Public schools are hotbeds of democracy

[Trueblue]

Democracies don't materialize out of thin air. They are created -- and maintained and deepened -- by citizens. If citizens are to safeguard civil liberties, elect wise officials, become wise officials themselves, make sense of the news and negotiate public policy with other citizens in an ever more diverse society, "their minds," as Thomas Jefferson said, "need to be improved to a certain degree."

Public schools are ideal sites for this work. They are public places, so they possess the essential assets for cultivating democratic citizens: a diverse student body, shared problems and a curriculum.

Boys and girls are both there. Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists and atheists are there. African Americans, European Americans, Latin Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans and more are together in the same space. This buzzing variety does not exist at home, nor at church, temple, or mosque. But it does exist in public places where different groups of people are thrown together -- places where individuals who come from numerous private worlds congregate.

But to seize the opportunity schools afford, school leaders need to stir the pot. Three actions are key.

First, increase the variety and frequency of interaction among students who are culturally, linguistically and racially different from one another. If the school itself is homogenous, or if the school is diverse but curriculum tracks keep students apart, this first key is all the more difficult to turn.

Second, orchestrate those contacts so that not only interaction but also decision making about common problems -- deliberation -- is fostered. This is the basic labor of democracy. In deliberation, alternatives are weighed in discussion with others and a decision is made. Diversity aids deliberation directly in several ways: It brings different problems to the table, it expands the number of understandings of a problem and it widens the range of alternatives that are considered.

In schools, this meeting of minds needs to be about two kinds of problems -- social and academic. Social problems include disrespect and bullying, stealing, dress codes and school policies of all sorts. These are best deliberated in homeroom meetings and in a thoughtful system of student councils that reach all students. Academic problems (Why have so many democracies failed? How do organisms learn?) are at the core of each subject area. They are best deliberated in the classrooms where those subjects are taught.

Third, clarify the distinction between discussion and blather and between open and closed discussion. In other words, expect, teach and model competent, inclusive deliberation. Marginalized voices are encouraged to speak, listening is generous, students have studied the alternatives they are weighing, claims are supported with evidence and reasoning, and a rich inventory of historical, scientific and literary knowledge is brought to bear.

When aimed at democratic ends and supported by democratic means, schools can help children enter the public consciousness needed for citizenship, or what the ancient Greeks called puberty. This includes the habits of reasoning and caring necessary for public life: the cosmopolitan respect, the insistence on fair play, and the knack for forging public policy with others whether one likes them or not. The opposite is what the Greeks called idiocy -- absorption in one's private affairs.

Public schools are good places to help young people grow from idiocy to puberty. Schools can't do it alone, to be sure; families and faith communities must do their part. But schools have the key ingredients that make them the most fertile sites in society for this work. Aren't the stakes too high to let the opportunity pass?
Walter Parker is a professor of education at the University of Washington and the author of "Teaching Democracy: Unity and Diversity in Public Life."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/262189_democracy09.html

[Trueblue]

A private only system will result in people who don't spend enough time interacting with others who are different from themselves. People will seek out whatever suits their own POV, and we will become like the Balkans, with everybody disliking everybody else. The rise of private Christian schools here in the south was a direct outgrowth of school integration. People were horrified at the idea that their kids might go to school with a black kid. Does anybody grasp how bad that is for a democracy?

[AYFR]

TB we have grwon past that. You do not give the American people enough credit.

BESIDES private schools are still required by law to teach certain curriculum.

Also people will and do seek out places that suit their POV, that is why there are rich neighborhoods, poor neighborhoods, white neighborhoods, black neighborhoods, hispanic neighborhoods, and so on.

[Cookie Parker]

TB we have grwon past that. You do not give the American people enough credit.

BESIDES private schools are still required by law to teach certain curriculum.

Also people will and do seek out places that suit their POV, that is why there are rich neighborhoods, poor neighborhoods, white neighborhoods, black neighborhoods, hispanic neighborhoods, and so on.


More's to pity if you buy into that. You want to teach your religion? Fine. But do it without my taxes.

[AYFR]

I never said anything about teaching religion.

Don't even know where you post came from as it has nothing to do with reality.

[AYFR]

More's to pity if you buy into that. You want to teach your religion? Fine. But do it without my taxes.

Also you want to teach evolution, then fine do it without my taxes.

[Cookie Parker]

I never said anything about teaching religion.

Don't even know where you post came from as it has nothing to do with reality.

Sure you implied it....there are things you can teach in a private school you can't in a public schools means what?

[Cookie Parker]

Also you want to teach evolution, then fine do it without my taxes.

Why? It's scientific. It's allows for critical thinking and reasoning and has support of scientific studies...

That's your religion coming through....teach your kids there's a big mystery "father" in the sky in sunday school...leave your voodoo, however, out of secular education that teaches critical reasoning and thinking.

[AYFR]

Sure you implied it....there are things you can teach in a private school you can't in a public schools means what?
I did not imply it and I did not ever say anything like you just posted. I said that Private Schools are required to teach the same things that public schools are.

I love how you lie to try and make your point.

Not only are you a hypocrite you are a liar as well.
Why? It's scientific. It's allows for critical thinking and reasoning and has support of scientific studies...

That's your religion coming through....teach your kids there's a big mystery "father" in the sky in sunday school...leave your voodoo, however, out of secular education that teaches critical reasoning and thinking.
Evolution has not been proven.

As is athiesim (regonizied by the SCOTUS)


But besides that I don't want religion taught in schools, never have. So your basis is plain wrong.
I think that religion should be taught by people that believe it not by teachers paid by the state that have at times distorted it.

You will not find ONE spot in this whole forum where I stated that religion should be required as a class.

[cassandra]

Sure you implied it....there are things you can teach in a private school you can't in a public schools means what?

Of course there are. I am not sure why it is about religion to you. All charter schools have an agenda. Many use computers and less pen and paper claiming to be more technological. Everybody has an agenda. I assume yours is to keep religion out of any education even if it is private and the parents want it.


But besides that I don't want religion taught in schools, never have. So your basis is plain wrong.
I think that religion should be taught by people that believe it not by teachers paid by the state that have at times distorted it.


I love the Lord with all my heart but would not want to send my children to a religious school. I prefer to teach religion in my home and I know many others feel the same.

[Oceanbreeze]

:woot our kids are going back into private school when we move to NC. :woot OUR money paying for our kids education and NOT taxpayers money. :woot Am I excited? HELL YEAH! :woot

[Wabash]

A private only system will result in people who don't spend enough time interacting with others who are different from themselves. People will seek out whatever suits their own POV, and we will become like the Balkans, with everybody disliking everybody else. The rise of private Christian schools here in the south was a direct outgrowth of school integration. People were horrified at the idea that their kids might go to school with a black kid. Does anybody grasp how bad that is for a democracy?
Nope! That's bullshit! I wouldn't want my kids going to a school with a large contingent of minoritiy trouble makers!

Why? It's scientific. It's allows for critical thinking and reasoning and has support of scientific studies...

That's your religion coming through....teach your kids there's a big mystery "father" in the sky in sunday school...leave your voodoo, however, out of secular education that teaches critical reasoning and thinking.
Well the Big Bang Theory is about as low as science can go...Dumb and dumber!

:woot our kids are going back into private school when we move to NC. :woot OUR money paying for our kids education and NOT taxpayers money. :woot Am I excited? HELL YEAH! :woot
You bet...Want a good education, go to a Private School.
Cookie worries about religion, I worry about my kids being exposed to PC and Liberalism! Nothing....is worse than that!

[Oceanbreeze]

Cookie worries about religion, I worry about my kids being exposed to PC and Liberalism! Nothing....is worse than that!

:woot Exactly! We're raising our kids not to be PC! Welcome back daily prayer in the school! :woot

[Matt]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/262189_democracy09.html

This is a very interesting article.
If you recall, after Columbine student councils were the ones who came up with the most innovative and workable ideas.
I was in high school just after WWII. The schools were segregated as far as blacks were concerned but there were people from numerous backgrounds in our schools in Texas.
We had mock elections in election years and there was a lot of interest in civics for a time.

By my senior year, the talk was of integration and we were taught how equal but separate worked. The equal part was a joke.
Because we did not go to school with blacks, our close contact in other areas had not prepared us for the differences ~ partly created by isolation.


The ideas presented in this article have nothing to do with the teaching of religion in any form.
IMO, the article is about preparing students for participation and leadership as they enter the real world.

[Ringo]

I never said anything about teaching religion.

Don't even know where you post came from as it has nothing to do with reality.

Rev its Cookie...that is reality in her world!!:aliens:mw

TB thinks the only reason CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS started were so that Klan Members and Far Right Wacko's had a place to send their kids without Blacks being there??

Couldn't have been because Christians were wanting to escape the Church Of England mentality of Liberals, and wished to have the Lord present in their Education!!!

[Ringo]

A private only system will result in people who don't spend enough time interacting with others who are different from themselves. People will seek out whatever suits their own POV, and we will become like the Balkans, with everybody disliking everybody else. The rise of private Christian schools here in the south was a direct outgrowth of school integration. People were horrified at the idea that their kids might go to school with a black kid. Does anybody grasp how bad that is for a democracy?


Hmmm? The Clintons & Gores sent their Kids to PRIVATE schools, and I suspect Reid-Pelosi-Durbin-Shumer-Kennedy and others all used Private Schools? Did Byrd go to school with Blacks or where did he get the idea to hang em TB??

[Oceanbreeze]

Hmmm? The Clintons & Gores sent their Kids to PRIVATE schools, and I suspect Reid-Pelosi-Durbin-Shumer-Kennedy and others all used Private Schools? Did Byrd go to school with Blacks or where did he get the idea to hang em TB??

Bingo!!!!!!

[cassandra]

Imagine a moment where all schools were private. :)

[Oceanbreeze]

Imagine a moment where all schools were private. :)

Yes. I can only imagine if all people had to pay for their own child's education and actually cared and were involved with their child's education. :sad

[issac the dragon]

Imagine all those private schools that opened up in the south. Imagine they were opened for any reason but that Jim Crow in the schools had ended. Try to imagine that.

Imagine that the religious movement, the Dominions have not been putting the idea out there for twenty years that public schools have to be closed and the majority of the kids who get educated will be in the hands of the far right wing nuts. And imagine how that idea has trickled down to all evangelical churches until it has become a must do. Imagine it.

Imagine if people knew when they are being brainwashed by nut cases. Imagine.

[cassandra]

Issac that certainly is fatalistic, and that is fine. I believe that many private schools would spring up, even in the South, that would be so wonderful.

[Oceanbreeze]

Imagine all those private schools that opened up in the south. Imagine they were opened for any reason but that Jim Crow in the schools had ended. Try to imagine that.

Imagine that the religious movement, the Dominions have not been putting the idea out there for twenty years that public schools have to be closed and the majority of the kids who get educated will be in the hands of the far right wing nuts. And imagine how that idea has trickled down to all evangelical churches until it has become a must do. Imagine it.

Imagine if people knew when they are being brainwashed by nut cases. Imagine.

Hmmm. I can't imagine why they have private schools in the UK, Australia, India, Germany, ect...????

There are many different types of private school besides religious one. Please remember that not all public school districts are created equal.

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/studies/2006459.asp

[Wabash]

This is a very interesting article.
If you recall, after Columbine student councils were the ones who came up with the most innovative and workable ideas.
I was in high school just after WWII. The schools were segregated as far as blacks were concerned but there were people from numerous backgrounds in our schools in Texas.
We had mock elections in election years and there was a lot of interest in civics for a time.

By my senior year, the talk was of integration and we were taught how equal but separate worked. The equal part was a joke.
Because we did not go to school with blacks, our close contact in other areas had not prepared us for the differences ~ partly created by isolation.


The ideas presented in this article have nothing to do with the teaching of religion in any form.
IMO, the article is about preparing students for participation and leadership as they enter the real world.
The first question I have Matt is this: Were the roads paved when you went to school?
If the highlighted section is what is desired...IMO, the private school is far better equipped to teach it...


Imagine a moment where all schools were private. :)
Yep! Funny how TB quoted Jefferson....he was a very learned man and...Self Taught!

Yes. I can only imagine if all people had to pay for their own child's education and actually cared and were involved with their child's education. :sad
Yep...it's much easier to dump them on teachers that have to conform to Federal guidelines and can't talk about certain things. In schools where the history books are now sanitized for PC. and the kids learn virtually nothing of real life....only liberalism and related crap!

Imagine all those private schools that opened up in the south. Imagine they were opened for any reason but that Jim Crow in the schools had ended. Try to imagine that.

Imagine that the religious movement, the Dominions have not been putting the idea out there for twenty years that public schools have to be closed and the majority of the kids who get educated will be in the hands of the far right wing nuts. And imagine how that idea has trickled down to all evangelical churches until it has become a must do. Imagine it.

Imagine if people knew when they are being brainwashed by nut cases. Imagine.
Ya...imagine, that the Kennedys, Kerrys, Pelosis, Reids, et al, would dare to send their kids to public schools! :rofl:rofl
Let me see now...public schools promote PC, how to do "around the world", Planned Parenthood knows more about you and your body than your parents do, there are certain things that your parents Don't need to know, guns are bad, hunting is bad, driving anything besides a hybrid is bad, having to fight black bullies everyday at school, is normal. Marijuana is not addictive. Don't worry, the police can protect you.

Ya those Public schools are great avenues to build moral character....:rofl:rofl:rofl

[Trueblue]

Nope! That's bullshit! I wouldn't want my kids going to a school with a large contingent of minoritiy trouble makers!

How do you know that they are trouble makers, Wabash?

This is a very interesting article.
If you recall, after Columbine student councils were the ones who came up with the most innovative and workable ideas.
I was in high school just after WWII. The schools were segregated as far as blacks were concerned but there were people from numerous backgrounds in our schools in Texas.
We had mock elections in election years and there was a lot of interest in civics for a time.

By my senior year, the talk was of integration and we were taught how equal but separate worked. The equal part was a joke.
Because we did not go to school with blacks, our close contact in other areas had not prepared us for the differences ~ partly created by isolation.

The ideas presented in this article have nothing to do with the teaching of religion in any form.
IMO, the article is about preparing students for participation and leadership as they enter the real world.

As a pluralistic society, we have to have contact with people different from ourselves.


Rev its Cookie...that is reality in her world!!:aliens:mw

TB thinks the only reason CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS started were so that Klan Members and Far Right Wacko's had a place to send their kids without Blacks being there??

Couldn't have been because Christians were wanting to escape the Church Of England mentality of Liberals, and wished to have the Lord present in their Education!!!

Ringo, you either didn't or couldn't read what I said.

Hmmm? The Clintons & Gores sent their Kids to PRIVATE schools, and I suspect Reid-Pelosi-Durbin-Shumer-Kennedy and others all used Private Schools? Did Byrd go to school with Blacks or where did he get the idea to hang em TB??

So what? Anybody can send their kids to private school who wants to pay for it. It's their right. But it's not going to be paid for with tax dollars. Understand?

The Byrd comment is so stupid. Byrd never hung anybody. Why do you love to lie?

[Trueblue]

Yes. I can only imagine if all people had to pay for their own child's education and actually cared and were involved with their child's education. :sad

Can you imagine everyone being able to pay for private school? That seems unlikely to me.

[Oceanbreeze]

Can you imagine everyone being able to pay for private school? That seems unlikely to me.

Anyone can afford anything that they set their mind to.

[Wabash]

How do you know that they are trouble makers, Wabash?

In nearly every school in Ca. they are....same in the Northwest....I would think that would be true in most areas...I know that NY/NJ/Philly and a host of other places that to be true!



As a pluralistic society, we have to have contact with people different from ourselves.

Not if we can help it! And believe me, thousands of Californians, like myself, are witness to it!





Ringo, you either didn't or couldn't read what I said.
Could be an honest mistake, you prove to be difficult at times.



So what? Anybody can send their kids to private school who wants to pay for it. It's their right. But it's not going to be paid for with tax dollars. Understand?
Your tax dollars would be better spent, sending kids to private schools...right now, the pubic education system is a money pit!

The Byrd comment is so stupid. Byrd never hung anybody. Why do you love to lie?Now, there you go again TB...you have NO idea what Byrd has done or not done in his KKK years...Unless....you've been sitting on his lap!

[cassandra]

Can you imagine everyone being able to pay for private school? That seems unlikely to me.

Well hopefully when our government goes to private schools they will not keep that portion of taxation and force people to find a way. Hopefully we will have someone who will cut those taxes and not think up another social service to spend the funds on.

[Wabash]

Well hopefully when our government goes to private schools they will not keep that portion of taxation and force people to find a way. Hopefully we will have someone who will cut those taxes and not think up another social service to spend the funds on.

That's why Democrats are BAD for this country...all they know is Tax and Spend and give it to the fuckoffs!!

[Trueblue]

Anyone can afford anything that they set their mind to.

BWWWAHHAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA.

Seriously, this is just not so.

[cassandra]

BWWWAHHAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA.

Seriously, this is just not so.

I think she is right on. All people can acheive the same. Many may have far more to overcome but they can. :)

[Trueblue]

I think she is right on. All people can acheive the same. Many may have far more to overcome but they can. :)

All people can achieve, but the idea that everyone can achieve the same is a fantasy.

[Wabash]

I think she is right on. All people can acheive the same. Many may have far more to overcome but they can. :)

I fully agree!`Unless a person has a significant medical or psychiatric problem, we are ALL capable of Greatness......we are all created in God's Image. TB has been around entitlement types too long...

[Trueblue]

I fully agree!`Unless a person has a significant medical or psychiatric problem, we are ALL capable of Greatness......we are all created in God's Image. TB has been around entitlement types too long...

Actually, the problem is that some people haven't been out among those with significant medical and psychiatric problems enough. Or significant legal or monetary problems. I've been with them enough to know that while people can almost always do better, the idea that we can all achieve the same is simply not based in reality.

Wabash knows this to be true, that's why he prefaced his comment as he did.

[cassandra]

Anyone can afford anything that they set their mind to.

All people can achieve, but the idea that everyone can achieve the same is a fantasy.

TB she said that people could afford anything they set their mind to.

Who said we all should be the same? I personally wouldn't like it if we were all the same. There is always somebody who makes more and has more than you, that is the way it is.

I am reminded of a great scene from Incredibles which perfectly showcases what is wrong with the feel good movement.

Dash: You always say 'Do your best', but you don't really mean it. Why can't I do the best that I can do?
Helen: Right now, honey, the world just wants us to fit in, and to fit in, we gotta be like everyone else.
Dash: But Dad always said our powers were nothing to be ashamed of, our powers made us special.
Helen: Everyone's special, Dash.
Dash: [muttering] Which is another way of saying no one is.

[Trueblue]

I think she is right on. All people can acheive the same. Many may have far more to overcome but they can. :)

I was referencing this comment. The is not so, all people cannot achieve the same.

TB she said that people could afford anything they set their mind to.

She's wrong.

Who said we all should be the same?

Nobody said that as far as I know.

I personally wouldn't like it if we were all the same.

Me either.

There is always somebody who makes more and has more than you, that is the way it is.

Uh, yeah, that's my point.

I am reminded of a great scene from Incredibles which perfectly showcases what is wrong with the feel good movement.

Uh, you and OB are the feel good people here, I'm the voice of reality.

[cassandra]

All people can achieve, but the idea that everyone can achieve the same is a fantasy.

TB she said that people could afford anything they set their mind to.

Who said we all should be the same? I personally wouldn't like it if we were all the same. There is always somebody who makes more and has more than you, that is the way it is.

I am reminded of a great scene from Incredibles which perfectly showcases what is wrong with the feel good movement.


I am over here laughing my buns off since I posted this. Sorry I didn't notice you were talking to me. :lmao

I will clarrify what I mean. I do believe that everyone can acheive at the same rate. Where we end up most likely will be different but we can all acheive the same amount.

[cassandra]

Uh, you and OB are the feel good people here, I'm the voice of reality.

Thankfully that has never been my reality and I pray that it never is. :)

I was very very poor when I was little. I didn't get to where I am now by luck. Hardwork and determination are things anyone can and should acheive.

[Trueblue]

I am over here laughing my buns off since I posted this. Sorry I didn't notice you were talking to me. :lmao

I will clarrify what I mean. I do believe that everyone can acheive at the same rate. Where we end up most likely will be different but we can all acheive the same amount.

Oh, okay.

Everyone can't achieve at the same rate. I wish that they could, but they can't. Most people that I see, including myself, could manage their money better, spend their time better, be nicer, be holier, but that is true of people of all levels.

But everyone just can't achieve at the same rate. In my corner or the world, we are doing a lot to make everybody improve and grow, but they do not and cannot achieve at the same rate.

[Trueblue]

Thankfully that has never been my reality and I pray that it never is. :)

You've done it again. You just keep acting like my pointing out reality-that people have different levels of ability, and that they simply don't learn at the same rate, is some sort of mean spirited comment. Or then I hear that my horrible negative comments are somehow "feel good". I can't figure out how to defend myself. :shrug

I was very very poor when I was little. I didn't get to where I am now by luck. Hardwork and determination are things anyone can and should acheive.

Cassandra, you are mixing what is true and what is fantasy in your posts. Yes, I believe that people can overcome obstacles. Yes, people should take personal responsibility. Yes, people should work hard and overcome obstacles. NO, they cannot all achieve at the same rate. If you doubt me, when you go back to teaching, try the CDC classroom. You will find great joy when the kids learn and grow, but they will not achieve at the same rate as typical kids.

[Wabash]

TB she said that people could afford anything they set their mind to.

Who said we all should be the same? I personally wouldn't like it if we were all the same. There is always somebody who makes more and has more than you, that is the way it is.

I am reminded of a great scene from Incredibles which perfectly showcases what is wrong with the feel good movement.
Great post! That speaks of Libs more than anything!

I was referencing this comment. The is not so, all people cannot achieve the same.



She's wrong.



Nobody said that as far as I know.


Me either.



Uh, yeah, that's my point.



Uh, you and OB are the feel good people here, I'm the voice of reality.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Too funny TB...!
Maybe Liberal reality, but not REAL reality!

[Trueblue]

Wabash, you would jump on any bandwagon if you can use it to critique me. :lol

Your preface to your remarks shows that you know perfectly well what I'm talking about.

[cassandra]

You've done it again. You just keep acting like my pointing out reality-that people have different levels of ability, and that they simply don't learn at the same rate, is some sort of mean spirited comment. Or then I hear that my horrible negative comments are somehow "feel good". I can't figure out how to defend myself. :shrug



Cassandra, you are mixing what is true and what is fantasy in your posts. Yes, I believe that people can overcome obstacles. Yes, people should take personal responsibility. Yes, people should work hard and overcome obstacles. NO, they cannot all achieve at the same rate. If you doubt me, when you go back to teaching, try the CDC classroom. You will find great joy when the kids learn and grow, but they will not achieve at the same rate as typical kids.

Then you should know that with a tax decrease all people could put that money to their child's education. Would they, well that is a completely different topic to my mind.


In reference to everything else those blanket statements I have made are in regards to earning more or paying for things we need. All people can do that unless they have something precluding them from that. Are you suggesting that all people on Social Welfare programs fall into this situation? I doubt you are. You said yourself that people can do better but many don't.

[Trueblue]

Then you should know that with a tax decrease all people could put that money to their child's education. Would they, well that is a completely different topic to my mind.

And you should know that a tax decrease doesn't change the fortunes of those who already have such low incomes that they don't pay taxes.

In reference to everything else those blanket statements I have made are in regards to earning more or paying for things we need. All people can do that unless they have something precluding them from that. Are you suggesting that all people on Social Welfare programs fall into this situation? I doubt you are. You said yourself that people can do better but many don't.

I'm not clear on what you mean.

Almost everyone can do better, myself included.

Many people on welfare could manage their money and personal lives far better. However, that doesn't translate into their being able to pay for private school.

[Wabash]

Wabash, you would jump on any bandwagon if you can use it to critique me. :lol

Your preface to your remarks shows that you know perfectly well what I'm talking about.

Not really TB...I've passed up many opportunities to jump on the TB 180 Bandwagon! I wouldn't even have too, if you'd just stop thinking like a lib!:hotdog

It's dinner time here.....but I'll splain later....

[cassandra]

Many people on welfare could manage their money and personal lives far better. However, that doesn't translate into their being able to pay for private school.

I disagree.

[Oceanbreeze]

The majority of private schools do give scholarships based on income, just like colleges/universities. So, there are hard knock cases, that had the brains and deterimination to WANT to get into the school.
http://216.92.169.126/admissions/financial_aid.html
http://www.savcps.com/


My husband beat all the odds, truly a heart breaking story. I think it could even make you cry, TB. :lmao But, he persevered and I stood by him. I knew what he was capable of becoming and he did become that man. If my husband can overcome the obstacles he did, anyone living in the US can.

[Trueblue]

The majority of private schools do give scholarships based on income, just like colleges/universities. So, there are hard knock cases, that had the brains and deterimination to WANT to get into the school.

But if everybody wanted to, those chances wouldn't be there.

My husband beat all the odds, truly a heart breaking story. I think it could even make you cry, TB.

I don't understand why you say "even me". I get bashed for being too hard hearted, and tomorrow I'll be bashed for being too soft hearted. I'm not kidding, it absolutely makes no sense to me. I am moved by people's stories all the time, OB. I'm anything but hard-hearted.

:lmao But, he persevered and I stood by him. I knew what he was capable of becoming and he did become that man. If my husband can overcome the obstacles he did, anyone living in the US can.

Ok, please don't take offense, this is meant rhetorically:

So your hubby is mentally retarded, has no legs, had a severe head injury from the beatings he endured from his father, was forced to have sex as a child with his mother's boyfriend because otherwise the boyfriend would have kicked them out, he speaks no English, his mother was malnourished when she was pregnant with him, his house burned down, his daddy went broke and got sent to prison, his school had a large and healthy roach population and a severe mold problem?

Seriously, I am 100% sure that your husband has an inspiring story and that he has every right to be proud of what he has overcome and accomplished. But no, I will not concede that if your hubby made it, anybody can, because I just know better.

[Oceanbreeze]

But if everybody wanted to, those chances wouldn't be there.



I don't understand why you say "even me". I get bashed for being too hard hearted, and tomorrow I'll be bashed for being too soft hearted. I'm not kidding, it absolutely makes no sense to me. I am moved by people's stories all the time, OB. I'm anything but hard-hearted.



Ok, please don't take offense, this is meant rhetorically:

So your hubby is mentally retarded, has no legs, had a severe head injury from the beatings he endured from his father, was forced to have sex as a child with his mother's boyfriend because otherwise the boyfriend would have kicked them out, he speaks no English, his mother was malnourished when she was pregnant with him, his house burned down, his daddy went broke and got sent to prison, his school had a large and healthy roach population and a severe mold problem?

Seriously, I am 100% sure that your husband has an inspiring story and that he has every right to be proud of what he has overcome and accomplished. But no, I will not concede that if your hubby made it, anybody can, because I just know better.

No, you honestly don't know better in this case. :shrug

In the above scenerio social services should be called in and the child should be removed and put in a loving home. Funny thing is, growing up, there was a neighbor boy who's grandparents took him in when a similar situation happened to him. God bless you, Brandon. :)

"I don't understand why you say "even me". I get bashed for being too hard hearted, and tomorrow I'll be bashed for being too soft hearted. I'm not kidding, it absolutely makes no sense to me. I am moved by people's stories all the time, OB. I'm anything but hard-hearted."

:lmao yeah, just not light hearted for us conseratives. :lmao I'm teasing. That's why I put the :lmao after "I think it could even make you cry, TB."

[Ringo]

Wabash, you would jump on any bandwagon if you can use it to critique me. :lol

Your preface to your remarks shows that you know perfectly well what I'm talking about.

Wabby quit OUT SPINNIN ol TB she is getting dizzy...getting dizzier, becoming more dizzy than first thought...ah hell she is wacko!!!:mw:lmao:pisslaugh

[Oceanbreeze]

Wabby quit OUT SPINNIN ol TB she is getting dizzy...getting dizzier, becoming more dizzy than first thought...ah hell she is wacko!!!:mw:lmao:pisslaugh

Nahhh..she just didn't know scholarships were out there, right TB?

[Trueblue]

No, you honestly don't know better in this case. :shrug

Yes, I do. I do not mean that I know something about your hubby's triumphs, rather that I know something about other people's lives.

In the above scenerio social services should be called in and the child should be removed and put in a loving home.

Fully agreed. Now let's talk about what really happens at times. There aren't enough foster parents, there aren't enough good relatives, and once the brain damage is done, it's done.

Funny thing is, growing up, there was a neighbor boy who's grandparents took him in when a similar situation happened to him. God bless you, Brandon. :)
"I don't understand why you say "even me". I get bashed for being too hard hearted, and tomorrow I'll be bashed for being too soft hearted. I'm not kidding, it absolutely makes no sense to me. I am moved by people's stories all the time, OB. I'm anything but hard-hearted."

:lmao yeah, just not light hearted for us conseratives. :lmao I'm teasing. That's why I put the :lmao after "I think it could even make you cry, TB."

Oh, okay.

Nahhh..she just didn't know scholarships were out there, right TB?

There aren't enough scholarships for everyone.

Public school is far from perfect. But it is a hotbed of democracy-and that is a good thing. Without it, we'd have a very large and disgruntled underclass.

[Oceanbreeze]

My husband WAS one of those "other people's lives". Seriously.

It's a shame people cast out family members, but even family members who do help are turned away by the ones in need.

"There aren't enough scholarships for everyone."
BULL$HIT. UTTER BULL$SHIT.
My husband was blessed to attend a Catholic school from K-8, full scholarship. He also graduated from Michigan State Universtiy on scholarships, ROTC, Army Reserves, AND by working 2 jobs while taking a full load of classes.

TB: Not all public schools are created equal. I can vouch for that personally when I was growing up and the 2 years my kids have spent (due to the private schools lacking in accomodations) in public school. The teachers are basically only babysitters (heaven forbid discpline the students...thanks to DEMOCRACY) and parent participation is beyond lacking. Let them be disgruntled, they deserve it. :soapbox

[Trueblue]

My husband WAS one of those "other people's lives". Seriously.

It's a shame people cast out family members, but even family members who do help are turned away by the ones in need.

I'm sure from your statements that he was. I am not denying your experience, you are denying mine.

"There aren't enough scholarships for everyone."
BULL$HIT. UTTER BULL$SHIT.

The bullshit is on your end. You calculate how many kids are in public school who are on free lunch and tell me if private schools even have enough scholarships for them.

My husband was blessed to attend a Catholic school from K-8, full scholarship. He also graduated from Michigan State Universtiy on scholarships, ROTC, Army Reserves, AND by working 2 jobs while taking a full load of classes.

Then it is as I suspected-he's smart. That does not take away from his accomplishments at all, it just figures into the equation. This is why not everyone can make it.

TB: Not all public schools are created equal. I can vouch for that personally when I was growing up and the 2 years my kids have spent (due to the private schools lacking in accomodations) in public school. The teachers are basically only babysitters (heaven forbid discpline the students...thanks to DEMOCRACY) and parent participation is beyond lacking. Let them be disgruntled, they deserve it. :soapbox

I would never, ever say that all public schools are created equally. However, there can be discipline in the schools. I don't know how democracy precludes discipline. :think

[Oceanbreeze]

I'm sure from your statements that he was. I am not denying your experience, you are denying mine.

I'm not denying you're experience. People can make it even if all the odds are AGAINST THEM.

The bullshit is on your end. You calculate how many kids are in public school who are on free lunch and tell me if private schools even have enough scholarships for them.

Bull$hit is back in your yard. Did you look at the links of the 2 schools I sent you for scholarship?

Then it is as I suspected-he's smart. That does not take away from his accomplishments at all, it just figures into the equation. This is why not everyone can make it.

Oh. So he only made it because he's smart? Determination is a MAJOR factor.

I would never, ever say that all public schools are created equally. However, there can be discipline in the schools. I don't know how democracy precludes discipline. :think

I was in public school from 1973-1986. Golly Gee, the paddle was used as was detentions. I was a teacher's kid. Did I get paddled? HELL YEAH. I was a teacher's kid, did I get detention? HELL YEAH. Did I learn from it? YES.


:soapbox :soapbox :soapbox

[Trueblue]

Yes, they can make it even if the odds are against them. But you are not looking at the big picture. What about the ones who cannot?

No bulls are shitting in my yard. If every public school kid who is poor got a scholarship, what would tuition be for the paying kids? This is a numbers game.

I NEVER said it was only because he was smart. I am saying that not everybody is.

I'm sorry to report that here in Tennessee, corporal punishment is still in use. In my observation, it is ineffective. Detention is also still in use. Please tell me where there are public schools who use NO discipline.

[Oceanbreeze]

Yes, they can make it even if the odds are against them. But you are not looking at the big picture. What about the ones who cannot?

Charity.

No bulls are shitting in my yard. If every public school kid who is poor got a scholarship, what would tuition be for the paying kids? This is a numbers game.

:lmao those who truly want it, will find a way.

I NEVER said it was only because he was smart. I am saying that not everybody is.

We are not all created equal. I'm not having a tantrum because I'm not 5'8.

I'm sorry to report that here in Tennessee, corporal punishment is still in use. In my observation, it is ineffective. Detention is also still in use. Please tell me where there are public schools who use NO discipline.

Ohh, Johnny had to sit in the chair during recess.




:soapbox :soapbox :soapbox

[Trueblue]

Oh, charity will fix it all. :lmao

You keep going in a circle. I'm not disagreeing that some people make it, I'm disagreeing that the problem is solved because some people make it. There are still those who want it and cannot make it because of lack of ability. You can talk all you like, but those folks are real. They aren't having a tantrum about it, as far as I know. They simply need an education, even if they aren't all that talented or determined.

And why are you going off on discipline? What is your point? Who are you even arguing with, did somebody say that they were anti-discipline?

We use corporal punishment here, and yet we still have discipline problems. It's not all that you think it is.

[Oceanbreeze]

"I'm disagreeing that the problem is solved because some people make it."

Wake up call to TB. NOT EVERYONE IS CREATED EQUAL!

[cassandra]

There are far more scholarships for underpriveledge people.

Here is my bottom line privitizing education is a good idea because that would mean people would have to be responsible.

[cassandra]

"I'm disagreeing that the problem is solved because some people make it."

Wake up call to TB. NOT EVERYONE IS CREATED EQUAL!

Don't underestimate that OB. Ever wonder why the US children are less smart than in other countries. Most likely because we hold back so many so that the chidren who don't do as well can catch up. The public school philosophy is to teach to the middle/low end of the class. :no

[Oceanbreeze]

There are far more scholarships for underpriveledge people.

Here is my bottom line privitizing education is a good idea because that would mean people would have to be responsible.

:paclap :paclap :paclap :paclap

[Oceanbreeze]

Don't underestimate that OB. Ever wonder why the US children are less smart than in other countries. Most likely because we hold back so many so that the chidren who don't do as well can catch up. The public school philosophy is to teach to the middle/low end of the class. :no

:paclap :paclap :paclap :paclap

[Trueblue]

Don't underestimate that OB. Ever wonder why the US children are less smart than in other countries. Most likely because we hold back so many so that the chidren who don't do as well can catch up. The public school philosophy is to teach to the middle/low end of the class. :no

That is a definite problem, and my own kids suffered from that.

"I'm disagreeing that the problem is solved because some people make it."

Wake up call to TB. NOT EVERYONE IS CREATED EQUAL!

Shame on you. I've said this repeatedly in this thread, and you are going to act like I'm disagreeing with it?

[Oceanbreeze]

That is a definite problem, and my own kids suffered from that.



Shame on you. I've said this repeatedly in this thread, and you are going to act like I'm disagreeing with it?

Everyone is not created equal. I took personal responsibility for a disability while I was in the public school system from 1973-1986. No help from my mom, my teachers, or the school. So there you have it, my husband made it even though he was poor, and I made it with a disability.

[Trueblue]

Everyone is not created equal. I took personal responsibility for a disability while I was in the public school system from 1973-1986. No help from my mom, my teachers, or the school. So there you have it, my husband made it even though he was poor, and I made it with a disability.

As I said before, shame on you for pretending that I disagree with you on the fact that not everyone is equal. I have said that repeatedly in these discussions when you claimed that anyone could make it in this country.

And what is more, not all disabilities are created equal.

[Oceanbreeze]

As I said before, shame on you for pretending that I disagree with you on the fact that not everyone is equal. I have said that repeatedly in these discussions when you claimed that anyone could make it in this country.

And what is more, not all disabilities are created equal.

So, are you going with poor or disabilities? Good Lord, I know all disabilities aren't created equal.

[Trueblue]

So, are you going with poor or disabilities? Good Lord, I know all disabilities aren't created equal.

I've been going with both, throughout the thread. Why do I have to choose? Surely you realize how often the two go together.

[Oceanbreeze]

I've been going with both, throughout the thread. Why do I have to choose? Surely you realize how often the two go together.

Now, I know the bull$hit is back in your yard.

http://www.specialolympics.org/Special+Olympics+Public+Website/English/Coach/Coaching_Guides/Basics+of+Special+Olympics/Special+Olympics+History.htm

[Trueblue]

Now, I know the bull$hit is back in your yard.

http://www.specialolympics.org/Special+Olympics+Public+Website/English/Coach/Coaching_Guides/Basics+of+Special+Olympics/Special+Olympics+History.htm

You can say bullshit and use those little soapbox emoticons all you like, but what I say is still true. Disability and poverty often go together. Special Olympics doesn't alter that.

Public schools started, in part, because kids were competing with adults for jobs. Do we really want to go back to that?

[cassandra]

As I said before, shame on you for pretending that I disagree with you on the fact that not everyone is equal. I have said that repeatedly in these discussions when you claimed that anyone could make it in this country.

And what is more, not all disabilities are created equal.

That is a definite problem, and my own kids suffered from that.



Shame on you. I've said this repeatedly in this thread, and you are going to act like I'm disagreeing with it?


You sicken me, your own children didn't succeed as much as they could have in public education and you still think it is the best thing.

Just as you have said, not every human nor every faction of humanity is equal so why should tax money go fund a education program that doesn't serve everyone at their own need. Unless you are one of the "lucky" ones on an IEP and you get individualized education.

[Deadshot]

http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/potato/flying-cat-fight.jpg

Depending on where you live, Public Education is just as good as anything else.

As to IEP's, Sandy my guess is most parents of students on IEP's would rather their child not have a disability and would not call them "lucky." While they love their children no matter what, many parents would surely give up the IEP and their childs autism or LD or Cerebral Palsey for the education of a typical child.

[Oceanbreeze]

That's all good, Deadshot. But, in public education it's usually honors/gifted programs that are the first to be cut.

[Oceanbreeze]

That's all good, Deadshot. But, in public education it's usually honors/gifted/art/music programs that are the first to be cut.

[Trueblue]

You sicken me, your own children didn't succeed as much as they could have in public education and you still think it is the best thing.

Just as you have said, not every human nor every faction of humanity is equal so why should tax money go fund a education program that doesn't serve everyone at their own need. Unless you are one of the "lucky" ones on an IEP and you get individualized education.

I sicken you? I sicken you? Now you are questioning if I'm a good mother? How can you make that part of the discussion? I love my children and always try to do the best for them. This is really uncalled for.

Your kids are young, maybe you think that you can, or should, make everything perfect for them. I know that I can't, and that I shouldn't, either. Also, I don't think that everything in life is about me, or about them. I have a responsibility as a child of God and fellow human being. I'm glad I taught them that.

Even kids with IEPs are often poorly served. I want to improve public education, not scrap it.

My kids are doing quite well. Their parents [me and DH] did their best to make up for the deficits.

Public education is best for society overall, and while it needs improvement in the area that Sandi mentioned, as well as many other areas, my children are served by having an educated society in which to live.

http://blogs.mysanantonio.com/weblogs/potato/flying-cat-fight.jpg

Depending on where you live, Public Education is just as good as anything else.

As to IEP's, Sandy my guess is most parents of students on IEP's would rather their child not have a disability and would not call them "lucky." While they love their children no matter what, many parents would surely give up the IEP and their childs autism or LD or Cerebral Palsey for the education of a typical child.

Well, I'm torn. I agree with you wholehearted about the "luck" of having an IEP because of autism or CP, but the catfight allusion is not appreciated.

[Trueblue]

That's all good, Deadshot. But, in public education it's usually honors/gifted/art/music programs that are the first to be cut.

:werd

And I'm sorry I said shame on you, I got upset because I was being informed of a point that I was trying to make. Often, somebody like Wab will carry on about something like that for the next....five or six months. :lol

[Oceanbreeze]

"I want to improve public education, not scrap it. "

I can agree with that. But improve it for everyone.

[cassandra]

I sicken you? I sicken you? Now you are questioning if I'm a good mother? How can you make that part of the discussion? I love my children and always try to do the best for them. This is really uncalled for.

Your kids are young, maybe you think that you can, or should, make everything perfect for them. I know that I can't, and that I shouldn't, either. Also, I don't think that everything in life is about me, or about them. I have a responsibility as a child of God and fellow human being. I'm glad I taught them that.

Even kids with IEPs are often poorly served. I want to improve public education, not scrap it.

My kids are doing quite well. Their parents [me and DH] did their best to make up for the deficits.

Public education is best for society overall, and while it needs improvement in the area that Sandi mentioned, as well as many other areas, my children are served by having an educated society in which to live.



Well, I'm torn. I agree with you wholehearted about the "luck" of having an IEP because of autism or CP, but the catfight allusion is not appreciated.

TB I am sorry that I hit a nerve in you. I certainly don't mean anything about your parenting. I meant it about your view of education. You noted it didn't serve your children well and yet you still cling to it. I meant nothing and know nothing of your parenting. I am sorry that you read that into my being sick over your comments about education.

As for all the comments about "luck" and being on an IEP - DUH! Being a parent of a child with a disability I would much rather have her without it. I was simply noting that children on IEP's, at least in my experience, are the only children who are lucky enough to have their education tailored to them. All others have to fit into a cookie cutter mold.

Public education is what my children will go to, but not because I think it is best. Because I am already paying for it and I am able to monitor it and get the best out of it. If at some point it is not servicing my child's needs I will work harder to make sure they have the tools they need in life.

Private education for all would allow for ALL children to be serviced in much better ways.

[Trueblue]

"I want to improve public education, not scrap it. "

I can agree with that. But improve it for everyone.

I agree.

TB I am sorry that I hit a nerve in you.

You didn't hit a nerve, you insulted me. To say that you hit a nerve implies that your comments were justified. Your comments was not justified, it was simply rude and out of line.

I certainly don't mean anything about your parenting. I meant it about your view of education. You noted it didn't serve your children well and yet you still cling to it. I meant nothing and know nothing of your parenting. I am sorry that you read that into my being sick over your comments about education.

I am sorry that you made a personal comment to me, and that you can't find it in yourself to make an apology other than to say that you are sorry that I read something into your comment which was clearly there!

I do not cling to public education, I believe in public education. And it didn't serve my children perfectly. I never said it didn't serve them well. I'm sure that you can see the difference.

As for all the comments about "luck" and being on an IEP - DUH! Being a parent of a child with a disability I would much rather have her without it. I was simply noting that children on IEP's, at least in my experience, are the only children who are lucky enough to have their education tailored to them. All others have to fit into a cookie cutter mold.

Public education is what my children will go to, but not because I think it is best. Because I am already paying for it and I am able to monitor it and get the best out of it. If at some point it is not servicing my child's needs I will work harder to make sure they have the tools they need in life.

Private education for all would allow for ALL children to be serviced in much better ways.

Private education solely would leave the most vulnerable children behind, and would lead to a less democratic society.

[Oceanbreeze]

Funds formula benefits private schools: report

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/funds-formula-benefits-private-schools-report/2008/01/24/1201157559976.html

[Cookie Parker]

Of course there are. I am not sure why it is about religion to you. All charter schools have an agenda. Many use computers and less pen and paper claiming to be more technological. Everybody has an agenda. I assume yours is to keep religion out of any education even if it is private and the parents want it.



I love the Lord with all my heart but would not want to send my children to a religious school. I prefer to teach religion in my home and I know many others feel the same.


I don't think I should pay for someone else's religion. If there's no religion allowed in the building, then taxes can pay for charter schools. But to pay for religion is to endorse religion...and I don't. Religion belongs in churches or mosques or synagouges, etc.

[Oceanbreeze]

I don't think I should pay for someone else's religion. If there's no religion allowed in the building, then taxes can pay for charter schools. But to pay for religion is to endorse religion...and I don't. Religion belongs in churches or mosques or synagouges, etc.

There are many different types of private schools, besides religious ones. I agree, taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for anyone else's religion. Religion should be paid for those who it's their belief system, such as familes like me. We have had our children in Christian schools, except the last 2 years, and we have thrived spiritually, emotionally, and altruistically in a Christian atmosphere, which isn't allowed in public education. :(


Just to name 2 organizations my children have been involved with through Christian Schools. They also donated and spent time in soup kitchens, nursing homes, ect. That isn't allowed in public school. :(

http://www.habitat.org/eca/
http://www.samaritanspurse.org/
http://missionaries.org/

[Oceanbreeze]

TB; you know when we lived in GA and owned our home, our kids went to a private Christian School. I was paying $1782 to the public school in taxes and tuition to the private school. So, if those who are in private school, should they be exempt from paying into the public school?

[AYFR]

TB; you know when we lived in GA and owned our home, our kids went to a private Christian School. I was paying $1782 to the public school in taxes and tuition to the private school. So, if those who are in private school, should they be exempt from paying into the public school?
Silly OB
You know better than that. Since you can afford private school it is also you duty to foot the bill for other peoples children as well.

"From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need." Karl Marx

It's the Robin Hood effect. Steal from those that have it to give to those that don't.

[cassandra]

I don't think I should pay for someone else's religion. If there's no religion allowed in the building, then taxes can pay for charter schools. But to pay for religion is to endorse religion...and I don't. Religion belongs in churches or mosques or synagouges, etc.

If all schools were private there would be no government paying in on it. You wouldn't be paying for it. :)

[AYFR]

If all schools were private there would be no government paying in on it. You wouldn't be paying for it. :)

But what about all those kids that can't afford school (but somehow their families can afford cable)

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:
Forty-three percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

Eighty percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.

The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 31 percent own two or more cars.

Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

Eighty-nine percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and more than a third have an automatic dishwasher.

As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II.

While the poor are generally well nourished, some poor families do experience temporary food shortages. But even this condition is relatively rare; 89 percent of the poor report their families have "enough" food to eat, while only 2 percent say they "often" do not have enough to eat.
More here
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg2064.cfm

[cassandra]

Rev I know what you are talking about. My personal preference in that situation is for vouchers since American's tend to be to stupid to do the right thing.

It is so amazing to me how the poor in this country live. There are terribly poor places on this globe and the people don't live like this.

[Trueblue]

But what about all those kids that can't afford school (but somehow their families can afford cable)


More here
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg2064.cfm

I get your point, but cable isn't as expensive as private school. :lol

I don't know how somebody can compare the circumstances of the poor in a third world country and America. It's just not the same situation at all.

[Trueblue]

TB; you know when we lived in GA and owned our home, our kids went to a private Christian School. I was paying $1782 to the public school in taxes and tuition to the private school. So, if those who are in private school, should they be exempt from paying into the public school?

In my opinion, no, there shouldn't be a tax credit for private school tuition. Schools are not for the benefit of parents, they are for the benefit of society.

Silly OB
You know better than that. Since you can afford private school it is also you duty to foot the bill for other peoples children as well.

"From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need." Karl Marx

It's the Robin Hood effect. Steal from those that have it to give to those that don't.

That poor old quote from Marx. Funny how closely it resembles the message of Paul, isn't it?

Again, school is for the public good, not a service to parents.

[Trueblue]

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:
Forty-three percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.


And your point is...

Eighty percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.


It's quite hot nowdays in the summer time. You do remember how many people died in Europe a few years back from the heat, don't you?

Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.

A bogus statement if I ever heard one. :lol

The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

What is the point of these statements?

Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 31 percent own two or more cars.

:rofl We don't have public transit.

Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

Have you tried to find a B and W TV lately?

Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

Who wrote this piece, Ebneezer Scrooge? :lol

Eighty-nine percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and more than a third have an automatic dishwasher.

Same thing. :lol

As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II.

While the poor are generally well nourished, some poor families do experience temporary food shortages. But even this condition is relatively rare; 89 percent of the poor report their families have "enough" food to eat, while only 2 percent say they "often" do not have enough to eat.

What is the point of this article? What does it prove? Have you been to the Goodwill, or any yardsales, where people pick up cheap TVs, VCRs, microwaves, etc?

[Oceanbreeze]

In my opinion, no, there shouldn't be a tax credit for private school tuition. Schools are not for the benefit of parents, they are for the benefit of society.



That poor old quote from Marx. Funny how closely it resembles the message of Paul, isn't it?

Again, school is for the public good, not a service to parents.

OK. I will say it point blank, Deadshot please don't ream me a new one.

I shouldn't have to pay for anybody else for any of their essentials in life. I am only responsible for myself, my children, my family. All others, to each their own. With that said, we donate up the ying yang to charities so don't EVEN GO THERE.

[Trueblue]

OK. I will say it point blank, Deadshot please don't ream me a new one.

I shouldn't have to pay for anybody else for any of their essentials in life. I am only responsible for myself, my children, my family. All others, to each their own. With that said, we donate up the ying yang to charities so don't EVEN GO THERE.

So do you mean schools are charity, or are you just talking about welfare like checks or food stamps?

[Oceanbreeze]

So do you mean schools are charity, or are you just talking about welfare like checks or food stamps?

No. But I shouldn't have to pay DOUBLE.

[Trueblue]

Nobody's making you send your kids to private school, it's a choice.

By that logic, people without kids in school shouldn't be taxed for school.

[Oceanbreeze]

Nobody's making you send your kids to private school, it's a choice.

By that logic, people without kids in school shouldn't be taxed for school.

BINGO!!! :woot I agree, we shouldn't have to pay taxes if we don't have kids or if our kids dont' attend public school. :woot

[AYFR]

TB my point was that "poor" is a relative term.

[AYFR]

In my opinion, no, there shouldn't be a tax credit for private school tuition. Schools are not for the benefit of parents, they are for the benefit of society.



Again, school is for the public good, not a service to parents.Why should I be FORCED to pay for the common good? BTW children ARE the responsibility of the parents and it is the PARENTS responsibility to provide EVERYTHING (including education) for them. Where in the USC does it say the government should provide for the common good?

That poor old quote from Marx. Funny how closely it resembles the message of Paul, isn't it? Difference is Marx intended it to be forced by the government (the government takes and then spreads it around) and Paul's messages it was a persons choice to do it.

[Trueblue]

BINGO!!! :woot I agree, we shouldn't have to pay taxes if we don't have kids or if our kids dont' attend public school. :woot

Then that is the difference. Schools were not established to help parents, that is why we are all taxed. I have trouble imagining a society where there is no general education, considering that most jobs now require that the person be able to read.

TB my point was that "poor" is a relative term.

I see.

Why should I be FORCED to pay for the common good? BTW children ARE the responsibility of the parents and it is the PARENTS responsibility to provide EVERYTHING (including education) for them. Where in the USC does it say the government should provide for the common good?

Difference is Marx intended it to be forced by the government (the government takes and then spreads it around) and Paul's messages it was a persons choice to do it.

But WE are this government. We don't live under a totalitarian regime, we choose the people who decide our tax rates.

I certainly see the charm of the idea that we never pay a dime in taxes for the benefit of someone else's needs. There is a logic to it. Of course, don't appreciate being taxed for Bush's war in Iraq, since it was not for my defense but instead to enrich his friends and insure a temporary source of oil. But I am able to grasp that in a society not every expenditure will meet with my personal approval.

I will use Matt's words here-I just don't see that as leading to a workable society. People dead in the ditches from hunger would bother me, just like it would bother most Americans.

The idea of taxation for the common need is not a modern one:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=41&version=31&context=chapter

46 Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from Pharaoh's presence and traveled throughout Egypt. 47 During the seven years of abundance the land produced plentifully. 48 Joseph collected all the food produced in those seven years of abundance in Egypt and stored it in the cities. In each city he put the food grown in the fields surrounding it. 49 Joseph stored up huge quantities of grain, like the sand of the sea; it was so much that he stopped keeping records because it was beyond measure.

53 The seven years of abundance in Egypt came to an end, 54 and the seven years of famine began, just as Joseph had said. There was famine in all the other lands, but in the whole land of Egypt there was food. 55 When all Egypt began to feel the famine, the people cried to Pharaoh for food. Then Pharaoh told all the Egyptians, "Go to Joseph and do what he tells you."

56 When the famine had spread over the whole country, Joseph opened the storehouses and sold grain to the Egyptians, for the famine was severe throughout Egypt. 57 And all the countries came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the world.

[Oceanbreeze]

Then that is the difference. Schools were not established to help parents, that is why we are all taxed. I have trouble imagining a society where there is no general education, considering that most jobs now require that the person be able to read.



The people who homeschool also shouldn't be taxed, which is growing at an alarming rate due the horrible public school system

[Trueblue]

The people who homeschool also shouldn't be taxed, which is growing at an alarming rate due the horrible public school system

What you suggest is a radical departure from what the US and every other industrialized nation has done in the modern age. The education of all children is generally considered a huge advantage to employers and the military.

Homeschooling is often motivated by the best of reasons. Other motivations are 1) an objection to the science or history teaching in the school that conflicts with the family's beliefs, or 2) the family not wanting to comply with the attendance or discipline requirements of the school.

[Trueblue]

Why should I be FORCED to pay for the common good? BTW children ARE the responsibility of the parents and it is the PARENTS responsibility to provide EVERYTHING (including education) for them. Where in the USC does it say the government should provide for the common good?

Difference is Marx intended it to be forced by the government (the government takes and then spreads it around) and Paul's messages it was a persons choice to do it.

Huh? :think

It says it here:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

[Cookie Parker]

Why should I be FORCED to pay for the common good? BTW children ARE the responsibility of the parents and it is the PARENTS responsibility to provide EVERYTHING (including education) for them. Where in the USC does it say the government should provide for the common good?

Difference is Marx intended it to be forced by the government (the government takes and then spreads it around) and Paul's messages it was a persons choice to do it.

You live in a democracy where your COMMON good is a well educated country so that your government may not use poor education as a reason to support corporations with YOUR tax dollars taking jobs overseas.....

You are not just YOU here...if you fail to see your part in a society greater than you, then might I suggest you go to an island...where YOU can be the only focus.

A nation, THIS nation, has always been only as strong as its weakest link.

[Trueblue]

You live in a democracy where your COMMON good is a well educated country so that your government may not use poor education as a reason to support corporations with YOUR tax dollars taking jobs overseas.....

You are not just YOU here...if you fail to see your part in a society greater than you, then might I suggest you go to an island...where YOU can be the only focus.

A nation, THIS nation, has always been only as strong as its weakest link.

:clap :clap :clap :clap

That's it!!!!

:party

[Oceanbreeze]

What you suggest is a radical departure from what the US and every other industrialized nation has done in the modern age. The education of all children is generally considered a huge advantage to employers and the military.

Homeschooling is often motivated by the best of reasons. Other motivations are 1) an objection to the science or history teaching in the school that conflicts with the family's beliefs, or 2) the family not wanting to comply with the attendance or discipline requirements of the school.

1. No, the objection is the subjects aren't even being taught at standard level because of discipline problems
2. No, the objection is the rest of the class isn't being disciplined, thus the lack of productivity of the class in NIL.

I am pro-private school. Nothing will ever change my mind on that. As parents, we know how much more productive it is because the students WANT to learn in private school. The parents are invested finacially and academically with their child in a learning enviroment. If a child doesn't cut it with academics or behavior they are kicked out.

[Oceanbreeze]

You live in a democracy where your COMMON good is a well educated country so that your government may not use poor education as a reason to support corporations with YOUR tax dollars taking jobs overseas.....

You are not just YOU here...if you fail to see your part in a society greater than you, then might I suggest you go to an island...where YOU can be the only focus.

A nation, THIS nation, has always been only as strong as its weakest link.

Then society as a whole needs to be pro-active in their education and role in society.

[Cookie Parker]

1. No, the objection is the subjects aren't even being taught at standard level because of discipline problems
2. No, the objection is the rest of the class isn't being disciplined, thus the lack of productivity of the class in NIL.

I am pro-private school. Nothing will ever change my mind on that. As parents, we know how much more productive it is because the students WANT to learn in private school. The parents are invested finacially and academically with their child in a learning enviroment. If a child doesn't cut it with academics or behavior they are kicked out.

No, the problem is your party has given away so much money, schools have none to repair structures or build new ones to keep the crowded classrooms down.

Your party has taken jobs overseas at such a quick rate, even the housing industry is collapsing because of the loss of income by America's middle class. This creates poverty and generations of children who see their parents without work and themselves finding no point in education.

Your party keeps pushing anti-educational issues like ID which does not allow children to use their brains to think and reason.

Your party continually fails the american people in health insurance and creating good jobs and providing a large tax base which gives more to social welfare than the current three times larger corporate welfare YOUR party believes in...

Uh, there's more...but you already know them...

[Cookie Parker]

Then society as a whole needs to be pro-active in their education and role in society.


Society as a whole needs to give up their selfish little "My god is bigger and badder than your god" and start working to repair the destruction of this nation caused by YOUR party...

[Trueblue]

1. No, the objection is the subjects aren't even being taught at standard level because of discipline problems

That has not been my experience.

2. No, the objection is the rest of the class isn't being disciplined, thus the lack of productivity of the class in NIL.

That hasn't been my experience, either.

Where exactly have you found these wildly out of control schools and students?

I have never seen this as a reason for homeschooling.

I am pro-private school. Nothing will ever change my mind on that. As parents, we know how much more productive it is because the students WANT to learn in private school. The parents are invested finacially and academically with their child in a learning enviroment. If a child doesn't cut it with academics or behavior they are kicked out.

Not necessarily. :lol

What kind of nation will we have if everyone who doesn't cut it academically or behaviorally is out on the streets?

No, the problem is your party has given away so much money, schools have none to repair structures or build new ones to keep the crowded classrooms down.

Your party has taken jobs overseas at such a quick rate, even the housing industry is collapsing because of the loss of income by America's middle class. This creates poverty and generations of children who see their parents without work and themselves finding no point in education.

Your party keeps pushing anti-educational issues like ID which does not allow children to use their brains to think and reason.

Your party continually fails the american people in health insurance and creating good jobs and providing a large tax base which gives more to social welfare than the current three times larger corporate welfare YOUR party believes in...

Uh, there's more...but you already know them...

:clap AMEN!!!!!

[Cookie Parker]

Also, what we DON'T need is a president with a self-admitted dyslexic problem forcing schools to teach children of ALL abilities in one classroom.

My stars...we don't need him as president, much less a man incharge of education. Anyone think of solitary intelligent thought coming from his mouth sober? Come to think of it, anyone ever see him sober?

[Oceanbreeze]

Also, what we DON'T need is a president with a self-admitted dyslexic problem forcing schools to teach children of ALL abilities in one classroom.

My stars...we don't need him as president, much less a man incharge of education. Anyone think of solitary intelligent thought coming from his mouth sober? Come to think of it, anyone ever see him sober?

So you don't believe in main-streaming?

Cookie; President Bush or the Republican party is not responsible for the decline of public education, it's the parents, not the gov't.

[Oceanbreeze]

Where exactly have you found these wildly out of control schools and students?


Public schools are public babysitters without the authority to discipline without the fear of a lawsuit. Suzy's mom called the NACCP and ACLU because her child was going to fail because she couldn't read. :blah :blah :blah

[Trueblue]

So you don't believe in main-streaming?

Cookie; President Bush or the Republican party is not responsible for the decline of public education, it's the parents, not the gov't.

Surprise! I disagree. :snicker

Special education is one of the many unfunded mandates that the states are struggling to keep in place. NCLB is another.

Schools are underfunded, and that is a problem provided to us by the Pubs.

The parents who don't care about their kids are a distinct minority, a group with little power and influence. They are an easy target, but how can this small group be responsible for any lack in the public schools?

[Trueblue]

Public schools are public babysitters without the authority to discipline without the fear of a lawsuit. Suzy's mom called the NACCP and ACLU because her child was going to fail because she couldn't read. :blah :blah :blah

You say this stuff without the slightest reference to reality, as if just manufacturing the scenario is proof that it is real. Do you have any evidence that this has happened at all, that it worked, or that it is a widespread problem?

Schools do have the authority to discipline and give grades where I live. You better hightail it to Tennessee if that is your desire.

[Oceanbreeze]

Surprise! I disagree. :snicker

Special education is one of the many unfunded mandates that the states are struggling to keep in place. NCLB is another.

Schools are underfunded, and that is a problem provided to us by the Pubs.

The parents who don't care about their kids are a distinct minority, a group with little power and influence. They are an easy target, but how can this small group be responsible for any lack in the public schools?

Under funding is soley the Republican's party fault. Give me a link.

Bull$hit that parents do care about their kids education. My 4th grade daughter's classroom is a perfect example. She's got an awesome teacher but a classroom full of kids who don't care, where do you think they got that attitude from? Thin air?

[Trueblue]

Under funding is soley the Republican's party fault. Give me a link.

Well, I could be hard to get along with and demand that you occasionally back up what you say. Plus, this is like being asked to prove that Barak Obama is running for President. The Pubs have been obstructionist in supporting public education.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/08/america/NA_GEN_US_School_Police.php

http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc-printable.cfm?doc_name=fs-109-1-143

Bull$hit that parents do care about their kids education. My 4th grade daughter's classroom is a perfect example. She's got an awesome teacher but a classroom full of kids who don't care, where do you think they got that attitude from? Thin air?

Does it make it better to say bullshit if you replace the s with a dollar sign?

Kids just don't necessarily see the value of an education. Why? Because they are kids. Do you think that Tom Sawyer was entirely based on fiction? :D

[Oceanbreeze]

Well, I could be hard to get along with and demand that you occasionally back up what you say. Plus, this is like being asked to prove that Barak Obama is running for President. The Pubs have been obstructionist in supporting public education.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/08/america/NA_GEN_US_School_Police.php

http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc-printable.cfm?doc_name=fs-109-1-143



Does it make it better to say bullshit if you replace the s with a dollar sign?

Kids just don't necessarily see the value of an education. Why? Because they are kids. Do you think that Tom Sawyer was entirely based on fiction? :D


Give me a break. Children are interested in education if their parents are, simple.

[Trueblue]

Give me a break. Children are interested in education if their parents are, simple.

Bullshit, with the S left intact.

Some kids are, some kids aren't.

Parents play a key role in their kids education, I agree. But these are fourth grade kids.

People don't always put action behind what they care for, but most parents do want to see their kids succeed.

We need to fully fund NCLB, and make some minor changes to the unrealistic demands that all kids be able to graduate from High School, and we will see a difference. I already see a difference, and that's without adequate funding.

[AYFR]

But WE are this government. We don't live under a totalitarian regime, we choose the people who decide our tax rates.

I certainly see the charm of the idea that we never pay a dime in taxes for the benefit of someone else's needs. There is a logic to it. Of course, don't appreciate being taxed for Bush's war in Iraq, since it was not for my defense but instead to enrich his friends and insure a temporary source of oil. But I am able to grasp that in a society not every expenditure will meet with my personal approval.

I will use Matt's words here-I just don't see that as leading to a workable society. People dead in the ditches from hunger would bother me, just like it would bother most Americans.

The idea of taxation for the common need is not a modern one:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=41&version=31&context=chapter
Paying for war is ONE of the jobs of the Federal Government. Just because it is not a modern idea doesn't mean it is a good one.

Huh? :think

It says it here:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
It says to PROMOTE not PROVIDE.
Provide
1. to make available; furnish: to provide employees with various benefits.
2. to supply or equip: to provide the army with new fighter planes.
3. to afford or yield.
4. Law. to arrange for or stipulate beforehand, as by a provision or proviso.
Promote
1. to help or encourage to exist or flourish; further: to promote world peace.
2. to advance in rank, dignity, position, etc. (opposed to demote).
3. Education. to put ahead to the next higher stage or grade of a course or series of classes.
4. to aid in organizing (business undertakings).
5. to encourage the sales, acceptance, etc., of (a product), esp. through advertising or other publicity.
6. Informal. to obtain (something) by cunning or trickery; wangle.
ALSO that is the Preamble
The Preamble of the U.S. Constitution does not assign any specific powers to the federal government[2] or provide specific limitations on government action. Due to this, it has almost certainly never been relied upon by any court as the dispositive factor in deciding a case.[3] However, the courts have cited the Preamble for evidence of the history, intent and meaning of various other parts of the Constitution.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Although the preamble is not a source of power for any department of the Federal Government, 1 the Supreme Court has often referred to it as evidence of the origin, scope, and purpose of the Constitution. 2 ''Its true office,'' wrote Joseph Story in his COMMENTARIES, ''is to expound the nature and extent and application of the powers actually conferred by the Constitution, and not substantively to create them. For example, the preamble declares one object to be, 'to provide for the common defense.' No one can doubt that this does not enlarge the powers of Congress to pass any measures which they deem useful for the common defence. But suppose the terms of a given power admit of two constructions, the one more restrictive, the other more liberal, and each of them is consistent with the words, but is, and ought to be, governed by the intent of the power; if one could promote and the other defeat the common defence, ought not the former, upon the soundest principles of interpretation, to be adopted?'' 3
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/preamble/


You live in a democracy where your COMMON good is a well educated country so that your government may not use poor education as a reason to support corporations with YOUR tax dollars taking jobs overseas.....

You are not just YOU here...if you fail to see your part in a society greater than you, then might I suggest you go to an island...where YOU can be the only focus.

A nation, THIS nation, has always been only as strong as its weakest link.
Education is not a job of the government. IT is the job of the parents. Your idea of a great nation differs from my idea of one. My idea is one that it's people are self sufficient and not relying on the government to provide for them, THAT makes a society greater, THAT helps the common good. People better THEMSELVES are what makes nations great. Governments providing for them does not. It makes people lazy and unmotivated.
My part in this nation is to better myself and provide for my family without being a drain on society. Also to teach then to be self sufficient and to better themselves. That will make this country greater.

If you always provide for people they have no reason to work or better themselves. Why should they even try if the government just gives them what they need? That is not compassion, that does not better this nation.

Teach a man to fish and they become better and more self-sufficient, give a man a fish and they become lazy bums.

[Trueblue]

Paying for war is ONE of the jobs of the Federal Government. Just because it is not a modern idea doesn't mean it is a good one.

I'm sure you realize that this point isn't being argued.

It says to PROMOTE not PROVIDE.

Yep, but my point remains.

ALSO that is the Preamble
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/preamble/




Yes, it certainly is. What is your point?

Education is not a job of the government. IT is the job of the parents. Your idea of a great nation differs from my idea of one. My idea is one that it's people are self sufficient and not relying on the government to provide for them, THAT makes a society greater, THAT helps the common good. People better THEMSELVES are what makes nations great. Governments providing for them does not. It makes people lazy and unmotivated.
My part in this nation is to better myself and provide for my family without being a drain on society. Also to teach then to be self sufficient and to better themselves. That will make this country greater.


As I said, your viewpoint is extremely radical. It takes us back many decades, if not centuries, to say that education is the sole job of parents.

My idea of a great nation is the USA, with universal education as a way to create wealth and freedom.

If you always provide for people they have no reason to work or better themselves. Why should they even try if the government just gives them what they need? That is not compassion, that does not better this nation.

Teach a man to fish and they become better and more self-sufficient, give a man a fish and they become lazy bums.

:rofl I agree about teaching. Are you sure this is YOUR point, or are you making mine?

This nation is bettered by having a social safety net. Your ideas would not lead to a workable society, IMO, but to a larger version of Pottersville.

[AYFR]

No, the problem is your party has given away so much money, schools have none to repair structures or build new ones to keep the crowded classrooms down.

Your party has taken jobs overseas at such a quick rate, even the housing industry is collapsing because of the loss of income by America's middle class. This creates poverty and generations of children who see their parents without work and themselves finding no point in education.

Your party keeps pushing anti-educational issues like ID which does not allow children to use their brains to think and reason.

Your party continually fails the american people in health insurance and creating good jobs and providing a large tax base which gives more to social welfare than the current three times larger corporate welfare YOUR party believes in...

Uh, there's more...but you already know them...
:bullshit First outsourcing started under the CLINTON Administration (but I know that you already new that)
Besides that government cannot control where a company takes itself.
You give a lot of bullshit in your post and not one shred of proof to back it up.

Also, what we DON'T need is a president with a self-admitted dyslexic problem forcing schools to teach children of ALL abilities in one classroom.

My stars...we don't need him as president, much less a man incharge of education. Anyone think of solitary intelligent thought coming from his mouth sober? Come to think of it, anyone ever see him sober?
What we don't need it the government period bieng in charge of education. I mean they have done so well with the other programs haven't they? Medicare, social security, welfare. Yeah those programs work just dandy don't they? :lol

[Trueblue]

:bullshit First outsourcing started under the CLINTON Administration (but I know that you already new that)
Besides that government cannot control where a company takes itself.
You give a lot of bullshit in your post and not one shred of proof to back it up.

The tax breaks are the issue.

What we don't need it the government period bieng in charge of education. I mean they have done so well with the other programs haven't they? Medicare, social security, welfare. Yeah those programs work just dandy don't they? :lol

Are you kidding? You don't think that any of those programs are working?

[AYFR]

Bullshit, with the S left intact.

Some kids are, some kids aren't.

Parents play a key role in their kids education, I agree. But these are fourth grade kids.

People don't always put action behind what they care for, but most parents do want to see their kids succeed.

We need to fully fund NCLB, and make some minor changes to the unrealistic demands that all kids be able to graduate from High School, and we will see a difference. I already see a difference, and that's without adequate funding.

The NCLB is a crock, a bad idea, and a waste of money.

WASHINGTON — No Child Left Behind, supposedly an antidote to the "soft bigotry of low expectations," has instead spawned lowered standards. The law will eventually be reauthorized because doubling down on losing bets is what Washington does. But because NCLB contains incentives for perverse behavior, reauthorization should include legislation empowering states to ignore it.

NCLB was passed in 2001 as an extension of the original mistake, President Lyndon Johnson's Elementary and Secondary Education Act, which became law in the year of liberals living exuberantly — 1965, when Great Society excesses sowed the seeds of conservatism's subsequent ascendancy.

ESEA was the first large Washington intrusion into education K through 12. NCLB was supported by Republicans reluctant to vastly expand that intrusion but even more reluctant to oppose a new president's signature issue. This expansion of Washington's role in the quintessential state and local responsibility was problematic for three reasons.

First, most new ideas are dubious, so federalization of policy increases the probability of continentwide mistakes. Second, education is susceptible to pedagogic fads and social engineering fantasies — schools of education incubate them — so it is prone to producing continental regrets. Third, America always is more likely to have a few wise state governments than a wise federal government.
With mandated data collections — particularly tests of "adequate yearly progress" in reading and math — NCLB was supposed to generate information that would enable schools to be held accountable for cognitive outputs commensurate with federal financial inputs. Bad data would make schools blush and reform.

Fourteen months ago, the president said, "The gap is closing. ... How do we know? Because we're measuring." But about those measurements. ...

NCLB requires states to identify, by criteria they devise, "persistently dangerous schools." But what state wants that embarrassment?

The Washington Post recently reported that last year, of America's approximately 94,000 public schools, the "persistently dangerous" numbered 46. There were none among the 9,000 schools in amazingly tranquil California.

NCLB's crucial provisions concern testing to measure yearly progress toward the goal of "universal proficiency" in math and reading by 2014.

This goal is America's version of Soviet grain quotas, solemnly avowed but not seriously constraining. Most states retain the low standards they had before; some have defined proficiency down.

So says "The Proficiency Illusion," a report from the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, which studies education reform. Its findings include: The rationale for standards-based reform was that expectations would become more rigorous and uniform, but states' proficiency tests vary "wildly" in difficulty, "with 'passing scores' ranging from the 6th percentile to the 77th." Indeed, "half of the reported improvement in reading, and 70 percent of the reported improvement in mathematics, appear idiosyncratic to the state test." In some states, tests have become more demanding; but in twice as many states, the tests in at least two grades have become easier. NCLB encourages schools to concentrate their efforts on the relatively small number of students near the state test's proficiency minimum — the students that can most help the state meet its "adequate yearly progress" requirements.

Rep. Peter Hoekstra, a Republican who represents western Michigan's culturally cohesive Dutch Calvinist communities, opposed NCLB from the start because he thought it would "tear apart the bond between the schools and the local communities." He believes the reauthorized version of NCLB will "gut" accountability. He is gloomily sanguine about that because he thinks accountability belongs at the local level anyway, and because removing meaningful accountability removes NCLB's raison d'etre. He proposes giving states the option of submitting to Washington a "Declaration of Intent" to reclaim full responsibility for K-12 education. Such states would receive their portion of K-12 funds as block grants.

But Rep. Scott Garrett, a New Jersey Republican, warns that Washington, with its unsleeping hunger for control, steadily attaches multiple strings to block grants. He proposes to allow states to opt out from under NCLB's mandates and regulations and to give residents of those states tax credits equal to the portion of their taxes their state would have received back in federal funds for K-12 education. Garrett thinks that this could be a template for states to escape many entanglements with Washington.

NCLB intensified what Paul Posner of George Mason University calls "coercive federalism." Kenneth Wong and Gail Sunderman of Brown University and the Harvard Civil Rights Project, respectively, say NCLB "signaled the end of 'layer cake' federalism and strengthened the notion of 'marble cake' federalism, where the national and subnational governments share responsibilities in the domestic arena." Hoekstra's and Garrett's proposals would enable states to push Washington toward where it once was and where it belongs regarding K through 12 education: Out.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/1,5143,695234090,00.html

[AYFR]

The tax breaks are the issue.



Are you kidding? You don't think that any of those programs are working?

They are working, they are just working badly.

SS is going broke, Medicare doesn't cover everything needed (among other issues), and welfare is just a big mess

As for tax breaks I think that business shouldn't be taxed anyways. Do you really think tha