSS THE BORDER TOO.

[cassandra]

Oh god are you gals naive.

The farm owner probably TELLS the morons that he takes taxes and SS out and short changes them.

Good, they fucking deserve to get screwed.

Hey why don't you go down an mother some of the illegals. They really need your help. Go see what nice guys they are.

Oh gosh you are so rude. What about those that are working for McDonald's or somewhere else other than a migrant farmer?

[Trueblue]

THAT IS THE SINGULARLY MOST IGNORANT THING I HAVE HEARD IN A MONTH.

I BET BUSH/HILLARY/MCAIN/OBAMA SAY THEY ARE HAVE AUTO INSURANCE AND DON'T BRING DRUGS ACROSS THE BORDER TOO.

Then you don't spend much time listening to yourself.

Many immigrants ARE paid under the table, that is one fact. Another fact is that not ALL immigrants are paid under the table.

As evidence, please read the article, and consider the thriving illegal document trade.

[cassandra]

Fuck the SS administration. Hell, Bush has a Taiwanese running the Labor Dept. They like to fuck over Americans too.

Clearly, you have had NO INTERACTION with illegals.

You don't know what you are talking about and everyone in California, Arizona (except Cassandra), New Mexico and Texas KNOWS YOU ARE WRONG. .

And bbrown, and dozens of other folks. You just have no idea of the things you speak.

[Lone Laugher]

Let me get this right...

Toxic wants to put robots on the border that will shoot human beings....and he thinks this will prevent America from going down the tubes?

I think everyone would like to see an end to illegal immigration.

The fact is that there is something here for these illigal immigrants to come for. That is a paying job...and then access to our social programs.

No job..........no reason to come. It requires simply that we enforce the laws that are on the books to prevent illegal immigrants from getting the job.

Terrorists are another matter.....no fence or robot or camera will put an end to this threat...from without or within. The best thing we can do is good police work and hope that we can get wind of "plots" before it is too late to do something. Pooling the terrorist issue with the immigration issue is just making the water muddy.

The matter of what to do with the illegal immigrants that are here needs careful consideration....deporting or imprisoning 12-20 million people is not a workable solution.

Cooler heads will prevail.

[toxic]

Let me get this right...

Toxic wants to put robots on the border that will shoot human beings....and he thinks this will prevent America from going down the tubes?

I think everyone would like to see an end to illegal immigration.

The fact is that there is something here for these illigal immigrants to come for. That is a paying job...and then access to our social programs.

No job..........no reason to come. It requires simply that we enforce the laws that are on the books to prevent illegal immigrants from getting the job.

Terrorists are another matter.....no fence or robot or camera will put an end to this threat...from without or within. The best thing we can do is good police work and hope that we can get wind of "plots" before it is too late to do something. Pooling the terrorist issue with the immigration issue is just making the water muddy.

The matter of what to do with the illegal immigrants that are here needs careful consideration....deporting or imprisoning 12-20 million people is not a workable solution.

Cooler heads will prevail.

First, re-read post.
I said, shoot with Less-Than-Lethal weapons, AFTER they:
1) refuse to identify,
2) refuse to return to Border station (ride on vehicle), and
3) refuse to return back across border (to Mexico).

Yes, a few hits from rubber bullets will discourage almost all invaders. BTW, I would designate the borders as "Free-Fire-Zones".

As for LAWS, there are already laws on the books and the Politically Powerful have law enforcement ignore the laws. Every businessman who preferes to pay $5/hour for employees, Love them.

If anyone would come to ANY major Texas town to enforce federal law, they could round up thousands of illegals a day, in each town.

Decades ago laws were enforce. When I lived in California, I could count on being stopped 2-3 times between the Mexican border and Los Angeles. Those days are long gone.

[toxic]

BTW, it is not a easy job, as immigrants are not nice people and kill many agents and if you check the dates, you can see things are getting much worse.

Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) Agents Recent Killed in the Line of Duty:
(CBP was recently created from other groups in 2003)

Luis A. Aguilar 2008
Travis Attaway 2004
Julio E. Baray 2007
Eric Cabral 2007
George DeBates 2004
James P. Epling 2003
Richard Goldstein 2007
Nicholas D. Greenig 2006
Ramon Nevarez, Jr. 2007
Robert Smith 2007
Clinton B. Thrasher 2007

Border Patrol (BP) Agents Killed in the Line of Duty prior to formation of CBP:
Ralph L. Anderson 1968
George F. Azrak 1967
James Rozas 1985
Michael W. Barnes 1996
Jefferson L. Barr 1996
John S. Blue 1973
Lee L. Bounds 1974
Michael T. Box 1950
William F. Buckelew 1954
James G. Burns 1968
Thomas K. Byrd 1983
Eric Cabral 2007
Kenneth L. Carl 1961
James M. Carter 1956
Clarence M. Childress 1919
Frank N. Clark 1924
Richard D. Clarke 1950
Keith Connelly 1989
Jesus De La Ossa 1998
Augustin De La Pena 1925
Edwin C. Dennis 1974
Roberto J. Duran 2002
Earl F. Fleckinger 1945
Joseph P. Gamez Jr. 1978
Charles Gardiner 1922
Ross A. Gardner 1925
Rene B. Garza 1999
Henley M. Goode Jr. 1969
Lester L. Haynie 1985
Robert J. Heibler 1941
Ned D. Henderson 1945
Eloy Hernandez 2002
Benjamin T. Hill 1929
Catherine M. Hill 2002
Elgar B. Holliday 1967
Charles L. Hopkins 1919
Charles F. Inch 1932
Daniel M. James Jr. 2001
Archie L. Jennings 1960
Friedrich Karl 1973
Donald Kee 1954
John D. Keenan 1989
Robert W. Kelsay 1930
James M. Kirchner 1954
Alexander Kirpnick 1998
Robert H. Lobdell 1928
Richard A. Lugo 1967
Xavier G. Magdaleno 1995
Josiah B. Mahar 1988
Miguel J. Maldonado Jr. 1997
James F. Mankin 1924
William D. McCalib 1930
John R. McCravey 1987
William W. Mckee 1926
Doyne C. Melton 1933
Jose A. Nava 1995
Theodore L. Newton Jr. 1967
Victor C. Ochoa 1983
Anthony L. Oneto 1947
Walter S. Panchison 1998
Jason C. Panides 2001
Lon Parker 1926
Glen A. Phillips 1974
Thad Pippin 1927
George E. Pringle 1940
Ralph W. Ramsey 1942
John A. Rector 1956
Joseph P. Riley 1925
David F. Roberson 1989
Earl A. Roberts 1929
Susan L. Rodriguez 1998
Norman G. Ross 1928
Manuel Salcido Jr. 1985
Norman R. Salinas 1986
Ricardo G. Salinas 1998
Luis A. Santiago 1995
Miles J. Scannel 1929
Ivan E. Scotten 1929
Douglas C. Shute 1956
William L. Sills 1940
Weldon Smith 1979
Louis D. Stahl 1992
Stephen C. Starch 1997
Phillip D. Strobridge 1933
Stephen M. Sullivan 1999
Oscar T. Torres 1974
Aurelio E. Valencia 1996
Frank Vidmar Jr. 1932
Harry E. Vincent 1930
Bert G. Walthall 1933
Edwin H. Wheeler 1952
Joe R. White 1995
Thomas J. Williams 1998
Franklin P. Wood 1927
David J. Tourscher 2007
David N. Webb 2006

U.S. Customs Service Agents Killed in the Line of Duty Prior to the formation of CBP:
J.M. Anderson 1863
Louis E. Babcock 1931
George M. Bacon 1955
Joseph Baker 1932
Renault R. Bayhi 1975
Arthur M. Beaman 1929
Peter H. Bima 1947
Charles J. Bokinskie 1974
Ralph B. Bowden 1932
Clyde M. Bristow 1932
Joseph T. Brown 1940
James A. Buczel 1988
Herff A. Carnes 1932
Frank Chapman 1908
Anthony Cozza 1945
David L. Crater 1987
Lloyd P. Criss 1924
Stephen S. Dawson 1928
David E. De Loach 1993
Louis D. Dixon 1974
Hugh Donnelly 1947
Ellis Drake 1808
Egbert Ellison 1930
Gary P. Friedli 1998
Arnold W. Gilbert 1931
William B. Goodell 1863
William Halley 1976
George E. Hamilton 1931
John H. Heard 1932
Loy C. Henry 1934
John E. Hollingsworth 1984
John S. Howard 1913
Paul D. Ice 1995
Vincent D. Kaskeski 1978
John L. Kelly 1931
Alan J. Klumpp 1993
John M. Lacey 1977
John F. Pugh 1918 Richard M. Latham 1984
Asa Marsh 1808
Timothy C. McCaghren 1990
Claude A. Medearis 1995
Glenn R. Miles, Sr. 1986
Daniel Miller 1810
Morley L. Miller 1984
Thomas S. Morris 1928
Thomas M. Murray 2001
Rollin C. Nichols 1933
Timothy M. O'Riordan 1964
John W. Parrott 1927
Kenneth P. Pierleoni 1971
Orville A. Preuster 1925
John F. Pugh 1918
Arthur B. Putnam 1908
Gaston Reddock 1918
Frank B. Robson 1896
Pedro J. Rodriguez 1998
Charles W. Rogers 1929
Daniel A. Romberger 1932
Robert S. Rumsey, Jr. 1922
George R. Saenz 1989
Harry L. Sexton 1934
George W. Singleton 1975
Joseph R. Sitter 1915
George J. Spencer 1981
Benjamin B. Stone 1957
Carl R. Talafous 1993
Fred Tate 1918
James D. Taylor 1987
Clarence J. Trask, Sr. 1947
Denis L. Van Patten 1980
Roger L. Von Amelunxen 1980
James A. Wallen 1923
Kenneth G. Ward 1979
Edward B. Webb 1926
Manuel VII Zurita 1998

U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) Killed in the Line of Duty Prior to the formation of CBP:
Alphonse G. Bernard 1920
Frank E. Chaffin 1946
Tommy K. Chin 1999
Jacques A. F. Crevecoeur 1984
Lawrence E. Dotten 1930
Albert Feld 1974
Charles M. Flachs 1936
Lawrence C. Jones 1930
Marion J. Jones 1946
George D. Joyce 1949 James McCabe 1923
Frank Mendoza 1968
Anthony S. Minetto 1997
Juan Gilbert Orellana 1998
William H. Phillips 1970
Roy M. Porter 1939
David Schwartz 1978
Russell L. Stapp 1954
Martin J. Travers 1975

[Lone Laugher]

Face it Toxic...you have decided to take an extremist stance on the issue. These are people we are talking about. You want to treat them as though they are animals.

Nobody wants to see continued illegal immigration. Some just want a more sensible and humane solution.

[Wabash]

Face it Toxic...you have decided to take an extremist stance on the issue. These are people we are talking about. You want to treat them as though they are animals.

Nobody wants to see continued illegal immigration. Some just want a more sensible and humane solution.

I agree with tox on this...and I think extreme measures are waaaay overdue.
Every Citizen of the US that wants to defend our border from these freeloaders and often times heinous criminals, should have the right to do so....by whatever means necessary!

[Lone Laugher]

Gee Wabs...I am surprised by your comments. I never would have expected that from you.

[Capitalist]

Let me get this right...

Toxic wants to put robots on the border that will shoot human beings....and he thinks this will prevent America from going down the tubes?

I think everyone would like to see an end to illegal immigration.

The fact is that there is something here for these illigal immigrants to come for. That is a paying job...and then access to our social programs.

No job..........no reason to come. It requires simply that we enforce the laws that are on the books to prevent illegal immigrants from getting the job.

Terrorists are another matter.....no fence or robot or camera will put an end to this threat...from without or within. The best thing we can do is good police work and hope that we can get wind of "plots" before it is too late to do something. Pooling the terrorist issue with the immigration issue is just making the water muddy.

The matter of what to do with the illegal immigrants that are here needs careful consideration....deporting or imprisoning 12-20 million people is not a workable solution.

Cooler heads will prevail.

Hey it's snowing in hell.

The only way to stop illegal imigration is to make it impossible for them to get jobs or to get any government service but life saving medical care.

That would also ttake care of the 12 ro 20 million.

See we would not have to track down or deport them, they would leave the same way they came. Self deporting, but we could offer them free busrides if they asked nicely.

Walls are worthless unless watched 24/7. Put up damn near any wall and if it is not watched people will find a way over or under.

The key is to remove the incentive to come here.

In OK they have started enforcing a new employment law (along with other anti-illegal laws) and a recent story has told of a mass exodus from OK. But they are just going to surrounding states. When it gets bad enough in those states (and it will) they will pass similar laws.

Soon TN will start enforcing a similar law....

[issac the dragon]

A lot of them claim so many dependents that they don't have to pay any taxes. Then there is no reason to file at the end of the year. But they do pay into SS. If they are legally employed. Construction companies and the food industry are notorious for paying people under the table. And paying less than the minimum wage.

[Capitalist]

Face it Toxic...you have decided to take an extremist stance on the issue. These are people we are talking about. You want to treat them as though they are animals.

Nobody wants to see continued illegal immigration. Some just want a more sensible and humane solution.

No as the criminals they are.

[Capitalist]

A lot of them claim so many dependents that they don't have to pay any taxes. Then there is no reason to file at the end of the year. But they do pay into SS. If they are legally employed. Construction companies and the food industry are notorious for paying people under the table. And paying less than the minimum wage.

Tell you what, if I am an employer and I know the guy is illegal, do I actually send in the Social Security and tax withholding or do I just keep it and not tell him that?

[Wabash]

Gee Wabs...I am surprised by your comments. I never would have expected that from you.
Ya....Right!

A lot of them claim so many dependents that they don't have to pay any taxes. Then there is no reason to file at the end of the year. But they do pay into SS. If they are legally employed. Construction companies and the food industry are notorious for paying people under the table. And paying less than the minimum wage.

Ohhhh April.....

Tell you what, if I am an employer and I know the guy is illegal, do I actually send in the Social Security and tax withholding or do I just keep it and not tell him that?
April, employs them annnnnd does their taxes!:LL

[issac the dragon]

I'm not a lawyer, but I think if you withhold them you'd better send them in. Its far easier to just not withhold them. I'd rather fight an army than mess with the government about money they think is owed them.

[toxic]

Face it Toxic...you have decided to take an extremist stance on the issue. These are people we are talking about. You want to treat them as though they are animals.

Nobody wants to see continued illegal immigration. Some just want a more sensible and humane solution.

First, LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE PROFITING FROM ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Yes, they want it to continue. No, they don't want more humane conditions. They want desparate people who will work cheap and do undesirable jobs like prostitution.

Second, God-damm-it, we are being over run with them. Pat Buchanan is RIGHT. They are not here to become Americans, they are here to convert America to a Mexican territory. Some openly make teritorial claims to the Southwestern USA.

All food markets have converted. They are now named: Ole's, Carnival, Fiesta, etc. They accomodate them and the first language is Spanish. Even Lowe's in-store flyers are primarily Spanish, with English below in small text.

Most everyone here is addressing the issue by moving North. Unfortunately, I don't like colder weather and have rejected that option.

Between illegals and the Katrina influx, Texas is dropping in desirability like a rock.

[Deadshot]

Toxic, your orginal post states that this is going to be "part of the election", immigration that is. How is that possible?

From 2000-2006 the Republican party controlled the House of Representatives, the United States Senate, the United States Supreme Court and the President of the United States and virtually NOTHING was done about Illegal Immigration!

It's a great topic to bring up and bitch about but you actually want something done about it, right? So if you and those like you couldn't win and get something done about it from 2000-2006, and STILL can't get something done about it with a weak-kneed Democratically controlled Congress and a GOP POTUS, how - in the name of all that's Holy - do you expect to get Obama or McCain or Clinton to do something about it?

[Wabash]

U.S. Retooling High-Tech Barrier After 28-Mile Pilot Project Fails

By Spencer S. Hsu
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 28, 2008; A01

The Bush administration has scaled back plans to quickly build a "virtual fence" along the U.S.-Mexico border, delaying completion of the first phase of the project by at least three years and shifting away from a network of tower-mounted sensors and surveillance gear, federal officials said yesterday.

Technical problems discovered in a 28-mile pilot project south of Tucson prompted the change in plans, Department of Homeland Security officials and congressional auditors told a House subcommittee.

Though the department took over that initial stretch Friday from Boeing, authorities confirmed that Project 28, the initial deployment of the Secure Border Initiative network, did not work as planned or meet the needs of the U.S. Border Patrol.

The announcement marked a major setback for what President Bush in May 2006 called "the most technologically advanced border security initiative in American history." The virtual fence was to be a key component of his proposed overhaul of U.S. immigration policies, which died last year in the Senate.

Investigators for the Government Accountability Office had earlier warned that the effort was beset by both expected and unplanned difficulties. But yesterday, they disclosed new troubles that will require a redesign and said the first phase will not be completed until near the end of the next president's first term.

Those problems included Boeing's use of inappropriate commercial software, designed for use by police dispatchers, to integrate data related to illicit border-crossings. Boeing has already been paid $20.6 million for the pilot project, and in December, the DHS gave the firm another $65 million to replace the software with military-style, battle management software.

In an interview, Gregory L. Giddens, the department's executive director for the border effort, confirmed that "we . . . have delayed our deployment as we work through the issues on Project 28. While there is clear urgency of the mission, we also want to make sure we do this right."

Boeing has said that the initial effort, while flawed, still has helped Homeland Security apprehend 2,000 illegal immigrants since September. It estimated in 2006 that it would spend $7.6 billion through 2011 to secure the entire 2,000-mile southern border, an ambition that was meant to win support from conservatives for legislation creating a guest-worker program and a path to legalization for 12 million illegal immigrants.

But officials said yesterday that they now expect to complete the first phase of the virtual fence's deployment -- roughly 100 miles near Tucson and Yuma, Ariz., and El Paso, Tex. -- by the end of 2011, instead of by the end of 2008. That target falls outside Boeing's initial contract, which will end in September 2009 but can be extended.

The virtual fence was to complement a physical fence that the administration now says will include 370 miles of pedestrian fencing and 300 miles of vehicle barriers to be completed by the end of this year. The GAO said this portion of the project may also be delayed and that its total cost cannot be determined. The president's 2009 budget does not propose funds to add fencing beyond the 700 or so miles meant to be completed this year.

"The total cost is not yet known," testified Richard M. Stana, the GAO's director of homeland security issues, because DHS officials "do not yet know the type of terrain where the fencing is to be constructed, the materials to be used, or the cost to acquire the land."

The pilot virtual fence included nine mobile towers, radar, cameras, and vehicles retrofitted with laptops and satellite phones or handheld devices. They were to be linked to a near-real-time, maplike projection of the frontier that agents could use to track targets and direct law enforcement resources.

GAO investigators said that Boeing's software could not process large amounts of sensor data. The resulting delays made it hard for operators in a Tucson command center 65 miles to the north to lock cameras on targets. Radar systems were also triggered inadvertently by rain and other environmental factors. Cameras had trouble resolving images at five kilometers when they were expected to work at twice that distance, Stana said.

He added that the system was developed with "minimal input" from Border Patrol agents, resulting in an unworkable "demonstration project" instead of a operating pilot system. He blamed the DHS for acting too hastily in trying to deliver a working pilot by last June.

The effort produced "a product that did not fully meet user needs, and the project's design will not be used as the basis for future . . . development," Stana testified, adding that the DHS plans to replace most of the components. The Wall Street Journal said Saturday that Boeing's pilot project will not be replicated.

A nongovernment source familiar with the project said that the Bush administration's push to speed the project during last year's immigration debate led Boeing to deploy equipment without enough testing or consultation.

With more time, the source said, equipment and software will be tested more carefully and integrated with input from Border Patrol agents in three remote locations. "Doing it this way mitigates all kinds of risk," said the source, who was not authorized to speak publicly. Those running the project "basically took equipment, put it on towers and put it out there without any testing as such" because of the tight deadline.

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said Friday that the department will "take elements" of the pilot project and apply them elsewhere, but that it plans to expand the number of mobile ground surveillance units from a handful to 40, and to double its fleet of three unmanned aerial vehicles. Boeing has offered DHS a $2 million credit from the funds it has already received.

Technology at the border is "not necessarily going to be in the configuration of P28," Chertoff said, adding that unmanned aerial systems in particular "will play a major role" in most border areas.

Boeing spokeswoman Deborah Bosick said the company is referring all questions to the DHS.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/27/AR2008022703747_pf.html

[toxic]

Toxic, your orginal post states that this is going to be "part of the election", immigration that is. How is that possible?

From 2000-2006 the Republican party controlled the House of Representatives, the United States Senate, the United States Supreme Court and the President of the United States and virtually NOTHING was done about Illegal Immigration!

It's a great topic to bring up and bitch about but you actually want something done about it, right? So if you and those like you couldn't win and get something done about it from 2000-2006, and STILL can't get something done about it with a weak-kneed Democratically controlled Congress and a GOP POTUS, how - in the name of all that's Holy - do you expect to get Obama or McCain or Clinton to do something about it?

It will only be an election issue if "the people" make it an issue.

From most of the responses here, it appears only few Americans care what culture runs this country.


http://one-simple-idea.com/USAFlagTurnedUpsideDown.gif

[Deadshot]

So you admit that, irregardless of your original post, that this issue will not be much of an election issue, correct?

[toxic]

So you admit that, irregardless of your original post, that this issue will not be much of an election issue, correct?

Yes and No.

It WILL BE an election issue for me.

It WON'T BE an election issue for Americans who are trying to race to the bottom of the Third World.


I don't know which camp MOST Americans are in.

[Deadshot]

I think most of the Americans are in my camp.

Do I want my job outsourced to an illegal, or anyone? No. But I know plenty of people who don't fall asleep on the job. Not because they're afraid of getting fired but because their company would steal and sell their kidney's for a profit!

That's the side of the coin so many Conservatives refuse to see. Why aren't we simply enforcing the laws on the books? If you hire an illegal we should crush your nuts in a vice!

The other side of the coin is that we're used to the cheap labor. I truly believe (as I think most fiscal Conservatives do - hence the reason nothing is being done about illegal immigration) that if illegals were to leave the price of food and homes would rise, ergo hurting our economy.

With that said, neither side is going to do a damn thing about it.

[Ringo]

No, you are wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.Anyone stupid enough to use the NY TIMES as a source, belongs to a group that services Chico & the Man!! You said earlier we shouldn't SHOOT em at the Border, WHY NOT?? They are INVADERS idiot and why should we help a corrupt damned Govt, unless it would be OUT of Power!!! This Nation needs to be AIRTIGHT as far as Mexicans and Mid Easteners are concerned, this is where our next attack will come from, believe me!!!:godzilla

[Deadshot]

Good God, Ringo. Actually shoot men and women trying to build a better life for themselves?

Our military, the United States military is about Honor more then anything else. Honorable men and women do not shoot unarmed "invaders" who are simply looking for a better life. Honorable people do not shoot people with children crossing a border. Honorable people do not kill with impunity.

One must assume that you are simply, not honorable.:hulk:deadshot

[Lone Laugher]

Toxic....I don't buy your premise...that we'll become a third world nation as a result of having several million Mexicans here. You are exhibiting an ethnocentric paranoia that does not jibe with your overall level of intelligence.

Stop illegal immigration? You bet.

Fear Mexicans? Nah. Hate Mexicans? No.

The names on restaurant marquees is a stupid thing to fear, in my opinion.

Take a look at this map...very few "Americans". Most of those other ethnicities spoke some other language as well...give it time...English isn't going anywhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USMapCommonAncestry2000.PNG

[toxic]

Toxic....I don't buy your premise...that we'll become a third world nation as a result of having several million Mexicans here. You are exhibiting an ethnocentric paranoia that does not jibe with your overall level of intelligence.

Stop illegal immigration? You bet.

Fear Mexicans? Nah. Hate Mexicans? No.

The names on restaurant marquees is a stupid thing to fear, in my opinion.

Take a look at this map...very few "Americans". Most of those other ethnicities spoke some other language as well...give it time...English isn't going anywhere.
...

This isn't a few people. this a million people each year, in addition to their Pope driven breeding program of a dozen kids each.

Even if we stopped the invasion today, they will still be the majority of Americans by 2050. I plan to be dead by 2050, do I don't give a shit about that.

But, if I wanted to live in a Mexican/Spanish culture, I'd go to Mexico. Yes, changing names, primary cruisine and printed literature of stores where I live IS changing our culture. Any store here who continues to put Spanish over English will pay for their choice.

If Mexicans want to live in a Mexican culture, then they had better stay in Mexico or convince those of America's English/West European culture to surrender. If you want to surrender - fine.

I've been to many mud-hut nations and don't care to live in any of them. I can appreciate their cultures and don't like Americans that try to impose our culture on them.

I don't fear Mexicans or hate them, but I'm more than willing to beat their ass to a pulp if they keep illegally invading my territory.

[Wabash]

Yes and No.

It WILL BE an election issue for me.

It WON'T BE an election issue for Americans who are trying to race to the bottom of the Third World.


I don't know which camp MOST Americans are in.
I want the illegals out...but I have to agree with DS on the fact that they are a necessary evil!!

I think most of the Americans are in my camp.

Do I want my job outsourced to an illegal, or anyone? No. But I know plenty of people who don't fall asleep on the job. Not because they're afraid of getting fired but because their company would steal and sell their kidney's for a profit!

That's the side of the coin so many Conservatives refuse to see. Why aren't we simply enforcing the laws on the books? If you hire an illegal we should crush your nuts in a vice!

The other side of the coin is that we're used to the cheap labor. I truly believe (as I think most fiscal Conservatives do - hence the reason nothing is being done about illegal immigration) that if illegals were to leave the price of food and homes would rise, ergo hurting our economy.

With that said, neither side is going to do a damn thing about it.
Agreed to some extent...we are in a real catch 22 with these buggers!

Anyone stupid enough to use the NY TIMES as a source, belongs to a group that services Chico & the Man!! You said earlier we shouldn't SHOOT em at the Border, WHY NOT?? They are INVADERS idiot and why should we help a corrupt damned Govt, unless it would be OUT of Power!!! This Nation needs to be AIRTIGHT as far as Mexicans and Mid Easteners are concerned, this is where our next attack will come from, believe me!!!:godzilla
I don't think we should shoot them carte blanche..

Good God, Ringo. Actually shoot men and women trying to build a better life for themselves?

Our military, the United States military is about Honor more then anything else. Honorable men and women do not shoot unarmed "invaders" who are simply looking for a better life. Honorable people do not shoot people with children crossing a border. Honorable people do not kill with impunity.

One must assume that you are simply, not honorable.:hulk:deadshot
Whoa Bubba...the military shouldn't even be involved in this...it is a policing action, not a hostile invasion.

[Lone Laugher]

Well then Toxic....I see you are going to be reasonable about things. Reasonably racist, that is.

[Wabash]

Well then Toxic....I see you are going to be reasonable about things. Reasonably racist, that is.

How is he being racist?

[toxic]

Well then Toxic....I see you are going to be reasonable about things. Reasonably racist, that is.

So, if I stand up for my homeland, my culture and the Law, I'm racist!!!!!!!!!!

No way. Don't be a limp rag.

It isn't illegal or racist to be White and proud.

I'm afraid there is a whole generation of Americans who have been kneeling to Afirmative Action so long, they think it is Natures Law.

[Capitalist]

I'm not a lawyer, but I think if you withhold them you'd better send them in. Its far easier to just not withhold them. I'd rather fight an army than mess with the government about money they think is owed them.

If they are illegal they are not going to file income taxes and they cannot go to anyone to complain even if they figured it out.

Besides the employer is already breaking the law just by hiring them.

[Wabash]

So, if I stand up for my homeland, my culture and the Law, I'm racist!!!!!!!!!!

No way. Don't be a limp rag.

It isn't illegal or racist to be White and proud.

I'm afraid there is a whole generation of Americans who have been kneeling to Afirmative Action so long, they think it is Natures Law.

We agree totally on this!!!:paclap:paclap:paclap

Nothing worse than leeches on society...and Affirmative Action supports leeches!

[Capitalist]

So you admit that, irregardless of your original post, that this issue will not be much of an election issue, correct?

It will be in states that are heavily infected. It will be here in TN and it is not yet that bad, but the mexicans are working on it.

There is one thing about the mexicans and south americans who come here illegally that i don't quite understand. They are so damn proud of their countries and their culture, yet their countries are such failures that they have to sneak in here work for less than the natives, just to survive. Is that really something to be proud of?

[Capitalist]

I think most of the Americans are in my camp.

Do I want my job outsourced to an illegal, or anyone? No. But I know plenty of people who don't fall asleep on the job. Not because they're afraid of getting fired but because their company would steal and sell their kidney's for a profit!

That's the side of the coin so many Conservatives refuse to see. Why aren't we simply enforcing the laws on the books? If you hire an illegal we should crush your nuts in a vice!

The other side of the coin is that we're used to the cheap labor. I truly believe (as I think most fiscal Conservatives do - hence the reason nothing is being done about illegal immigration) that if illegals were to leave the price of food and homes would rise, ergo hurting our economy.

With that said, neither side is going to do a damn thing about it.

A small in crease in prices is worth it as many underpaid and unemployed Americans could get jobs that paid enough to live on.

Not to mention that the entry level jobs are the ones most of the Mexicans are taking. You don't get to climb the ladder if all the bottom rungs are taken by illegal.

The reason nothing has been done to enforce existing laws is that the republican leadership likes the lower prices and they are afraid that if the crack down the legal and voting hispanics will vote for the democrats.

The democrat don't do anything because they want the hispanic vote and they don't even care if they vote before they are citizens as long as they voted democrat. If these people were voting republican the democrats would lead the charge to get rid of them claiming that they are hurting lower middle class wages, which they are already doing.

[Capitalist]

Good God, Ringo. Actually shoot men and women trying to build a better life for themselves?

Our military, the United States military is about Honor more then anything else. Honorable men and women do not shoot unarmed "invaders" who are simply looking for a better life. Honorable people do not shoot people with children crossing a border. Honorable people do not kill with impunity.

One must assume that you are simply, not honorable.:hulk:deadshot

No, people illegally invading the country. That is not with impunity, that is very 'targeted', pun intended.

[Capitalist]

Toxic....I don't buy your premise...that we'll become a third world nation as a result of having several million Mexicans here. You are exhibiting an ethnocentric paranoia that does not jibe with your overall level of intelligence.

Stop illegal immigration? You bet.

Fear Mexicans? Nah. Hate Mexicans? No.

The names on restaurant marquees is a stupid thing to fear, in my opinion.

Take a look at this map...very few "Americans". Most of those other ethnicities spoke some other language as well...give it time...English isn't going anywhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USMapCommonAncestry2000.PNG

I don't fear Mexicans, I fear their failed and corrupt culture. They don't assimilate very easily or very well. You need only go into 'their' communities to discover that.

This 12 to 20 million, if given citizenship, will then start to bring in family members and turm that 12 to 20 million into 50 million. But they won't be the best and brightest of Mexico, they will be the poor and the ignorant, they will have children here at a rate far higher than the rest of us. it is a bad idea fiscally and culturally to let so many poor from any country come here.

[Wabash]

It will be in states that are heavily infected. It will be here in TN and it is not yet that bad, but the mexicans are working on it.

There is one thing about the mexicans and south americans who come here illegally that i don't quite understand. They are so damn proud of their countries and their culture, yet their countries are such failures that they have to sneak in here work for less than the natives, just to survive. Is that really something to be proud of?
Exactly!

A small in crease in prices is worth it as many underpaid and unemployed Americans could get jobs that paid enough to live on.

Not to mention that the entry level jobs are the ones most of the Mexicans are taking. You don't get to climb the ladder if all the bottom rungs are taken by illegal.

The reason nothing has been done to enforce existing laws is that the republican leadership likes the lower prices and they are afraid that if the crack down the legal and voting hispanics will vote for the democrats.

The democrat don't do anything because they want the hispanic vote and they don't even care if they vote before they are citizens as long as they voted democrat. If these people were voting republican the democrats would lead the charge to get rid of them claiming that they are hurting lower middle class wages, which they are already doing.
Exactly again....

No, people illegally invading the country. That is not with impunity, that is very 'targeted', pun intended.
Yep!

I don't fear Mexicans, I fear their failed and corrupt culture. They don't assimilate very easily or very well. You need only go into 'their' communities to discover that.

This 12 to 20 million, if given citizenship, will then start to bring in family members and turm that 12 to 20 million into 50 million. But they won't be the best and brightest of Mexico, they will be the poor and the ignorant, they will have children here at a rate far higher than the rest of us. it is a bad idea fiscally and culturally to let so many poor from any country come here.
This is already happening in Calf.! These assholes are and have invaded and fucked their way to a higher number and are now fucking over Ca.!
If we don't stop it soon, than we are .....SCREWED!
Question to the Left: How many of these ignorant bastards do you think can converse on this board with any degree of intelligence, once they take over the country?

[Capitalist]

Exactly!


Exactly again....


Yep!


This is already happening in Calf.! These assholes are and have invaded and fucked their way to a higher number and are now fucking over Ca.!
If we don't stop it soon, than we are .....SCREWED!
Question to the Left: How many of these ignorant bastards do you think can converse on this board with any degree of intelligence, once they take over the country?

am afraid ca is already lost in more ways than 1.

Not long ago I was offered a job there. A very high paying gig, a very responsible job. I turned it down, no way would I live in california, not a chance.

[Lone Laugher]

Homeland?

What is this, a Stephen King Novel?

Culture?

This is America..the culture is a combo platter. It changes.....embrace it.

White and proud? Is there anything dumber than being proud of one of the only things that you have no influence upon? You were born that way. I wonder if you would have any chance of being a proud American if one of your parents wasn't white?

Your comments in this thread are nothing to be proud of.

[Capitalist]

Homeland?

What is this, a Stephen King Novel?

Culture?

This is America..the culture is a combo platter. It changes.....embrace it.

White and proud? Is there anything dumber than being proud of one of the only things that you have no influence upon? You were born that way. I wonder if you would have any chance of being a proud American if one of your parents wasn't white?

Your comments in this thread are nothing to be proud of.

Did I say shit about being white moron?

Our culture is one of the rule of law not of men. It is one of capitalism and merit.

Mexico and SouthAmerica's culture is one of upper and lower classes, you are born in and expected to stay put. The government and the police are as corrupt as can be.

I don't want that bullshit here. They do not obey our laws and they don't even think they have to.

I don't want any poor and ignorant people to be allowed here, we have plenty already.

[Lone Laugher]

I wasn't answering you...moron.

[Capitalist]

I wasn't answering you...moron.

Then quote who you are answering foo.

Besides, if I wanted to have white pride, why can't I?

I don't think in those terms, but what if I did?

[toxic]

Homeland?
What is this, a Stephen King Novel?
Culture?
This is America..the culture is a combo platter. It changes.....embrace it.
White and proud? Is there anything dumber than being proud of one of the only things that you have no influence upon? You were born that way. I wonder if you would have any chance of being a proud American if one of your parents wasn't white?
Your comments in this thread are nothing to be proud of.

When is the last time you were back in the USA? It may seem a combo if you are on military bases, but the core is something that has become to an "American Culture". It has some white, brown, yellow, red and black, but it is American. The new illegals are fully 100% Spanish.

I'm sorry if you are ashamed of what you are. I guess you have spent so much time honoring the other races that you have forgot your own culture or somehow feel SUBORDINATE.

I left California after looking at a house in Orange County. I watched my potential neighbors (dad, mom,+ few kids), pull the landscape bark out of the flowerbed at the model home, pull out a kettle and started a fire on the sidewalk and began to boil water. I left before they found a cat to kill.

I had high hopes for America moving ahead when I was a kid. I imagine a society of bright wealthy people, pushing science and technology to the limits. Helping the 3rd world too, but keeping out in front forever.

Today, everyone wants to find the stupidest diseased parsites on the planet and invite them to America, so they can cook on the sidewalk. Perhaps they are trying to find someone below them in the food chain. No thanks - I don't need to do that.

[toxic]

...There is one thing about the mexicans and south americans who come here illegally that i don't quite understand. They are so damn proud of their countries and their culture, yet their countries are such failures that they have to sneak in here work for less than the natives, just to survive. Is that really something to be proud of?

I think that is an important point.

The foreigners "apparently" love their culture but can't wait to get the hell out of their country.

They bring their Love-Hate culture to America and make it our problem.

America doesn't need to change to suit their desires.

[Lone Laugher]

Toxic.....my grandparents were 100% Italian and they became 100% American in less than a generation. My father could speak about 100 phrases in Italian...and I am lucky to be able to read the menu at an Italian restaurant. I am thankful that this country accepted them ( or at least let them come here and gave them the time needed to assimilate ).

You are indicting these 100% Spanish folks for attempting to accomplish the same thing....and it is simply because you detest them and their culture.

My son was unable to speak much English at all until the age of 7....when we moved back to the US....he is now 19 and speaks nothing but English. You are too hung up on the differences between people to see the similarities. Relax...it will all work out in the end. And you will not have to beat anyone's ass or shoot anyone.

I am about done with this topic...you are hell bent on fixing the problems that you see with solutions that just resemble more problems to me.

[Wabash]

Did I say shit about being white moron?

Our culture is one of the rule of law not of men. It is one of capitalism and merit.

Mexico and SouthAmerica's culture is one of upper and lower classes, you are born in and expected to stay put. The government and the police are as corrupt as can be.

I don't want that bullshit here. They do not obey our laws and they don't even think they have to.

I don't want any poor and ignorant people to be allowed here, we have plenty already.
Amen to that...I see plenty of it here in Oregon...they buy cheap crap cars, no drivers' lic., no insurance...crash into somebody and walk away...who picks up the tab for the repairs and funerals? The legal American taxpayer!
When is the last time you were back in the USA? It may seem a combo if you are on military bases, but the core is something that has become to an "American Culture". It has some white, brown, yellow, red and black, but it is American. The new illegals are fully 100% Spanish.

I'm sorry if you are ashamed of what you are. I guess you have spent so much time honoring the other races that you have forgot your own culture or somehow feel SUBORDINATE.

I left California after looking at a house in Orange County. I watched my potential neighbors (dad, mom,+ few kids), pull the landscape bark out of the flowerbed at the model home, pull out a kettle and started a fire on the sidewalk and began to boil water. I left before they found a cat to kill.

I had high hopes for America moving ahead when I was a kid. I imagine a society of bright wealthy people, pushing science and technology to the limits. Helping the 3rd world too, but keeping out in front forever.

Today, everyone wants to find the stupidest diseased parsites on the planet and invite them to America, so they can cook on the sidewalk. Perhaps they are trying to find someone below them in the food chain. No thanks - I don't need to do that.
Amen to that too! I've seen it many times....

I think that is an important point.

The foreigners "apparently" love their culture but can't wait to get the hell out of their country.

They bring their Love-Hate culture to America and make it our problem.

America doesn't need to change to suit their desires.
Damn right it's important point!

[Wabash]

LL......my grandparents also came from Europe, could speak little English, my Mom and Dad taught me about 10 words in Italian and German....I learned more of both by visiting there.
Point is...these beaners are nothing like the Italians, Germans, Slavs, Irish, Dutch, Jews, etc.....the difference, the majority of those peoples were proud of their heritage and equally proud to be an American. Most came over legally, embraced this country and it's laws. Assimilated into society and showed respect! They worked hard, educated their children, and made huge contributions to our country.

The South of the Border crowd, on rare occasions does that.... but most, could give a fuck about anything or anybody.....they breed gangs, they breed disease, they breed disrespect and they literally trash a neighborhood with 3rd world contempt! They aren't proud...they are indignant!

[Lone Laugher]

That is ridiculous. As I said earlier...it is far more productive ( and certainly more difficult ) to focus on the similarities and not so much on the differences.

[Wabash]

That is ridiculous. As I said earlier...it is far more productive ( and certainly more difficult ) to focus on the similarities and not so much on the differences.

They are usually anatomically correct...like us...the differences after that are....................Vast!

I know, given your persuasion, that your mind has a hard time wrapping itself around some of these more conservative concepts LL....but make an attempt...it's painless....well, nearly painless... :LL

Bottom line, living around these folks, like I have in the past in Ca., was like the dumbing down of America...I'm happy to be away from them...

[toxic]

Toxic.....my grandparents were 100% Italian and they became 100% American in less than a generation. My father could speak about 100 phrases in Italian...and I am lucky to be able to read the menu at an Italian restaurant. I am thankful that this country accepted them ( or at least let them come here and gave them the time needed to assimilate ).

You are indicting these 100% Spanish folks for attempting to accomplish the same thing....and it is simply because you detest them and their culture.

My son was unable to speak much English at all until the age of 7....when we moved back to the US....he is now 19 and speaks nothing but English. You are too hung up on the differences between people to see the similarities. Relax...it will all work out in the end. And you will not have to beat anyone's ass or shoot anyone.

I am about done with this topic...you are hell bent on fixing the problems that you see with solutions that just resemble more problems to me.

Okay, but just take a good look at my Avatar.

Did your Grandparents act like that?

I'm done for tonight too.

[issac the dragon]

I'm half Irish. I know that when the Irish came here, they could not read or write. Their English lords did not allow them to be taught. They were as ignorant as dirt. They rented the cheapest places they could find and lived twenty to a one bedroom. They were rowdy, and drunks. Nobody wanted them here except southerners who considered them better than freed slaves. The Irish worked it out. Or actually their children did.

I want legal immigration, not illegal, but I won't join anyone in putting people down for their ignorance when it wasn't a matter of choice.

[toxic]

I'm half Irish. I know that when the Irish came here, they could not read or write. Their English lords did not allow them to be taught. They were as ignorant as dirt. They rented the cheapest places they could find and lived twenty to a one bedroom. They were rowdy, and drunks. Nobody wanted them here except southerners who considered them better than freed slaves. The Irish worked it out. Or actually their children did.

I want legal immigration, not illegal, but I won't join anyone in putting people down for their ignorance when it wasn't a matter of choice.

This is not 1850 and by that rational, we should import every worthless piece of dogshit in the world to the USA, so you can mother them. No thanks.

I have no respect for or inclination to help anyone who is willing to walk away from their extended family and culture, just to make a quick buck and collect US welfare.

But, mostly, this is about retaining a 1st world standard of living for US citizens, so you will be able to help "some" people, rather than being unable to support yourself.

Hopfully, people we do choose to help will have enough love for their Homeland that they desire to stay in THEIR OWN COUNTRY and improve it.

[Capitalist]

Toxic.....my grandparents were 100% Italian and they became 100% American in less than a generation. My father could speak about 100 phrases in Italian...and I am lucky to be able to read the menu at an Italian restaurant. I am thankful that this country accepted them ( or at least let them come here and gave them the time needed to assimilate ).

You are indicting these 100% Spanish folks for attempting to accomplish the same thing....and it is simply because you detest them and their culture.

My son was unable to speak much English at all until the age of 7....when we moved back to the US....he is now 19 and speaks nothing but English. You are too hung up on the differences between people to see the similarities. Relax...it will all work out in the end. And you will not have to beat anyone's ass or shoot anyone.

I am about done with this topic...you are hell bent on fixing the problems that you see with solutions that just resemble more problems to me.

This is a different group of immigrants, first they are breaking the law to get here. Secnd, they are not being vetted in any way, third, they are not being checked for diseases.

Another thing to note is that Italy is accross an ocean from us and 10% of their population did not move her.

In the past we had a vast and basically unsettled country past the eastern states. We needed warm bodies to do the manual labor jobs.

In the past they did not come here and have government programs to feed clothe and educate their children. If they could not make it TS, they either starved or went back.

It is a different tim eand a different situation today than in the past.

It will destroy our country (at least a s we know it) if we don't do something to stop it.

[Capitalist]

That is ridiculous. As I said earlier...it is far more productive ( and certainly more difficult ) to focus on the similarities and not so much on the differences.

What are the similarities? I have nothing in common with a poor ignorant person coming in to MY country and breaking the law.

NOTHING...

[Cookie Parker]

What are the similarities? I have nothing in common with a poor ignorant person coming in to MY country and breaking the law.

NOTHING...

Clarification. Those people were actively recruited by YOUR govenment and CORPORATIONS to come here and work for less. HUGE difference to have the government turn a blind eye to their being "illegal". The fact that the corporations are NOT stopped from doing it is proof enough they will continue to come here.

As to ignorant, anyone who keeps this corrupt Bush and Co in office certainly can't claim to be bright, IMHO.

[Capitalist]

I'm half Irish. I know that when the Irish came here, they could not read or write. Their English lords did not allow them to be taught. They were as ignorant as dirt. They rented the cheapest places they could find and lived twenty to a one bedroom. They were rowdy, and drunks. Nobody wanted them here except southerners who considered them better than freed slaves. The Irish worked it out. Or actually their children did.

I want legal immigration, not illegal, but I won't join anyone in putting people down for their ignorance when it wasn't a matter of choice.

In Mexico it is a choice, they could do as we did and change their government, but they choose not to.

Mexico is a shithole because of the government their people have allowed to rule them for hundreds of years. They have always had resources nearly equal to the US.

I don't want them here in the numebrs they are. I don't want the ignorant ones who offer nothing but a strong back. I don't want that from any country on earth.

I don't think we should allow a single immigrant, legal or otherwise, into this country unless they have the means to support themselves, NO exceptions.

[Capitalist]

Clarification. Those people were actively recruited by YOUR govenment and CORPORATIONS to come here and work for less. HUGE difference to have the government turn a blind eye to their being "illegal". The fact that the corporations are NOT stopped from doing it is proof enough they will continue to come here.

As to ignorant, anyone who keeps this corrupt Bush and Co in office certainly can't claim to be bright, IMHO.

Oh , bullshit, with you it is all about slaming republicans and corporations.

I am fine with shutting down companies that hire them knowingly.

Like I said i have nothing in common with them and they do not belong here.

[toxic]

In Mexico it is a choice, they could do as we did and change their government, but they choose not to.

Mexico is a shithole because of the government their people have allowed to rule them for hundreds of years. They have always had resources nearly equal to the US.

I don't want them here in the numebrs they are. I don't want the ignorant ones who offer nothing but a strong back. I don't want that from any country on earth.

I don't think we should allow a single immigrant, legal or otherwise, into this country unless they have the means to support themselves, NO exceptions.

I mostly agree, except remember that those that "have the means to support themselves", work at half the rate of professional Americans.

Take another look at the 1st post in this thread, where 45% of North Texas Unemployed High Technology Workers have taken a 40% pay cut to find a new job.

Here in Texas, they claimed a "shortage of engineers: when 250,000 high tech workers were UNEMPLOYED in Dallas and Fort Worth. Claiming a shortage allowed employers to bring in Asian H-1B Visa workers.

Perhaps the last paragraph is of little concern to most, but it would be wise to think through the implications of EVERYONE in the United States taking a 50% pay cut as foreign workers take their place.