People blamed for water woes in West

[Saguaro]

WASHINGTON - Human activity such as driving and powering air conditioners is responsible for up to 60 percent of changes contributing to dwindling water supplies in the arid and growing West, a new study finds.

Those changes are likely to accelerate, says the study published Thursday in Science magazine, portending "a coming crisis in water supply for the western United States."

The study is likely to add to urgent calls for action already coming from Western states competing for the precious resource to irrigate farms and quench the thirst of growing populations. Devastating wildfires, avalanches and drought have also underscored the need.

Researchers led by climate expert Tim P. Barnett at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography at the University of California, San Diego, studied climate changes in the West between 1950-1999. They noted that winter precipitation falls increasingly as rain rather than snow, snow melts faster, river flows decrease in summer months, and overall warming is exacerbating dry summer conditions.

The researchers used statistical modeling to compare climate changes that would have happened with natural fluctuations over time, to climate changes with the addition of human-caused greenhouse gases and other emissions from vehicles, power plants and other sources.

They found that most changes in river flow, temperature and snow pack between 1950 and 1999 can be attributed to human activities, such as driving, that release emissions including carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

The changes they observed differed significantly from trends that could be attributed to natural fluctuations between wet and dry periods over time, they said.

"The climate's changing in the West. We've known that. The question is why, and no one's really addressed that," Barnett said in an interview. According to his study, "The answer is it is us."

"The picture painted is quite grim so it's time to collectively sit down and get our act together," Barnett added, suggesting the need for conservation, more water storage, and a slowdown on development in the desert Southwest.

"The building is just going crazy, so it would be a pretty good idea to put a curb on that unless they can figure out how to get more water," he said.

The study also included researchers from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, the University of Washington, Seattle, and the National Institute for Environmental Studies in Japan.

"Our results are not good news for those living in the western United States," they conclude. The research "foretells of water shortages, lack of storage capability to meet seasonally changing river flow, transfers of water from agricultural to urban uses and other critical impacts."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080131/ap_on_sc/climate_change_western_water;_ylt=AmGgiK_NEy.ZAyiG KdQ.eTes0NUE

[April15]

The western states have known about water shortages for years. The republicans have just thumbed their noses at us because we are democrats. The federal water project flushes water out to the kesterson refuge to kill wildlife instead of reclaim it for drinking water.

[cassandra]

There are so many restrictions on water rights out here. I cannot believe that it is humans. :roll This kind of crap drives me batty

[issac the dragon]

They'd have more water in California if they quit watering their driveways, washing their cars every day, quit growing grass, and emptied their pools. None of which is nessary to life. Whose idea was it to grow things in a desert anyway?

[cassandra]

Issac I can agree with you on water sidewalks and washing cars. Outside of that I cannot. People have to be able to live out here. I would not have my children running around my yard in gravel.

The problem with water in the west is overregulation not use.

[April15]

The bearu of water reclamation determines who gets how much of whos water. Agriculture still gets far more water than municipalities. Farmers are not required to use the water wisely, they can fllod irrigate or sprinke irrigate. They can even sell execess water to cities if they choose.And they choose to grow crops that have the highest demands of water, cotton, corn, rice than others like fruits or nuts.

[Oceanbreeze]

They'd have more water in California if they quit watering their driveways, washing their cars every day, quit growing grass, and emptied their pools. None of which is nessary to life. Whose idea was it to grow things in a desert anyway?

Issac; I am going to sound like a broken record. I have lived in MI, OK, NY, SC, WA, VA, GA, and now AZ. Everywhere we have lived we have always had some sort of water restriction. BUT, in AZ, we have strict water restriction which we abide by, BUT, my neighbors don't. Fortunately, the military post is going to gravel. The desert is a desert, grass is NOT meant to live in the desert. The transplants are the ones that brought their plants and what not to the desert. It's quite frustrating. But, I will be moving to NC in June '08 so I'm sure we'll have our own problems there. I am not cut out to be a true desert rat.

Interest tidbit..did you know that cotton grows in AZ?

[Saguaro]

I agree with you 100% OB, Az is not meant to have grass anywhere

[Saguaro]

Let me rephrase that , a lot of AZ is NOT meant to be green

[Oceanbreeze]

Let me rephrase that , a lot of AZ is NOT meant to be green

I agree. The majority of grass is in residental or commerce/hotel areas.


http://www.arizhwys.com/static/index.cfm?action=group&contentID=944
http://www.arizhwys.com/

[Oceanbreeze]

Grass-to-Xeriscape Landscape Rebate

http://www.cityofmesa.org/utilities/conservation/grass-to-xeriscape-rebate.aspx

[GreenEyedLady]

I know that in So. CA people have been encouraged for awhile to plant with drought resistant vegetation. That isn't going to help much when there are so many people living there now. It's so over crowded..way too many people..at least in So. CA.

[Oceanbreeze]

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004986.html

Arizona 5,939,292
California 36,132,147

Los Angelos population is the same as the entire state of Arizona.

[Oceanbreeze]

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004986.html

Arizona 5,939,292
California 36,132,147

So. CA population is the same as the entire state of Arizona.

[GreenEyedLady]

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004986.html

Arizona 5,939,292
California 36,132,147

So. CA population is the same as the entire state of Arizona.

Yeah...way too many people in So. CA.

I have visited Arizona for many years. My mother's family lives there. I think the desert has it's own beauty.

[Oceanbreeze]

Sunny, I agree, but AZ needs to return to being a desert. I had high hopes of allergies subsiding when we moved here in June 2006...my allergies are worse in AZ than anywhere I've ever lived.

[GreenEyedLady]

Sunny, I agree, but AZ needs to return to being a desert. I had high hopes of allergies subsiding when we moved here in June 2006...my allergies are worse in AZ than anywhere I've ever lived.

I agree...it should return to being a desert.

[toxic]

Issac; I am going to sound like a broken record. I have lived in MI, OK, NY, SC, WA, VA, GA, and now AZ. Everywhere we have lived we have always had some sort of water restriction. BUT, in AZ, we have strict water restriction which we abide by, ...


The problem is too God Damn many people.

It makes me puke when I hear people (Religious Right or Immigration Supporters) support rapid increases in population. Their simplistic view is there isn't a house on every 1/4 arce of land in America.

In reality, it takes a tremendious amount of land and ocean to feed and disperse waste of every pissing-shitting-trashing individual.

When will all wake up?????????????????

http://www.fairus.org/images/content/pagebuilder/10408.gif

[GreenEyedLady]

The problem is too God Damn many people.

It makes me puke when I hear people (Religious Right or Immigration Supporters) support rapid increases in population. Their simplistic view is there isn't a house on every 1/4 arce of land in America.

In reality, it takes a tremendious amount of land and ocean to feed and disperse waste of every pissing-shitting-trashing individual.

When will all wake up?????????????????

http://www.fairus.org/images/content/pagebuilder/10408.gif
So what is your solution? Allow only one child per family as in China?

[toxic]

So what is your solution? Allow only one child per family as in China?

That is acceptable solution to me ... maybe even two would work.

What is your plan ... continue to breed and import children till we are living like maggots?

[GreenEyedLady]

That is acceptable solution to me ... maybe even two would work.

What is your plan ... continue to breed and import children till we are living like maggots?

I didn't have a plan. I just like to find out when someone makes a statement that they are unhappy with something if they have thought of acceptable ways to combat the problem.

Personally I don't have a problem with limiting children. The people that seem to have the most are the ones that can least afford them. I also work with some families that have lower functioning parents. What do I see in this case? I see parents that can barely take care of themselves..how will they take proper care of their children? If it was up to me..I'd say don't let them have children...but it's not up to me...I don't have that kind of power.

[Oceanbreeze]

As for saving the earth, I agree with Toxic and Sunny.
(minus the maggot reference, Toxic. :lmao)

[GreenEyedLady]

As for saving the earth, I agree with Toxic and Sunny.
(minus the maggot reference, Toxic. :lmao)

Maggots are quite useful when having wounds that need to be cleaned...don't knock em. :lmao

[Trueblue]

We can't tell people how many kids to have. Education is the solution in this, not a mandate.

[toxic]

I didn't have a plan. I just like to find out when someone makes a statement that they are unhappy with something if they have thought of acceptable ways to combat the problem.

Personally I don't have a problem with limiting children. The people that seem to have the most are the ones that can least afford them. I also work with some families that have lower functioning parents. What do I see in this case? I see parents that can barely take care of themselves..how will they take proper care of their children? If it was up to me..I'd say don't let them have children...but it's not up to me...I don't have that kind of power.


This is a democracy. We have all the power.

Family Planning is much more palletable than torture.

Yet, most women are controlled by their own hormones rather than their brain.

I think the wealthy of our country are more than happy to watch as the general public breed themselves into Chinese style peasanthood.

[GreenEyedLady]

We can't tell people how many kids to have. Education is the solution in this, not a mandate.

Education about where babies come from or a higher education?

[GreenEyedLady]

This is a democracy. We have all the power.

Yet, most women are controlled by their own hormones rather than their brain.

I'm all for the man taking the responsibility of preventing pregnancy and be the one using birth control..since it's usually them that can't keep it in their pants. :D

[toxic]

I'm all for the man taking the responsibility of preventing pregnancy and be the one using birth control..since it's usually them that can't keep it in their pants. :D

We both know who wants to screw (men) and who most often wants to have babies (women).

I do not ignore what I believe to be a minority of men that have a narcissistic goal of reproducing another one of themselves. I also believe these are morons same morons that eventually cannot stand to be around their breeding partner or the resultant offspring(s).

Perhaps I'll never see the day that democracy results in rational behavior.

[Trueblue]

This is a democracy. We have all the power.

Family Planning is much more palletable than torture.

Yet, most women are controlled by their own hormones rather than their brain.

I think the wealthy of our country are more than happy to watch as the general public breed themselves into Chinese style peasanthood.

I am amazed at how chauvinistic you are.

Education about where babies come from or a higher education?

Both.

I'm all for the man taking the responsibility of preventing pregnancy and be the one using birth control..since it's usually them that can't keep it in their pants. :D

We both know who wants to screw (men) and who most often wants to have babies (women).

I do not ignore what I believe to be a minority of men that have a narcissistic goal of reproducing another one of themselves. I also believe these are morons same morons that eventually cannot stand to be around their breeding partner or the resultant offspring(s).

Perhaps I'll never see the day that democracy results in rational behavior.

You repeat truisms from the fifties as if it was truth.

[Oceanbreeze]

Trueblue; Odd thing, I agree with Toxic. :shrug

But, I think the thread turned when we were talking about population using up our water supply. I was actually talking about the desert being turned into a grassland for transplants, thus using up the water supply. I believe the rebate program is a good way to combat this problem.

http://www.cityofmesa.org/utilities/conservation/grass-to-xeriscape-rebate.aspx

[GreenEyedLady]

Trueblue; Odd thing, I agree with Toxic. :shrug

But, I think the thread turned when we were talking about population using up our water supply. I was actually talking about the desert being turned into a grassland for transplants, thus using up the water supply. I believe the rebate program is a good way to combat this problem.

You are correct, Oceanbreeze, and I apologize to you for getting off topic.

The rebate program for toilets and such? I did replace my two toilets when I was in CA, and got the rebate which almost paid for the new toilets.

[Trueblue]

Trueblue; Odd thing, I agree with Toxic. :shrug

But, I think the thread turned when we were talking about population using up our water supply. I was actually talking about the desert being turned into a grassland for transplants, thus using up the water supply. I believe the rebate program is a good way to combat this problem.

About which? How dumb women are, that they are controlled by their hormones? Please say that's not it.

[GreenEyedLady]

About which? How dumb women are, that they are controlled by their hormones? Please say that's not it.

How about starting a new topic about women and their hormones...and men and theirs?

Sorry for the brief interruption, Oceanbreeze.

This topic is back on track....rebates!!!

[Oceanbreeze]

Yes, I think the rebate program will help.
Why not use synthetic grass? http://www.x-grass.com/nevada-synthetic-grass.php

Grass does not belong in the desert.

A perfect example is the soldier in Iraq who planted grass.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/soldier_cutting_grass_found/

[toxic]

I am amazed at how chauvinistic you are. ...

You repeat truisms from the fifties as if it was truth.


I prefer the term "realistic" to chauvinistic. The postings on this forum been my greatest trainer, about what women care about.

I was born in the Fifties, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. I think everyone in the Fifties though America's resources were unlimited. Could you mean the Sixties/Seventies? You'll have to help me.

[Trueblue]

How about starting a new topic about women and their hormones...and men and theirs?

Sorry for the brief interruption, Oceanbreeze.

This topic is back on track....rebates!!!

Yes, I think the rebate program will help.
Why not use synthetic grass? http://www.x-grass.com/nevada-synthetic-grass.php

Grass does not belong in the desert.

A perfect example is the soldier in Iraq who planted grass.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/soldier_cutting_grass_found/

Sorry for the diversion.

I prefer the term "realistic" to chauvinistic. The postings on this forum been my greatest trainer, about what women care about.

I was born in the Fifties, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. I think everyone in the Fifties though America's resources were unlimited. Could you mean the Sixties/Seventies? You'll have to help me.

I'm sure that you prefer that term, but I don't feel it's as accurate.

We've been requested to get back on topic.

Rebates and other tax incentives to change behavior are often good ideas, IMO.

[toxic]

...Grass does not belong in the desert. ...


Actually I'd sure hate to live without grass, trees and creeks/rivers/ocean.

Perhaps "People" don't belong in the desert. :)

[Oceanbreeze]

Actually I'd sure hate to live without grass, trees and creeks/rivers/ocean.

Perhaps "People" don't belong in the desert. :)

Spot on. :thumbsup

[Trueblue]

I love the desert, too.

[Trueblue]

Toxic, have you ever read Edward Abbey's books?

[Oceanbreeze]

TB; thank you for the introduction to Edward Abbey. :)

http://www.abbeyweb.net/introduction.html

[toxic]

... Rebates and other tax incentives to change behavior are often good ideas, IMO.

Tax incentives?

So, for example, if Bush or Democrats proposed a "Stimulus Bill" that gave an extra $300 rebate for every child, you would agree that is an incentive for people to breed?

Yes, I think that is what you are saying. The more tax incentives that we give for a particular behavior, the more people will adapt to include that behavior.

Like salivating dogs.

I think free market pricing would dis-incentivize water. Instead of forcing drought restrictions, we should just raise the price. As the price of a shower approaches the cost to do it with bottled water ($30), the less incentive people will have to bath.

Instead businesses get discounted water and residential customers get new laws not to wash their car or driveway.

[Trueblue]

Tax incentives?

So, for example, if Bush or Democrats proposed a "Stimulus Bill" that gave an extra $300 rebate for every child, you would agree that is an incentive for people to breed?

Yes, I think that is what you are saying. The more tax incentives that we give for a particular behavior, the more people will adapt to include that behavior.

Like salivating dogs.

I think free market pricing would dis-incentivize water. Instead of forcing drought restrictions, we should just raise the price. As the price of a shower approaches the cost to do it with bottled water ($30), the less incentive people will have to bath.

Instead businesses get discounted water and residential customers get new laws not to wash their car or driveway.

Yeah, actually, I think that tax deductions for kids are okay. :shrug Nobody has a kid so they can get $300, and we do need another generation.

OB, I saw him speak many years ago, and he writes good books. :heart

[toxic]

Yeah, actually, I think that tax deductions for kids are okay. :shrug Nobody has a kid so they can get $300, and we do need another generation. ...


You mean, so those responsible people without children can pay for those who are irresponsible. Just like they do for schools and business susidized day care??????

That is the mindset that must change for people to survive at their present standard of living.

Believe me I saw dustbowls like Tucson and El Paso decades ago. Those hellholes, as they were 30 years ago, may be the norm of the future.

Things have improved for a long time now. I'm baffled why people would want to return to the past. Maybe they just don't realize what it would be like.

[Trueblue]

You mean, so those responsible people without children can pay for those who are irresponsible. Just like they do for schools and business susidized day care??????

That is the mindset that must change for people to survive at their present standard of living.

Believe me I saw dustbowls like Tucson and El Paso decades ago. Those hellholes, as they were 30 years ago, may be the norm of the future.

Things have improved for a long time now. I'm baffled why people would want to return to the past. Maybe they just don't realize what it would be like.

I don't think that those who have children are necessarily irresponsible. I have raised my kids to be a net gain for society, and that's what most people do.

[Oceanbreeze]

I don't think that those who have children are necessarily irresponsible. I have raised my kids to be a net gain for society, and that's what most people do.

:paclap :paclap :paclap

[April15]

A guy name of Mulholland figured the americans would make the dessert of California a city.