Calling the Bullies' Bluff

[Trueblue]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/178739.php

I can’t remember which show it was – something like the Brady Bunch – where the protagonist is being picked on by a bully and at a certain point lashes out and inadvertently bloodies the bully’s nose (and ends the bully’s tyrannical reign, etc). It seems that the House may have inadvertently done just this. In the face of an all-too-familiar pattern of administration fear mongering instead of cowedly acceding to the administration’s wishes (and tacitly reinforcing the effectiveness of the administration’s fearmongering) the House seems, through something other than a concerted response, to have stumbled into a situation where they have bloodied the administration’s nose. Short of cancelling his Africa trip and spending all of next week demagoging this issue, I don’t see how the admin keeps their credibility on this. A line has been crossed.

[April15]

Bush should have been gone by now!

[AYFR]

Wow THREE threads about this. One thread would have been enough ya know

http://forums.thepoliticalasylum.com/showthread.php?t=17303

http://forums.thepoliticalasylum.com/showthread.php?t=17283

[Trueblue]

Well I guess we're just excited to see the Dems stand up to the sorry bastard.

On a related note, McCain was lying his ass off on the campaign trail, saying that because of yesterday's vote, the President couldn't use the FISA court. :mad Look America, here's your chance to elect somebody else who can lie you into a war.

[Matt]

Come on, Rev. Give us a break.
We've been waiting a year for this.
I think 3 threads are too few considering the number of years FISA regs have been under seize.
:twirl

[Ringo]

These FISA Regs, tell me how they have effected a couple of Country Bumpkins like you two, Matt & TB?

Tell me how the Patriot Act has effected your little world of virtual NON IMPORTANCE?

Hasn't done anything to me, of course I don't beller Allah is great and slam planes into buildings, or COWARDLY blow up women & children or send mentally challenged people into buildings and then blow them up!!

Bush has brought that bullshit to a complete halt and if you could get past the SPEECH Making NO SUBSTANCE, Muslim sympathizer, Odummy, you might enlighten your view! Helps me up here in SD, well excuse me, gotta find a good piece piece of straw to chew on, and look folksy....HEE HAW!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqnm3A10m8I

[Trueblue]

These FISA Regs, tell me how they have effected a couple of Country Bumpkins like you two, Matt & TB?

Tell me how the Patriot Act has effected your little world of virtual NON IMPORTANCE?

Consistency is not your strong point, is it, Ringo? You beller about "jack-booted thugs", but don't mind if the thugs are doing their dirty work at the behest of a Publican, do you. Real logical. :rofl

Hasn't done anything to me, of course I don't beller Allah is great and slam planes into buildings, or COWARDLY blow up women & children or send mentally challenged people into buildings and then blow them up!!

How do you know it hasn't done anything to you? You need to read a newspaper once in a while.

Bush has brought that bullshit to a complete halt and if you could get past the SPEECH Making NO SUBSTANCE, Muslim sympathizer, Odummy, you might enlighten your view! Helps me up here in SD, well excuse me, gotta find a good piece piece of straw to chew on, and look folksy....HEE HAW!!!

What's been brought to a halt is Bush's nonsense. To credit him for the lack of terrorist attacks is one of the most pathetically lame things anybody has ever said.

And if you actually were capable of independent thought, you'd realize that Obama has plenty of substance. For instance, he beats the socks off of Guliani and Thompson, your big heroes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqnm3A10m8I

[Yellowdogtexan]

Wow THREE threads about this. One thread would have been enough ya know
http://forums.thepoliticalasylum.com/showthread.php?t=17303
http://forums.thepoliticalasylum.com/showthread.php?t=17283The walkout was due to in large part to the ethics complaint against Miers and Bolton that was passed by the House. The republicans know that the bushies will lose when the strange claims of executive privilege go to court and were trying to stop this. The Democrats had delayed bringing this issue up in part because the repugs had threathened bad behavior if the House voted to put some bushies in jail. The republicans carried through with their promises and disrupted a funeral/memorial service by calling for a vote on a motion to adjourn during the middle of that service and then did their impotent little walkout that gained them nothing.

The republicans showed their true nature last week and I am glad that the House Democratic leadership stood up these morons

[Yellowdogtexan]

Bush has brought that bullshit to a complete halt Ringo, you are so poorly informed that it is funny. Again, the debate on FISA is not about safety but about immunity for telecoms. The bushies have admitted that the extension of the FISA act was not needed and the real issue was immunity for the telecoms. http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/02/15/poe/index.htmlIn a surprisingly decent interview with Mike McConnell on NPR, the interviewer provoked McConnell into giving the lie to the President's shrill fear-mongering (h/t Julian Sanchez, via email):
BUSH: Failure to act would harm our ability to monitor new terrorist activities, and could re-open dangerous gaps in our intelligence.

NPR: Mr. McConnell, the Bush administration says that if the Protect America Act isn't made permanent, it will tie your hands, intelligence hands, especially when it comes to new threats. But isn't it true that any surveillance underway does not expire, even if this law isn't renewed by tomorrow?

MCCONNELL: Well, Renee it's a very complex issue. It's true that some of the authorities would carry over to the period they were established for one year. That would put us into the August, September time-frame. However, that's not the real issue. The issue is liability protection for the private sector.
The very idea that expiration of the PAA would leave us with "intelligence gaps" is absurd on its face, since we simply revert to the more-than-adequate FISA framework. But even if it were true, those gaps could easily be closed if the administration simply accepted a bill without telecom amnesty.

The issue is not "intelligence gaps." Rather, as McConnell candidly admits, the "real issue" is "liability protection for the private sector." To take them at their word, George Bush and Mike McConnell are putting the nation at risk in order to ensure that AT&T and Verizon do not have to be held accountable in a court of law for having broken the law. Think about how twisted and corrupt that calculus is. Safety and prevention of terra attacks is not the reason for this impass. The reason is solely the grant of immunity to the telecom companies. I hope that this simple explanation has helped you.

[Cookie Parker]

These FISA Regs, tell me how they have effected a couple of Country Bumpkins like you two, Matt & TB?

Tell me how the Patriot Act has effected your little world of virtual NON IMPORTANCE?

Hasn't done anything to me, of course I don't beller Allah is great and slam planes into buildings, or COWARDLY blow up women & children or send mentally challenged people into buildings and then blow them up!!

Bush has brought that bullshit to a complete halt and if you could get past the SPEECH Making NO SUBSTANCE, Muslim sympathizer, Odummy, you might enlighten your view! Helps me up here in SD, well excuse me, gotta find a good piece piece of straw to chew on, and look folksy....HEE HAW!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqnm3A10m8I

Sorry, Ringo, but this has been answered to you at least a dozen or more times.

Problem with you is you like fascism...you think because you like Bush, he'll like you, too. While nothing could be further from the truth, (ask his military personnel and how their rights to treatment from the war are working out for them), you, in your small mind, just can't let go of the idea.

Take you narrowminded thoughts and your inability to read and comprehend articles not filled with hate and killing and have these keep you company when you lose everything, go to jail for trying to feed your family, and are tortured without charges in Saudi Arabia.

[Trueblue]

I've been looking for the post where Ringo announced that he was for a couple of Pub candidates, and that which ever of them chose General Petraeus as a running mate would easily march into the WH amid cheers from the public.

As if all the public wanted was some alleged conservative with a military strong man at his side, and we'd be happy living under the rule of our glorious leader. :twitch

[Yellowdogtexan]

Here is the joint statement of House Speaker Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Reid on the Protect America Act. http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=1145Washington, D.C. - Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid issued the following statement this afternoon on the expiration of the Protect America Act:“The Protect America Act will expire only because the President and congressional Republicans refused to approve an extension of that law. Their true concern here is not national security. Rather, they want to protect the financial interests of telecommunications companies and avoid judicial scrutiny of their warrantless wiretapping program.

“Congressional Democrats will continue to work on a bipartisan basis to finalize a strong law. As we do, there should be no question in anyone’s mind that U.S. intelligence agencies have the legal ability to take all actions necessary to protect the security of the American people. For anyone to suggest otherwise is irresponsible and totally inaccurate.

“In particular, the law protects telecommunication carriers, and we will ensure that no lawfully cooperating carrier is disadvantaged by the President’s decision to block a brief extension of the Protect America Act.”This fight is solely over the protection of the telecom companies.

[Lone Laugher]

I think the folks that made use of the illegally mined data are also looking to save their asses.

[Trueblue]

I think the folks that made use of the illegally mined data are also looking to save their asses.

:werd

[jim]

I've been looking for the post where Ringo announced that he was for a couple of Pub candidates, and that which ever of them chose General Petraeus as a running mate would easily march into the WH amid cheers from the public.

As if all the public wanted was some alleged conservative with a military strong man at his side, and we'd be happy living under the rule of our glorious leader. :twitch

Yep: Big Brother!:godzilla:

[Matt]

Ringo, you are so poorly informed that it is funny. Again, the debate on FISA is not about safety but about immunity for telecoms. The bushies have admitted that the extension of the FISA act was not needed and the real issue was immunity for the telecoms. http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/02/15/poe/index.html Safety and prevention of terra attacks is not the reason for this impass. The reason is solely the grant of immunity to the telecom companies. I hope that this simple explanation has helped you.

We've done all we can to help the SD cowboy.
NPR ~ YES
Rush ~ NO

I know I felt much safer knowing that the telephone companies, who lied to me twice last year about their promos, were safe from prosecution because they allowed my government to see how much I participate in the Democratic party, among other such devious behaviors. :twitch

[Ringo]

Ringo, you are so poorly informed that it is funny. Again, the debate on FISA is not about safety but about immunity for telecoms. The bushies have admitted that the extension of the FISA act was not needed and the real issue was immunity for the telecoms. http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/02/15/poe/index.html Safety and prevention of terra attacks is not the reason for this impass. The reason is solely the grant of immunity to the telecom companies. I hope that this simple explanation has helped you.

You know all you pussies that make fun of a possible TERRA attack sometimes I wish on an individual...nah maybe not, but go stand at ground zero and make fun of the war on terror! Keep your entitlement insurance up to date as those New Youka's will tear you a new ass punk!

Whats your opinion on the TERRORISTS destroying Israel? Probably don't bother you much as I think you are just a seminar J.........:mw

[Trueblue]

You know all you pussies that make fun of a possible TERRA attack sometimes I wish on an individual...nah maybe not, but go stand at ground zero and make fun of the war on terror! Keep your entitlement insurance up to date as those New Youka's will tear you a new ass punk!

Whats your opinion on the TERRORISTS destroying Israel? Probably don't bother you much as I think you are just a seminar J.........:mw

There are many New Yorkers who agree with YDT, Ringo. There are 9/11 families who would find your rhetoric very offensive, but they might let you keep your current asshole. Lucky for you!

I'm interested in your negative comments towards YDT's faith, similarly, I have often wondered what is Christian about your world view and behavior.

Like the the New Yorkers for which you claim to speak, there are varying views among Jews about Israel.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Speaker Pelosi was correct in allowing the PPA to expire and to not give into the fear mongering and bully tactics of the bushies. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/15/washington/15fisa.html?ex=1360818000&en=1eee69da2566d40c&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rssBut Ms. Pelosi and other House Democrats said Mr. Bush and Congressional Republicans were at fault because they had resisted temporarily extending the bill to allow disagreements to be worked out. Democrats would not be bullied into approving a measure they considered flawed, she said.

“The president knows full well that he has all the authority he needs to protect the American people,” said Ms. Pelosi, who then referred to President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s admonition about fearing only fear itself. “President Bush tells the American people that he has nothing to offer but fear, and I’m afraid that his fear-mongering of this bill is not constructive.”

The decision by the House Democratic leadership to let the law lapse is the greatest challenge to Mr. Bush on a major national security issue since the Democrats took control of Congress last year.

Last summer, Democrats allowed the surveillance law to be put in place for six months although many of them opposed it. They have also relented in fights over spending on the Iraq war under White House pressure. But with Mr. Bush rated low in public opinion polls as he enters the last months of his presidency, Democrats are showing more willingness to challenge him.

[Ringo]

We've done all we can to help the SD cowboy.
NPR ~ YES
Rush ~ NO

I know I felt much safer knowing that the telephone companies, who lied to me twice last year about their promos, were safe from prosecution because they allowed my government to see how much I participate in the Democratic party, among other such devious behaviors. :twitch

SD Cowboy?? Yeah but ya forgot Stallion Matt?? Well thanks for the nice label darlin, but I am not really a Cowboy, I just have a few horses and a couple of fast cars!! Beware the Bad Boy mam!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uW70Yvj6Xs

[Lone Laugher]

Ringo's got that special edge today....fun for everyone!!!

[Matt]

You know all you pussies that make fun of a possible TERRA attack sometimes I wish on an individual...nah maybe not, but go stand at ground zero and make fun of the war on terror! Keep your entitlement insurance up to date as those New Youka's will tear you a new ass punk!


To date I have seen no one make fun of the war on terror. The disagreement is with the handling of the situation from Iraq to Gitmo and all the years, deaths and lies in between.
Had it not been for so many falling for the fear tactics of the Bush administration, and the inept people that he put into positions of power after the ill conceived war in Iraq, our country and the world would not be in such threat of harm.

[Wabash]

Consistency is not your strong point, is it, Ringo? You beller about "jack-booted thugs", but don't mind if the thugs are doing their dirty work at the behest of a Publican, do you. Real logical. :rofl



How do you know it hasn't done anything to you? You need to read a newspaper once in a while.



What's been brought to a halt is Bush's nonsense. To credit him for the lack of terrorist attacks is one of the most pathetically lame things anybody has ever said.

And if you actually were capable of independent thought, you'd realize that Obama has plenty of substance. For instance, he beats the socks off of Guliani and Thompson, your big heroes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqnm3A10m8I
It hasn't done anything to any law abiding citizen...you guys with "the sky is falling" rhetoric are pretty funny!
The walkout was due to in large part to the ethics complaint against Miers and Bolton that was passed by the House. The republicans know that the bushies will lose when the strange claims of executive privilege go to court and were trying to stop this. The Democrats had delayed bringing this issue up in part because the repugs had threathened bad behavior if the House voted to put some bushies in jail. The republicans carried through with their promises and disrupted a funeral/memorial service by calling for a vote on a motion to adjourn during the middle of that service and then did their impotent little walkout that gained them nothing.

The republicans showed their true nature last week and I am glad that the House Democratic leadership stood up these morons
Well see what all the chest beating will get them in the long run....Hey...whatever happened to Tom DeLay, has that been thrown out yet?
What did they do about Rummy? Any charges brought against him yet?

You guys are pathetic....the House flexes what little muscle it has and you guys go apeshit! I remember when the Demos were running roughshod of Pubs for 40 years....you all were happy about that huh?
I think this is all much ado about nothing...just like most everything else Demos do!

[Trueblue]

It hasn't done anything to any law abiding citizen...you guys with "the sky is falling" rhetoric are pretty funny!

Well see what all the chest beating will get them in the long run....Hey...whatever happened to Tom DeLay, has that been thrown out yet?
What did they do about Rummy? Any charges brought against him yet?

You guys are pathetic....the House flexes what little muscle it has and you guys go apeshit! I remember when the Demos were running roughshod of Pubs for 40 years....you all were happy about that huh?
I think this is all much ado about nothing...just like most everything else Demos do!



Actually, I believe it has done something to law abiding citizens.

The executive branch has overreached its authority. I like the BOR, even if you don't.

[Wabash]

Actually, I believe it has done something to law abiding citizens.

The executive branch has overreached its authority. I like the BOR, even if you don't.

BOR....?? Blonde on Regis?:LL

Clinton overreached his all the time and not a word from Libs...or the Dems....was spoken...you guys are kinda one way about things...read my sig.

[Trueblue]

BOR....?? Blonde on Regis?:LL

Clinton overreached his all the time and not a word from Libs...or the Dems....was spoken...you guys are kinda one way about things...read my sig.

Yeah, and you read mine. :D

Clinton didn't do these things, Wabash. You make a mountain out of a molehill if it's Clinton, to try to hide Bush's sins. It just won't work.

[Trueblue]

http://mediamatters.org/items/200512240002

[jim]

If the Republicans were so great: Why didn't they straighten up the economy???Because they are crooked as a barrel of snakes and most of them are equally as stupid!! that's why!!:ringo:godzilla:rooster

[Yellowdogtexan]

Hey...whatever happened to Tom DeLay, has that been thrown out yet?Are you senile? I have explained this to you before but evidently you are incapable of keeping a thought in your head (much like I have had to explan the Jewish tradition of not spelling the name of G-d several times to you). Delay delayed the trial for a couple of years on an appeal. Now the trial is being delayed still further while Delay's co-defendants purse separate appeals on different pre-trial issues. The Travis County DA still hopes to try Delay before he retires if these appeals can be resolved.

If Delay was so innocent, why has he and his co-defenndants used every procedural trick in the book to delay their trial?

The good news that a significant amount of Repblican campaign contributions raised by Delay under false pretenses have gone to Delay's attorney who is a good democrat and who has in turn made contributions to democrats. It is very amusing to me that when a repug gets charged with a crime, these repugs turn to Democratic lawyers. rush relied on Roy Black and the ACLU and Rove relied on a motorcycle riding democratic defense attorney (former hippie type) to get off.

[Yellowdogtexan]

http://mediamatters.org/items/200512240002Don't confuse the conservatives with facts. They do not understand or believe in facts. Facts do not exist in their alternative reality and facts get in the way of their silly claims and stupid positions.

[AYFR]

YDT
1) you are stereotyping again. That would like me saying that all liberals live in a fantasy world where violence doesn't exist and all people can be reasoned with.

2) MM is hardly a non-biased organization.
Hillary
"We are certainly better prepared and more focused on, you know, taking our arguments, and making them effective, and disseminating them widely, and really putting together a network, uh, in the blogosphere, in a lot of the new progressive infrastructure, institutions that I helped to start and support like Media Matters and Center for American Progress"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbzC6-N9mwM

Any organization that the Clintons helped start is far from unbiased and non-agenda related.

[Yellowdogtexan]

I truly pity conservatives. They can not deal with facts and instead have to attack the sources. It would be nice to find a conseravtive who did not rely on such silly tactics and instead actually looked at the facts. If someone had looked at the facts, they would know that the facts and arguements raised in media matters piece are common knowledge. However, it is far easier to attack the source rather than deal with the facts raised by a source.

Lets update these arguments a bit. Please look at this intereview from Senator Reed. http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/02/17/late-edition-senator-jack-reed-dispels-gop-fisa-liesDemocratic Senator and member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Jack Reed, appeared on Late Edition and did a great job of debunking the lies and spin being floated by President Bush and the GOP on FISA. As Juan Williams did earlier on Fox News Sunday, Reed makes it clear that allowing the flawed FISA legislation passed last August to lapse does not mean the U.S. can’t do surveillance on suspected terrorists.

Host Wolf Blitzer floated out the exact same argument William Kristol did on Fox, which is this notion that Director of National Intelligence, Mike McConnell, is some sort of apolitical figure and somehow that makes him more believable. Reed shot that down, reminding Blitzer that the previous FISA laws are still in place and that U.S. intelligence can still go after suspects for several days before requesting a warrant. Senator Reed does a good job of explaining the issues here and even a conservative who is afraid of facts should be able to understand the concepts.

No doubt the silly conservatives will dismiss the facts raised by Senator Reed on the grounds that he gave these facts on a liberal media source or someother such silliness.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Since Media Matters was too liberal of a source for silly and ignorant conservatives to accept or deal with, lets go to a very conservative publication and see if this makes these silly conservatives happy. The Washington Times is extremely conservative but yet has the integrity to debunk the bushies stupid claims. http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080216/NATION/847451166/1002Many intelligence scholars and analysts outside the government say that today's expiration of certain temporary domestic wiretapping laws will have little effect on national security, despite warnings to the contrary by the White House and Capitol Hill Republican leaders.

With the Protect America Act expiring this weekend, domestic wiretapping rules will revert to the 30-year-old Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which requires the government to obtain a warrant from a special court to conduct foreign intelligence surveillance in the United States.

The original FISA law, these experts say, provides the necessary tools for the intelligence community to eavesdrop on suspected terrorists.

Timothy Lee, an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute, said the last time Congress overhauled FISA — after the September 11 terrorist attacks — President Bush praised the action, saying the new law "recognizes the realities and dangers posed by the modern terrorist."

"Those are the rules we'll be living under after the Protect America Act expires this weekend," Mr. Lee added. "There's no reason to think our nation will be in any more danger in 2008 than it was in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, or 2006."

Ben Wittes of the Brookings Institution said because existing warrantless surveillance begun under the temporary laws could continue for up to a year, the "sky is not falling at all."....

Mr. Wittes also said he was "somewhat bewildered by the apocalyptic rhetoric" of the White House.

Another big dispute in updating the FISA is a Republican demand to give telecommunications companies legal immunity for their participation in a domestic spying program the president began shortly after the September 11 terrorist attacks. The secret program circumvented the FISA court.

About 40 lawsuits have been filed accusing AT&T, Verizon and Sprint Nextel Corp. of violating privacy rights while participating in the program.

Republicans and Mr. Bush, who supports a Senate bill passed Tuesday that includes the immunity provision, say phone companies should not be penalized for helping defend the nation against terrorism. Civil liberties activists and many Democrats say Mr. Bush's program was unconstitutional because warrants weren't required.

But the House on Wednesday rejected a Democratic proposal for a 21-day extension.

Republicans say any further extensions will cause telecommunications companies to hesitate in cooperating with intelligence officials, thus compromising national security.I hope that the silly conservatives will accept a conservative paper like the Washington Times on this issue.

Again, I find the conservatives attacks on sources to be silly. It is sad that these conservatives lack the knowledge to deal with the facts.

[AYFR]

FIRST I never said that what MM said was wrong or right, didn't read it, don't care, doesn't matter anymore. I am not a Bush supporter or even a fan of his.

My point was that you say that conservative sites are not reliable and I was pointing out that neither was MM.

My other point was that you were stereotyping and you still are. It take a small minded person to stereotype people. Lumping people into one catergory or another is a fascist way of looking at things. But you go ahead and live your life with a limited perspective of things.
I know that not all Liberals are alike and neither are conservatives. You on the other hand seem unable to grasp the reality that there is a big mix of people on both sides of the isle. You keep lumping people together and labeling them if that makes you feel more like a "man" (word used loosely). But as I recall that is exactly what Hitler did.

[AYFR]

Now I just know that YDT wants to apologize to Cassandra, MW, Izdaari, and OceanBlue for calling them stupid, silly, ignorant, and unable to understand facts. I mean they are conservatives.

[Yellowdogtexan]

If they show that they can deal with facts and make intelligent arguments based on facts or logic, I will be glad to apologize. However to date, the conservatives have been jokes when it comes to dealing with facts and the Reverend is no exception as shown by this thread.

Lets look at the facts here. True Blue posted a nice but dated article that discussed the GOP claims about FISA and some issues. I know from past expierence that facts are meaningless to the conservatives (including the Reverend) as evidenced by the prior posts and based on such opinion I made the comment that the Reverend was silly enough to object to. The Reverend responded to the facts presented by ignoring the facts and engaging the tried but sillly practice of attacking the source. The Reverend is biased against any source that presents the truth such as Media Matters and the Reverend's cliam that media matters is biased is silly and non-responsive to the issues raised. Again, there has been no attempt to even discuss the facts and arguments made about FISA just as I predicted.

Since media matters was too liberal for the silly conservatives, I provide a more recent article from the Washington Times (which is a very conservative paper) that confirmed the expiration of the PPA did not endanger anyone and that the current procedures under FISA was more than adequate (which is the substance of the Media Matters article posted by True Blue). Again, just as I predicted there has been no attempt to deal with facts here.

If the conservatives want to prove me wrong about my assessement concerning their ability to understand and use facts, then they need to actually deal with facts and engage in some real debate. I would love for the conservatives to actually try to deal with facts and logic and deal with a subject but I have learned not to hold my breath here. If the conservatives want to prove me wrong, I will be happy to play. Until, I have nothing to apologize for.

[AYFR]

See how YDT thinks he is better then everyone else.

I was not arguing about the FISA situation. I also believe that Bush abused his authority. That was not my point at all.

I know the facts of the FISA situation and haave not commented on them becuase I know that most are true.

The FACT that Hillary Clinton stated that she helped start MM put that organization in suspect. Not to mention that they spend 90% of their time attacking Republicans and Conservatives. THAT IS BIASED by whatever definition you use.

Use whatever source you want I really do not care, my point is that YDT constantly attack people sources and then gets defensive when his are attacked.

It is his small-minded belief that only the sources he deems worthy should be used. Well his since his jusgement is often flawed that puts his ideas in question.

The FACT that he labels and stereotypes people shows his elitism and narrowmindedness. He has ego issues as do all elitists. His unwillingness to apologize (he has never once apologized) for anything he has ever said here is proof that he thinks he is above the rest of us.

Suprise to him there are several people here (liberals included) that agree that he is a pompus arrogant person.


BTW YDT your idea of a "real world" is narrow and weak at best.

So next time you attack the source just remember that it is only silly, ignorant people that do that. So we son't see you attacking Free Republic, Fox News, and other such sites again now will we.

[AYFR]

Also as for dealing in so called facts, YDT's arguement about that is weak seeing as he stereotypes people and stereotypes are never factual.

[cassandra]

Wow I only read a couple of pages of this thread but it is full of some terrible thoughts on other humans. :kickcan

[AYFR]

Now I am sorry to everyone here for taking this thread off topic.

[Yellowdogtexan]

FIRST I never said that what MM said was wrong or right, didn't read it, don't care, doesn't matter anymore. I was not arguing about the FISA situation. I also believe that Bush abused his authority. That was not my point at all.

I know the facts of the FISA situation and haave not commented on them becuase I know that most are true.The reverend accuses me of sterotyping conservatives because they do not want to deal with facts and yets admits that the facts cited were either correct or that he did not care enough to read the materials to see if the facts are correct. The reverend is living proof of the sterotype that he objects to.

Again, if the conservatives disagree with my assessment about their knowlege or concern about the facts, then prove me wrong. Cite facts and make some intelligent arguments. I will be glad to play but to date I have not seen any of the conservatives (and this includes the Reverend) who were able to make any decent arguments using facts.

This thread is a classic example of why I have no faith that the conservatives either understand the facts or care about the facts. It is clear that the PAA expiration is not putting the US population in danger but the bushies have to rely on the fear card and silly claims and predicting doom and gloom for the US in order to win retroactive immunity for the telecoms.

The reverend has admitted that the facts cited by Media Matters were correct and yet he will not pay attention to such facts because he does not like the source. Again, the Reverend proves my case for me.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Back to the topic which the fact that the Democrats are standing up to bush and not giving into the fear mongering. I find this to be amusing. http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/dems_preempt_bush_recess_moves.phpIt's gotten to be a common occurrence. When Congress has a scheduled recess, the Democratic leadership keeps the Senate (and sometimes the House) in pro forma session in order to prevent any administration recess tomfoolery.

The main concern, of course, has been that the president would push through controversial recess appointments. But this time around, the Politico reports, a main concern is that the administration would try a coup de théâtre -- i.e. use the president's power to force the House into special session as a way of putting further pressure on the House Dem leadership to pass the Senate's surveillance bill and win that coveted retroactive immunity for the telecoms:Pelosi, fearing that Bush would try to capitalize on the House’s absence to call Congress back into a special session, scheduled two pro forma sessions on Tuesday and Thursday. The Senate will do the same at the same time. Since neither chamber goes out for more than three days, Bush cannot take the dramatic step of calling the Congress back for the first special session since Harry Truman did it in 1948.Not to worry, though, as you can be sure that the administration will find somehow, some way to issue periodical warnings about our imperiled nation this week. They seem to have taken a break on President's Day, but we'll let you know when they're back at it.

Meanwhile, the leadership of the House and Senate judiciary and intelligence committees are negotiating a compromise bill. No word yet on how things are going.
The Senate has been using proforma sessions to keep bush from making recess appointments and now the House is getting into the act.

[Yellowdogtexan]

This is amusing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8q2f9Acjl8

[Ringo]

We've done all we can to help the SD cowboy.
NPR ~ YES
Rush ~ NO

I know I felt much safer knowing that the telephone companies, who lied to me twice last year about their promos, were safe from prosecution because they allowed my government to see how much I participate in the Democratic party, among other such devious behaviors. :twitch

Devious behavior? Matt? Phone calls with Dems? Clinton? 900 Calls?? What do the Dems do with their Phones???:mw:mw:mw

[Ringo]

There are many New Yorkers who agree with YDT, Ringo. There are 9/11 families who would find your rhetoric very offensive, but they might let you keep your current asshole. Lucky for you!

I'm interested in your negative comments towards YDT's faith, similarly, I have often wondered what is Christian about your world view and behavior.

Like the the New Yorkers for which you claim to speak, there are varying views among Jews about Israel.

You Ms Dog these days TB, or do you speak for the retarted brain washed Liberal base??:mw:mw:nerd:mw:mw

[April15]

Wow I only read a couple of pages of this thread but it is full of some terrible thoughts on other humans. :kickcanYou ain't shitten!

[Trueblue]

Simply having a liberal point of view does not negate the facts that Media Matters presented.

[AYFR]

The reverend accuses me of sterotyping conservatives because they do not want to deal with facts and yets admits that the facts cited were either correct or that he did not care enough to read the materials to see if the facts are correct. The reverend is living proof of the sterotype that he objects to.

Again, if the conservatives disagree with my assessment about their knowlege or concern about the facts, then prove me wrong. Cite facts and make some intelligent arguments. I will be glad to play but to date I have not seen any of the conservatives (and this includes the Reverend) who were able to make any decent arguments using facts.

This thread is a classic example of why I have no faith that the conservatives either understand the facts or care about the facts. It is clear that the PAA expiration is not putting the US population in danger but the bushies have to rely on the fear card and silly claims and predicting doom and gloom for the US in order to win retroactive immunity for the telecoms.

The reverend has admitted that the facts cited by Media Matters were correct and yet he will not pay attention to such facts because he does not like the source. Again, the Reverend proves my case for me.

Again (as I previously stated) I did not read it, just like YDT does not read stuff posted by Free Republic. ALSO As I have already stated I believe that Bush abused the FISA and overstepped his authority on this issue. But instead of reading ALL of what I posted, YDT picks and chooses what he wants to just to make a claim that is not true.

It is funny that you accuse me of ignoring the fact when I have stated that I know the facts regarding FISA are true.

ALSO note that I did not say that MM was wrong and they did not present the facts; I simply said they were biased ans have a Liberal agenda.
So again you are wrong YDT

Not to mention that if you disagree with a person their "facts" become wrong. The only "facts" you listen to are those that you agree with. And that only time that you think people are intelligent are when they agree with you. Sorry bro that is not how the real world works. Maybe in your elitist fantasy world but in reality it is different.

As for the last you again either are a liar, don't know how to read, or purposly misrepresent what people say, because I have stated that I know the facts about FISA and I agree that Bush overstepped his authority.
Infact here is the quote in which I stated it.


I was not arguing about the FISA situation. I also believe that Bush abused his authority. That was not my point at all.

I know the facts of the FISA situation and haave not commented on them becuase I know that most are true.


So try again and this time try and to be at least honest about it. I know that being honest is hard for you but do try.

[AYFR]

Simply having a liberal point of view does not negate the facts that Media Matters presented.
Never once did I say that, not one time. I said they were biased and agenda based.
Just like with the Heritage Foundation theyare aslo biased and agenda based BUT they too report facts, so long as (like with MM) those facts make their side look good or the other side look bad.

My whole point here is that YDT constantly attacks people sources and stereotypes people. TB do you think all conservatives are silly, ignorant, and cannot see facts?

How about the other Liberals here?

My bet is that it is just a few elitist like YDT that believe that way.

Stereotyping makes one a bigot.

[Trueblue]

Never once did I say that, not one time. I said they were biased and agenda based.
Just like with the Heritage Foundation theyare aslo biased and agenda based BUT they too report facts, so long as (like with MM) those facts make their side look good or the other side look bad.

My whole point here is that YDT constantly attacks people sources and stereotypes people. TB do you think all conservatives are silly, ignorant, and cannot see facts?

How about the other Liberals here?

My bet is that it is just a few elitist like YDT that believe that way.

Stereotyping makes one a bigot.

No, MM is not "just like the Heritage Foundation". That is simply not so.

[AYFR]

Really, what is the difference TB?

[Trueblue]

Really, what is the difference TB?

One allows bias to overrule facts. Guess which one.

I know that it seems more fair to say that they are both equally biased, but that is a childish concept of fairness, IMO.

[AYFR]

One allows bias to overrule facts. Guess which one.

I know that it seems more fair to say that they are both equally biased, but that is a childish concept of fairness, IMO.

None that I have read do that.

[Oceanbreeze]

It hasn't done anything to any law abiding citizen...you guys with "the sky is falling" rhetoric are pretty funny!

Well see what all the chest beating will get them in the long run....Hey...whatever happened to Tom DeLay, has that been thrown out yet?
What did they do about Rummy? Any charges brought against him yet?

You guys are pathetic....the House flexes what little muscle it has and you guys go apeshit! I remember when the Demos were running roughshod of Pubs for 40 years....you all were happy about that huh?
I think this is all much ado about nothing...just like most everything else Demos do!



:paclap :paclap :paclap :paclap :lmao

[Oceanbreeze]

One allows bias to overrule facts. Guess which one.

I know that it seems more fair to say that they are both equally biased, but that is a childish concept of fairness, IMO.

:lmao you're not biased? :lmao I am not an American citizen.. :lmao

[Trueblue]

:lmao you're not biased? :lmao I am not an American citizen.. :lmao

We're all biased, it's human nature.

There are certainly conservatives who can talk about facts without distorting them, but the Heritage Foundation isn't in that category.

[AYFR]

We're all biased, it's human nature.

There are certainly conservatives who can talk about facts without distorting them, but the Heritage Foundation isn't in that category.
Prove it.

[Trueblue]

Prove it.

Why don't you prove that both are equally biased. :shrug

I just don't have time to prove this right now, sorry.

[Yellowdogtexan]

The GOP has played the TERRA card and are telling everyone that the US is in danger due to the laspe of the PAA. However, the GOP is refusing to work on a compromise or extension of the PPA and the GOP skipped some key meetings today. http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/21/16501/6800/297/461431That's their argument, right? Every day without telco amnesty is one day closer to the total annihilation of everything, or something. When they aren't fear-mongering, they are bleating about the wonderful "bipartisan" effort in the Senate to give Bush all the license he ever wanted to break the law. Well, here's what they really think about bipartisanship.

Not only did Bush leave for Africa a day after threatening he would have to cancel the trip if Congress didn't bow to his temper tantrum, the Republicans in the House all left town after they had vowed to stay in Washington during the recess to work on the bill.

Today, just to prove how critical it is to our national security that this bill be passed, the Republicans refused to allow their staff to participate in a staff-level bipartisan working meeting on FISA.

Hoyer's statement:"I am disappointed that House and Senate Republicans apparently instructed their staffs not to participate in today’s bicameral meeting on modernizing the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The decision to not participate, coupled with their vote against an extension of their bill - the Protect America Act - only serves to reinforce the perception that Republicans prefer to have a political issue rather than a strong new FISA bill in place as quickly as possible. Certainly Republicans do not really believe that the role of the House is to simply rubberstamp whatever bills the Senate passes.

"I am hopeful that Republicans will reconsider and join us in crafting a bipartisan FISA bill that protects our nation and our civil liberties. It is time to come together and work in the best interests of our nation’s security." The conference Chairs (Conyers, Reyes, Leahy, Rockefeller) statement:"In what should have been a bipartisan, bicameral meeting, staff members of the House and Senate Judiciary and Intelligence Committees met today to work in good faith to reach a compromise on FISA reform. As we have said, we are using this week to work on a compromise that strengthens our national security and protects Americans’ privacy. Unfortunately, we understand our Republican counterparts instructed their staffs not to attend this working meeting, therefore not allowing progress to be made in a bipartisan, bicameral way. While we are disappointed that today’s meeting could not reflect a bipartisan effort, we will continue to work and hope Republicans will join us to put our nation’s security first." If they don't want progress on this bill, don't give it to them. Now that House Dems have proven that the Protect America Act could expire without the sky caving in, there's absolutely no rush to pass another bad bill. There are plenty of other productive things Congress could be doing with its time.

If that's the game they want to play, let them. By their actions, they have taken total ownership and complete responsibility for any risk to our national security.If you buy the GOP crap, it is the GOP who is putting the country at risk in order to make sure that the telecoms get their immunity

[jim]

The GOP has played the TERRA card and are telling everyone that the US is in danger due to the laspe of the PAA. However, the GOP is refusing to work on a compromise or extension of the PPA and the GOP skipped some key meetings today. http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/21/16501/6800/297/461431If you buy the GOP crap, it is the GOP who is putting the country at risk in order to make sure that the telecoms get their immunity

Absolutely correct!!!:devil

[Yellowdogtexan]

The bushies are playing the Terra card today. Here is Senate Majority leader Reid's response to this tactic. http://democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=293480&Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid made the following statement today in response to President Bush’s letter on FISA:

“The President sadly continues to choose confrontation over negotiation, threatening to veto any extension of the Protect America Act while crying wolf about the dangers of letting it expire. These latest scare tactics represent the President at his most unreasonable, irresponsible and misleading.

“No amount of fear mongering will change the fact that our intelligence-collection capabilities have not been weakened since last week. Even the President’s own Director of National Intelligence agrees.

“But for the President, this debate isn’t about protecting America; it’s about protecting the telecommunications industry and his own Administration. He has explicitly refused to compromise on immunity for telecommunications companies even as he claimed the law’s expiration endangers Americans. I can only conclude, then, that the President would put Americans’ lives on the line to let phone companies off the hook. Democrats have different priorities.

“Congressional Democrats will continue to work on a bipartisan basis to finalize a strong law. As we do, there should be no question in anyone’s mind that U.S. intelligence agencies have the legal ability to take all actions necessary to protect the security of the American people. For anyone to suggest otherwise is wholly inaccurate.”I am glad that the Democratic House leaders stood up to the bushies and refuse to give into the Terra card.

[issac the dragon]

I agree. This country is going to fall if the Democrats don't stand up and refuse to go along with this crap.

[issac the dragon]

By the way. I respect most conservatives. Not the right wing nuts, but I don't respect left wing nuts either. Most of the conservatives on this board are resonable people. But like the real world, its the ones who aren't who are doing all the hollering.

[jim]

I agree. This country is going to fall if the Democrats don't stand up and refuse to go along with this crap.

It is:brr

[Matt]

United, we stand!
I believe this and I believe that the country as a whole knows what we must do ~ Vote!
An informed electorate is what made this stand by the Congress possible.

[jim]

United, we stand!
I believe this and I believe that the country as a whole knows what we must do ~ Vote!
An informed electorate is what made this stand by the Congress possible.

It is great that we are finally acquiring a more informed electorate and at least some who are more informed about politics in general...Seems everyone was so dumb about the political situation for a long time that they would as well have believed in santa Claus:santa:twocents:worship

[Ringo]

It is great that we are finally acquiring a more informed electorate and at least some who are more informed about politics in general...Seems everyone was so dumb about the political situation for a long time that they would as well have believed in santa Claus:santa:twocents:worship

Still do Jim, IF you believe the crop of BIG Govt Leftist Progressives are going to change anything for the better! Look at Clinton, the mess he made, how weak he allowed America to be, as he handed China and the Al Qadea the KEYS to the Kingdom:mw:mw:mw

[jim]

Still do Jim, IF you believe the crop of BIG Govt Leftist Progressives are going to change anything for the better! Look at Clinton, the mess he made, how weak he allowed America to be, as he handed China and the Al Qadea the KEYS to the Kingdom:mw:mw:mw

That's a matter for debate(to put it mildly). We have to learn as we go: At least Clinton didn't wreck the economy, throw away the constitution and sell the country down the River: "W" did and we have learned:rooster:mw:godzilla

[Matt]

There will never be a fully informed electorate, jim. :wink
Santa has been visiting the few for several years now and many in office have made some major blood money ~ whether planned or not.

We are blaming the Dems in Congress for their vote for the war even tho they were given doctored information.
Couldn't we also put some of the blame that Ringo is attempting to dish out on 12 years of Republican domination of Congress?

Some mistakes are made by every elected official but voters made a major mistake in electing Bush.

[jim]

There will never be a fully informed electorate, jim. :wink
Santa has been visiting the few for several years now and many in office have made some major blood money ~ whether planned or not.

We are blaming the Dems in Congress for their vote for the war even tho they were given doctored information.
Couldn't we also put some of the blame that Ringo is attempting to dish out on 12 years of Republican domination of Congress?

Some mistakes are made by every elected official but voters made a major mistake in electing Bush.

Agreed on all of this post: It ain't and ain't gonna be Perfect - or close to same...:coffee:):shrug

[Ringo]

That's a matter for debate(to put it mildly). We have to learn as we go: At least Clinton didn't wreck the economy, throw away the constitution and sell the country down the River: "W" did and we have learned:rooster:mw:godzilla

Clinton DIDN'T sell out America???

Jim when you see a 100 megaton Nuke Missile screaming towards Nashville with CHI COM markings on it, get back to me!!!:godzilla

[Yellowdogtexan]

Clinton DIDN'T sell out America???

Jim when you see a 100 megaton Nuke Missile screaming towards Nashville with CHI COM markings on it, get back to me!!!ringo, once again I point out that the republican controlled house oversight committee spent millions investigating this stupid claim and found nothing. Every time you bring this claim up, you look silly

[Yellowdogtexan]

Back to the topic. The republicans are still playing the fear card and warning us about TERRA Here is Rep. Conyers' response to this silliness by the republicans. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aVkBM_izWI6QThe lapse of a law that allows American spy agencies to intercept the U.S. phone calls and e- mails of suspected foreign terrorists doesn't hinder intelligence gathering or endanger national security, Representative John Conyers, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, said.

Conyers, a Michigan Democrat, said President George W. Bush and Republicans in Congress defeated the extension of a temporary surveillance law because they wanted the House of Representatives to approve a Senate bill that would shield phone companies from lawsuits accusing them of invading customers' privacy after they helped the government eavesdrop on calls.

``The expiration of the temporary August legislation does not endanger our national security,'' Conyers said in the weekly Democratic radio address. ``Well-established emergency provisions of the current surveillance laws are more than adequate to address any emergent threats.''

Conyers' statements are an effort to counter assertions by Attorney General Michael Mukasey and National Intelligence Director J. Michael McConnell yesterday that the U.S. has lost intelligence about terrorists and some telephone companies have ``reduced cooperation'' with intercepting phone calls and e- mails since the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act expired Feb. 16. The claims were made in a letter to the House Intelligence Committee.

Conyers said if the administration were concerned about national security it would have allowed for the temporary extension of the earlier law while Congress worked out the differences between the House and Senate proposals.

``The President and House Republicans simply can't have it both ways,'' Conyers said. ``They cannot argue simultaneously that the temporary August law was essential to national security, and then turn around and engineer the defeat of an extension of it.''

[Yellowdogtexan]

This is amusing. Over the weekend, the bushies played a variation of the TERRA card by claiming that we were losing intelligence due to the expiration of the PPA. The silly bushies had to back down from this silly claim http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-intel24feb24,1,5327112.story?ctrack=1&cset=true A day after warning that potentially critical terrorism intelligence was being lost because Congress had not finished work on a controversial espionage law, the U.S. attorney general and the national intelligence director said Saturday that the government was receiving the information -- at least temporarily.

On Friday evening, Atty. Gen. Michael B. Mukasey and Director of National Intelligence J. Michael McConnell had said in an unusually blunt letter to Congress that the nation "is now more vulnerable to terrorist attack and other foreign threats" because lawmakers had not yet acted on the administration's proposal for the wiretapping law.

But within hours of sending that letter, administration officials told lawmakers on the House and Senate intelligence committees that they had prevailed upon all of the telecommunications companies to continue cooperating with the government's requests for information while negotiations with Congress continue.

A statement describing the change was released Saturday.

The episode appeared to be another round in the battle between the White House and congressional Democrats over provisions of the proposed new Protect America Act, which would replace one that has expired.

The bill would expand the government's eavesdropping authorities and protect telecommunications companies such as AT&T Inc. from lawsuits over their cooperation with the intelligence community.

"We learned last night after sending [the original] letter that . . . new surveillances under existing directives issued pursuant to the Protect America Act will resume, at least for now," Mukasey and McConnell said in the statement released Saturday.

"We appreciate the willingness of our private partners to cooperate despite the uncertainty.

"Unfortunately, the delay resulting from this discussion impaired our ability to cover foreign intelligence targets, which resulted in missed intelligence information," Mukasey and McConnell added.

Government officials declined to comment on how much intelligence data may have been lost or how serious it might have been.

One Democratic congressional official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter, expressed skepticism that any significant gap had existed, noting that existing rules permit continued monitoring of known terrorists and their associates......

"This is serious backpedaling by the DNI," the Democratic official said of McConnell. "He's been saying for the last week that the sky is falling, and the sky is not falling."It is amusing to see the sky was falling and then two hours later the sky was not falling

[Ringo]

ringo, once again I point out that the republican controlled house oversight committee spent millions investigating this stupid claim and found nothing. Every time you bring this claim up, you look silly

Oh Fuck Politicians investigating Politicians, the Traitor Liberal Commie Prick needs the Firing Squad as does buddy Al Bore!!:devil:devil

http://www.newsmax.com/smith/china_eyes_GPS/2007/11/20/50867.html

[Yellowdogtexan]

Ringo, it was a repug politician investigating the Clintons on this exact same stupid and silly charge that you keep bringing up. Dan Burton wasted $7.4 million and found nothing because there was nothing to find. Like you Burton is a fanactic hater of President Clinton and left no stone unturned in his pursuit of this stupid and silly charge. The repugs under burton found nothing because there was nothing to find.

[jim]

Ringo, it was a repug politician investigating the Clintons on this exact same stupid and silly charge that you keep bringing up. Dan Burton wasted $7.4 million and found nothing because there was nothing to find. Like you Burton is a fanactic hater of President Clinton and left no stone unturned in his pursuit of this stupid and silly charge. The repugs under burton found nothing because there was nothing to find.

True - I followed the whole damn thing:godzilla