Be Happy, Not Gay?

[McLovin]

http://www.chicagopride.com/news/article.cfm/articleid/5211169

Naperville, IL — A federal judge has once again ruled that a Neuqua Valley High School student cannot wear an anti-gay shirt to school that reads "Be Happy, Not Gay."

U.S. District Judge William Hart declined to issue a temporary injunction that would have ordered school officials to allow sophomore Alexander Nuxoll to wear the shirt this April as a protest to the National "Day of Silence" when students wear T-shirts, buttons and stickers showing support of gay students.

Nuxoll is one of two students who were told by their Naperville school that the t-shirt is discriminatory. Nuxoll and Heidi Zamecnik had tried to wear the shirts in 2006.

According to the federal lawsuit Zamecnik filed against Indian Prairie District 204 board and administrators, she was told she had to remove the shirt or leave school because some students and staff found it offensive.

Last year the Alliance Defense Fund, a law firm that represents conservative Christians, sought an injunction barring the school from taking action against them for wearing the t-shirts.

At that time a federal judge ruled that the school had the right to dictate a dress code.

"The (school) board and school administrators have engaged in a considerable effort to create a positive and tolerant school environment with an emphasis on respectful attitudes and discourse," Federal Judge William T. Hart said in April.

[issac the dragon]

I wonder if the parents of the two kids want the school to become an armed camp?

[Sweet Tart]

PC vs. Freedom of Speech

Interesting.

[patriotsblade]

Considering that a person does not "choose" to be gay the t-shirt is offensive. It would be like wearing a shirt that says "don't be black". It implies that there is something wrong with being gay, and by so, encourages discrimination.

[McLovin]

PC vs. Freedom of Speech

Interesting.

Bingo.

[MW]

PC vs. Freedom of Speech

Interesting.

Very.

I wonder if the school allows a t-shirt that supports pot for medicine use?

a T-shirt that supports Paganism? Allow Pentacle wearing?

How about "Support the Second Amendment" items? (try that one and kiddo will be suspended!!)

Or does the school pick and choose what they silently support? :think

What about those who are offended by the Gay Pride t-shirts? What about their rights?

This will be interesting to watch . . .

[patriotsblade]

Very.

I wonder if the school allows a t-shirt that supports pot for medicine use?


a T-shirt that supports Paganism? Allow Pentacle wearing?

How about "Support the Second Amendment" items? (try that one and kiddo will be suspended!!)


Or does the school pick and choose what they silently support? :think

What about those who are offended by the Gay Pride t-shirts? What about their rights?


This will be interesting to watch . . .

1. Political speech = protected.
2. Not in a school, seperation of church and state. (And I am a pentacle wearing pagan btw.)
3. Political speech = protected.
4. What in the world could possibly be offensive about a Gay Pride T-shirt?

[MW]

1. Political speech = protected.
2. Not in a school, seperation of church and state. (And I am a pentacle wearing pagan btw.)
3. Political speech = protected.
4. What in the world could possibly be offensive about a Gay Pride T-shirt?

How about wearing a 2nd amendment shirt?

School allows the wearing of a cross, so it's not entirely separated, is it?

Indigo wore her pentacle her entire sr. year and was told weekly that she was going to hell by classmates.

[April15]

I am a straight man who has a gay old time in life.

[patriotsblade]

How about wearing a 2nd amendment shirt?

School allows the wearing of a cross, so it's not entirely separated, is it?

Indigo wore her pentacle her entire sr. year and was told weekly that she was going to hell by classmates.

Sorry if I wasn't clear before.

A 2nd amendment shirt (pro or con) should certainly be allowed as it is protected political speech.

The way I see it, all religous items, text etc. should be left at the door of a public (tax payer funded) school. That means all crosses, crucifixes, Stars of David, pentacles etc. This is called seperating church and state.

The treatment Indigo received from her classmates is a good argument for keeping church and state seperate.

[AYFR]

Sorry if I wasn't clear before.

A 2nd amendment shirt (pro or con) should certainly be allowed as it is protected political speech.

The way I see it, all religous items, text etc. should be left at the door of a public (tax payer funded) school. That means all crosses, crucifixes, Stars of David, pentacles etc. This is called seperating church and state.

The treatment Indigo received from her classmates is a good argument for keeping church and state seperate.
When does seperation of Church ans state (which is not in the Constitution) override freedom of speech and freedom religious expresion?
I am not calling for school led prayers but at what point do you stop but each persons individual freedoms.

[MW]

A 2nd amendment shirt (pro or con) should certainly be allowed as it is protected political speech.

But it falls under the zero tolerance for weapons.

[McLovin]

But the biggest problem is this is high school. The officials don't give two shits about a child's freedom of speech. :rofl Unless things have changed that much since I was in high school. :para

[patriotsblade]

But it falls under the zero tolerance for weapons.

It's ridiculous then.

[BartonX]

When does seperation of Church ans state (which is not in the Constitution) override freedom of speech and freedom religious expresion?
I am not calling for school led prayers but at what point do you stop but each persons individual freedoms.

The Prayer called "The Lords Prayer", should be mandatory as well as the pledge of alliegence for opening excercises. Any failing to do so should be shot on the spot and the trash men called to pick up the trash. Bullets for those neutral Americans monitoring the classrooms should be provided at public expense. "Keep America Clean Get rid of the undesireable secularists".

[Sweet Tart]

So, you would have those who don't believe in a Christian God defame your prayer for fear of being shot? Interesting :lol

[Oceanbreeze]

Aren't you a kindred spirit.

[cassandra]

The Prayer called "The Lords Prayer", should be mandatory as well as the pledge of alliegence for opening excercises. Any failing to do so should be shot on the spot and the trash men called to pick up the trash. Bullets for those neutral Americans monitoring the classrooms should be provided at public expense. "Keep America Clean Get rid of the undesireable secularists".

While you are at it join a cult or two. Sounds like quite the idea. :cuckoo

I don't believe prayer should be mandatory even for Christians. People should pray to God when they feel inclined and of a open heart.

Furthermore, if it were mandatory otherwise you would be shot then people would be praying for all the wrong reasons. You cannot make people something by submission. Just ask Hitler.

[BartonX]

So, you would have those who don't believe in a Christian God defame your prayer for fear of being shot? Interesting :lol

That is an interesting point but I doubt that "Defame" is the appropriate conclusion. I mean I have no problem accepting it but scientific tests have proven that there is a tangible and proveable power in prayer, even when the prayer is performed by avowed secularists or atheists.

The Christian God, is also the God of Israel, and this God is God. All others are horse shit or worse???

Yes, shooting them would provide the attention span that would reinforce the seriousness of prayer and as an unavoidable benefit it would rid the earth of excess baggage. :)

[cassandra]

Yes, shooting them would provide the attention span that would reinforce the seriousness of prayer and as an unavoidable benefit it would rid the earth of excess baggage. :)

:faint I cannot believe I am walking the Earth with a person who can believe this.

[BartonX]

While you are at it join a cult or two. Sounds like quite the idea. :cuckoo

I don't believe prayer should be mandatory even for Christians. People should pray to God when they feel inclined and of a open heart.

Furthermore, if it were mandatory otherwise you would be shot then people would be praying for all the wrong reasons. You cannot make people something by submission. Just ask Hitler.

Cassandra, you have been sleeping in class again! We have given people the chance to pray voluntarily for hundreds of years and........well they just don't get around to it. So if we remove that option everyone will be praying whether they want to or not and before long frowns will be replaced with smiles and gratitude will replace despair.

How do I know this to be a fact? That is the easy part. Once a couple are shot and hauled off by the trash man others will get hip quick that this is serious business and it means something to someone and I am not going to die to appease some secularists views. The gratitude comes in when they get to the Amen part and are still alive. That is where the smile comes in as they think............"There is power in prayer....whew....Thank God!" :rofl

And don't forget they have forced a Christian Nation submit to secular doctrines...........................think about it!!!

[Sweet Tart]

That is an interesting point but I doubt that "Defame" is the appropriate conclusion. I mean I have no problem accepting it but scientific tests have proven that there is a tangible and proveable power in prayer, even when the prayer is performed by avowed secularists or atheists.

The Christian God, is also the God of Israel, and this God is God. All others are horse shit or worse???

Yes, shooting them would provide the attention span that would reinforce the seriousness of prayer and as an unavoidable benefit it would rid the earth of excess baggage. :)

I actually agree with you to an extent (that's #3 :faint) about the power of prayer. I just don't agree with forcing a faith upon others.

And it would be defaming because I know if I was forced to recite The Lord's Prayer, which I have memorized, FYI, I'd change all the words I didn't agree with and come up with funner ones.

"Funner" was intentional, grammar freaks :para

[Semantics]

I actually agree with you to an extent (that's #3 :faint) about the power of prayer. I just don't agree with forcing a faith upon others.

And it would be defaming because I know if I was forced to recite The Lord's Prayer, which I have memorized, FYI, I'd change all the words I didn't agree with and come up with funner ones.

"Funner" was intentional, grammar freaks :para

Don't you mean "more funner ones". :toetap

:snicker

[Yellowdogtexan]

Cassandra, you have been sleeping in class again! We have given people the chance to pray voluntarily for hundreds of years and........well they just don't get around to it. So if we remove that option everyone will be praying whether they want to or not and before long frowns will be replaced with smiles and gratitude will replace despair.What an ignorant post. What part of the First Amendment and the separation of church and state do you not get. Whether you like it or not, the concept of separation of church and state is now part of the Constituion as noted by many decisions of the SCOTUS that have incorporated such concept of a wall of separation of church and state. See. ENGEL v. VITALE http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=370&page=421#422The petitioners contend among other things that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that in this country it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.
It is a matter of history that this very practice of establishing governmentally composed prayers for religious services was one of the reasons which caused many of our early colonists to leave England and seek religious freedom in America. One can not force prayer on anyone nor should we as a society consider this. The FIRST AMENDMENT has worked well and should not be abandoned just because some idiots do not understand it.

[Sweet Tart]

Well, hell, I sure did :lmao

[AYFR]

Cassandra, you have been sleeping in class again! We have given people the chance to pray voluntarily for hundreds of years and........well they just don't get around to it. So if we remove that option everyone will be praying whether they want to or not and before long frowns will be replaced with smiles and gratitude will replace despair.

How do I know this to be a fact? That is the easy part. Once a couple are shot and hauled off by the trash man others will get hip quick that this is serious business and it means something to someone and I am not going to die to appease some secularists views. The gratitude comes in when they get to the Amen part and are still alive. That is where the smile comes in as they think............"There is power in prayer....whew....Thank God!" :rofl

And don't forget they have forced a Christian Nation submit to secular doctrines...........................think about it!!!
Please point to a spot in the Bible where it says that we should be made to pray.
God wants us to pray but he wants us to do it of our own free will not because we ave to do it.
Forced prayer has no power.
Again you miss the point so I will help you.

Ephesians 4:15
15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
Force is not love.

Also

2 Corinthians 9:7
7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

You also have to remember that you must first love GOd before you can truly pray to him
1 John 4:19
19We love because he first loved us.

[BartonX]

Please point to a spot in the Bible where it says that we should be made to pray.
God wants us to pray but he wants us to do it of our own free will not because we ave to do it.
Forced prayer has no power.
Again you miss the point so I will help you.

Force is not love.

Also
.

You also have to remember that you must first love GOd before you can truly pray to him

Please point to a spot in the Bible where it says that we should be made to pray.

OK........I'm pointing at it! Hurry up. :)

You also have to remember that you must first love GOd before you can truly pray to him

Do you ever think before you write? If that were true sinners would be banned from heaven and eternal life that follows heaven. :LL

[BartonX]

I actually agree with you to an extent (that's #3 :faint) about the power of prayer. I just don't agree with forcing a faith upon others.

And it would be defaming because I know if I was forced to recite The Lord's Prayer, which I have memorized, FYI, I'd change all the words I didn't agree with and come up with funner ones.

"Funner" was intentional, grammar freaks :para

Not if you were afraid the neutral class assassin would shoot you if you snickered in the wrong place of the recital. :)

[Sweet Tart]

Sure I would :para

[BartonX]

What an ignorant post. What part of the First Amendment and the separation of church and state do you not get. Whether you like it or not, the concept of separation of church and state is now part of the Constituion as noted by many decisions of the SCOTUS that have incorporated such concept of a wall of separation of church and state. See. ENGEL v. VITALE http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=370&page=421#422One can not force prayer on anyone nor should we as a society consider this. The FIRST AMENDMENT has worked well and should not be abandoned just because some idiots do not understand it.

There is no seperation of church and state anywhere in the Constitution dingbat! The so called clause you are refering to forbids Congress from making a law prohibiting Christianity and the free excercise thereof.

[April15]

Not if you were afraid the neutral class assassin would shoot you if you snickered in the wrong place of the recital. :)
Fear no man! Anarchy! Fuck the classles assassin. I kill him! He don't even need to snicker?

[BartonX]

What an ignorant post. What part of the First Amendment and the separation of church and state do you not get. Whether you like it or not, the concept of separation of church and state is now part of the Constituion as noted by many decisions of the SCOTUS that have incorporated such concept of a wall of separation of church and state. See. ENGEL v. VITALE http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=370&page=421#422One can not force prayer on anyone nor should we as a society consider this. The FIRST AMENDMENT has worked well and should not be abandoned just because some idiots do not understand it.

There is no establishment clause only a mandate forbiding Government from determining any one Christian denomination over another as the official one as was the practice in Europe.

Think for a change and quit quoting morons to prove your baseless points. In conclusion, I am right and you are wrong....neh neh neh neh neh neh :rooster

[Yellowdogtexan]

There is no establishment clause only a mandate forbiding Government from determining any one Christian denomination over another as the official one as was the practice in Europe.Again your ignorance is amusing. Basic constiutional law is that the First Amendment on religion is compose two clauses (i) the exercise clause and (ii) the establishment clause. Your opinion on the establishment clause is so wrong that it is funny. I urge you to submit your claims to the SCOTUS as an amici brief because you should not deprive the clerks a chance at laughing at your stupidity.

[Yellowdogtexan]

There is no seperation of church and state anywhere in the Constitution dingbat! The so called clause you are refering to forbids Congress from making a law prohibiting Christianity and the free excercise thereof.We are all fortunate that your opinion on this issue is meaningless. No one cares what a homophobic, racist and ignorant layperson like you thinks about the constiution or the FIRST AMENDMENT. Opinions like the ones expressed by you on this thread are good examples of why it is illegal for ignorant laypersons to try to practice law.

[BartonX]

The FIRST AMENDMENT has worked well and should not be abandoned just because some idiots do not understand it.

Oh I couldn't agree with that statement more, however I seriously doubt you can comprehend it. The metaphor you insist on trying to use, out of context I might add, has nothing to do with your skewed assertions.

Surely, our Founding fathers had the mental acuity to include this metaphor had that meaning been their original intent, but they didn't. It was not their intent that it be included. Surely, if you were as competent as you would have us believe you would have noticed the Republican Jefferson, didn't include it. You have used the metaphor out of context and have tried to make us believe a lie. Obviously you do not comprehend basic Law, do you?:rooster

[BartonX]

We are all fortunate that your opinion on this issue is meaningless. No one cares what a homophobic, racist and ignorant layperson like you thinks about the constiution or the FIRST AMENDMENT. Opinions like the ones expressed by you on this thread are good examples of why it is illegal for ignorant laypersons to try to practice law.

Please explain the term "Pro Se" would you? Just my way of proving you are full of SHIT Are you upset that I am smarter and more informed than you are?

[Yellowdogtexan]

Please explain the term "Pro Se" would you? Just my way of proving you are full of SHIT Are you upset that I am smarter and more informed than you are?Pro Se is when a person represents himself. I know that you claimed to have represented yourself in some litigation but given your ignorance of the law it is clear that this claim is bullshit.

[Sofa King]

When does seperation of Church ans state (which is not in the Constitution) override freedom of speech and freedom religious expresion?
I am not calling for school led prayers but at what point do you stop but each persons individual freedoms.


The way I see it, all religous items, text etc. should be left at the door of a public (tax payer funded) school. That means all crosses, crucifixes, Stars of David, pentacles etc. This is called seperating church and state.

The treatment Indigo received from her classmates is a good argument for keeping church and state seperate.

Separation of church and state is not about eliminating (or leaving at the door) all signs and speach of religion! It's freedom OF religion and NOT freedom FROM religion.

The whole idea is that in this country we are FREE TO enjoy our religious symbols in public and NOT have to keep it private. It is one of my biggest irritations when this glorious freedom is distorted. The separation of church and state is about the government NOT mandating a religion or requiring anyone to follow a government mandated faith. Wearing a cross, Star of David, having a menorah or a Christmas tree, or expressing your religious beliefs in public tax funded schools IS what this country is all about.

But the biggest problem is this is high school. The officials don't give two shits about a child's freedom of speech. :rofl Unless things have changed that much since I was in high school. :para

Children's freedom of speech and expression in the public school should be upheld as long as it does't violate a dress code or other district rules. I think that there are controversial or offensive shirts that wouldn't be allowed in many work places as well. It's not a matter of law..it's a matter of appropriateness. If someone had a shirt that said "Screw Abstinence" It wouldn't be appropriate for school or work...but it's perfectly legal to wear to the mall or to a party. kwim?


This is a part of the legal precident quoted earlier.
...no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.
It is a matter of history that this very practice of establishing governmentally composed prayers for religious services was one of the reasons which caused many of our early colonists to leave England and seek religious freedom in America.



The key point here in this ruling is that the GOVERNMENT composed the prayer and then required American people to recite ...This is very important.

Separation of CHurch and state as it relates to public schools is that prayer required or composed by the government (ie: schools) should not be tolerated or required to be recited...BUT that does not exclude any prayer or expression or discussion of religions or religious symbols from the school HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE and to distort the "separation" is to pervert it and the reason the "law" was created.

[BartonX]

Again your ignorance is amusing. Basic constiutional law is that the First Amendment on religion is compose two clauses (i) the exercise clause and (ii) the establishment clause. Your opinion on the establishment clause is so wrong that it is funny. I urge you to submit your claims to the SCOTUS as an amici brief because you should not deprive the clerks a chance at laughing at your stupidity.

The so called establishment clause you keep parotting is a "Sanctions" clause more than an establishment clause since it only forbids the government from forming its own religion or designating any of the Christian denominations as the Official one. Of course the precise sanctions are not prescribed for violating the First Amendment but they are certainly implied.

It in no way excludes the tenents of Christianity from being proudly displayed in Federally funded Schools, public property or public assemblies lawfully assembled in public arenas.

The educated on the Supreme Court will to a man agree with me. Those who don't are not fit to sit on that court. As far as laughter I will have the last laugh because I know what I am talking about and you don't. That is very easy to prove.

If you learned what you are repeating from a college or University, get your money back you were robbed. By the way the USC is supreme not the SCOTUS, all they are are nine lawyers on a bench that didn't even have their own building until the fifties. They literally operated out of a closet. Did you know that? Check it out, I know you are benighted as far as American History is concerned.

[McLovin]

If you can't play nice please join me in the gay forum! :frolic

What will I dig up next? :think

[Sofa King]

If you can't play nice please join me in the gay forum! :frolic

What will I dig up next? :think

Ok, first do you mean me? :hide

Second, don't you mean if you can't play nice then DON'T join you in the gay forum? :think

[cassandra]

Cassandra, you have been sleeping in class again! We have given people the chance to pray voluntarily for hundreds of years and........well they just don't get around to it. So if we remove that option everyone will be praying whether they want to or not and before long frowns will be replaced with smiles and gratitude will replace despair.


What religion are you?????? Do you even for one moment wonder what Jesus would do? I am pretty sure he would allow people to live freely and to proclaim Him when ready.

Please point to a spot in the Bible where it says that we should be made to pray.
God wants us to pray but he wants us to do it of our own free will not because we ave to do it.
Forced prayer has no power.
Again you miss the point so I will help you.

Force is not love.

Also
.

You also have to remember that you must first love GOd before you can truly pray to him

Great post!

[Yellowdogtexan]

Please explain the term "Pro Se" would you? Just my way of proving you are full of SHIT Are you upset that I am smarter and more informed than you are?BTW, there is also a statement in the legal profession to the effect that A person who represents himself has a fool for a clientSince you claim to have represented yourself, then that means that you are a ______ (please fill in the blank).

[BartonX]

If you can't play nice please join me in the gay forum! :frolic

What will I dig up next? :think

Hey Lola, there's never a dull moment around me.

[BartonX]

BTW, there is also a statement in the legal profession to the effect that Since you claim to have represented yourself, then that means that you are a ______ (please fill in the blank).

Yes, that statement does circulate in the legal profession but it is trumped by:"If you want something done right..........do it yourself." And since God, (not trying to drop any names) said: "A fool says in his heart that there is no God."

By definition I am disqualified from the legal professions rhetoric. :)

Who in their right mind would trust a lawyer??? If you yawn they'll steal your teeth! How many teeth do you have left YDT? Shakespeare said it best: "The first thing we need to do is hang all of the lawyers".

[AYFR]

OK........I'm pointing at it! Hurry up. :)



Do you ever think before you write? If that were true sinners would be banned from heaven and eternal life that follows heaven. :LL

So you are saying that the Bible lies then?
It is clear the you have no understanding of the Bible or its meaning.

[McLovin]

Dull moments are usually overrated. :para

[BartonX]

What religion are you?????? Do you even for one moment wonder what Jesus would do? I am pretty sure he would allow people to live freely and to proclaim Him when ready.

I am a Realist, I use this title in order that Christians aren't blamed for me. It also affords me to bring out the deeper things that modern denominations are clueless about.

Do I think for one moment what Jesus would do? On that one Sandy, you have to take a good long look at Jesus. The New Testament person was the "Word" made flesh and "The Lamb of God". That is historically true.

In a little more than eight years he will not resemble that image, he is coming back to make war and kill people, and those that were raptured will be fighting with him. He will be the "Lion of Judah", in his second coming and he will never leave earth again. He will throw the False Prophet and the Beast into the lake of fire alive.

Currently, everyone is given the privilege of accepting him or rejecting him, just as the Jews were when he came the first time and on the very day the Prophet Daniel said he came and presented himself as the Pesach Lamb, and proclaimed himself to be Israels King. Now that was the problem since to be their King he had to be God, a name so sacred they can't even say it.

He also deliberately set himself in direct opposition to every belief system by presenting the absolute: "No Man comes to the Father, but by me." Muhammed didn't say that! Buddah didn't say that, Vishnu didn't say that, Krishna didn't say that..........only Jesus declared himself to be God. Now either he was exactly what he claimed to be or he was the greatest heritic that ever lived.

Examination of the facts proves he was precisely what he claimed. Hundreds of Prophecies were made about him and he fulfilled 100% of them.

So, in answer to the question I am sure he will be able to say: "Go ahead Punk, make my day! You wanna die or you wanna pray?"

[cassandra]

Currently, everyone is given the privilege of accepting him or rejecting him,

So, in answer to the question I am sure he will be able to say: "Go ahead Punk, make my day! You wanna die or you wanna pray?"

Currently everyone is given that privilege. At least you can agree to that point.

I just don't think that He will say that last part. :no And even if He did, don't you think that is up to Him not you?

[AYFR]

Being able to say and actually saying something are two totally different things.
God is love and since Jesus is God he is love as well, not our meager understinding of love but true unbounded, unconditional love.

Psst I am sure glad that God told you the exact time he was coming, oh wait he didn't, while he did say we would know the season he also said that the hour would be unknown.

[BartonX]

So you are saying that the Bible lies then?
It is clear the you have no understanding of the Bible or its meaning.


How did you come up with that?

[AYFR]

How did you come up with that?

Becasue I said

You also have to remember that you must first love GOd before you can truly pray to him
and you replied

Do you ever think before you write? If that were true sinners would be banned from heaven and eternal life that follows heaven. :LL

The Bible clearly says.
1 John 4:19
19We love because he first loved us.

Sincere prayer comes with love

Psalm 63:1-11
A psalm of David. When he was in the Desert of Judah.
1 O God, you are my God,
earnestly I seek you;
my soul thirsts for you,
my body longs for you,
in a dry and weary land
where there is no water.

2 I have seen you in the sanctuary
and beheld your power and your glory.

3 Because your love is better than life,
my lips will glorify you.

4 I will praise you as long as I live,
and in your name I will lift up my hands.

5 My soul will be satisfied as with the richest of foods;
with singing lips my mouth will praise you.

6 On my bed I remember you;
I think of you through the watches of the night.

7 Because you are my help,
I sing in the shadow of your wings.

8 My soul clings to you;
your right hand upholds me.

9 They who seek my life will be destroyed;
they will go down to the depths of the earth.

10 They will be given over to the sword
and become food for jackals.

11 But the king will rejoice in God;
all who swear by God's name will praise him,
while the mouths of liars will be silenced.

[BartonX]

Knock knock anybody home???? Loving God is in no way essential to successful prayer. God, takes us just like we are he doesn't want any sugared bullshit!

Sinners that come to God don't even know him all they know is they are a wreck and desperate for change.

The exception is Liberals, they think they are God and don't need shit!

[BartonX]

Becasue I said

and you replied


The Bible clearly says.


Sincere prayer comes with love

Psalm 63:1-11
A psalm of David. When he was in the Desert of Judah.
1 O God, you are my God,
earnestly I seek you;
my soul thirsts for you,
my body longs for you,
in a dry and weary land
where there is no water.

2 I have seen you in the sanctuary
and beheld your power and your glory.

3 Because your love is better than life,
my lips will glorify you.

4 I will praise you as long as I live,
and in your name I will lift up my hands.

5 My soul will be satisfied as with the richest of foods;
with singing lips my mouth will praise you.

6 On my bed I remember you;
I think of you through the watches of the night.

7 Because you are my help,
I sing in the shadow of your wings.

8 My soul clings to you;
your right hand upholds me.

9 They who seek my life will be destroyed;
they will go down to the depths of the earth.

10 They will be given over to the sword
and become food for jackals.

11 But the king will rejoice in God;
all who swear by God's name will praise him,
while the mouths of liars will be silenced.

That is precisely my point!!!!!!! You made it appear that people had to love God first before they could pray. You had it backwards according to me and the Bible.

[AYFR]

NO I said that they had to love God before the could TRULY pray.
Jesus said to pray like this
Our Father, Who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.
Before you can pray like that you must love him and know that he loves you.

[Sweet Tart]

I'm about to bust out my cheese cross again :para

[patriotsblade]

I am a Realist, I use this title in order that Christians aren't blamed for me. It also affords me to bring out the deeper things that modern denominations are clueless about.



There's a clue. :cuckoo

[McLovin]

Too much God in this thread. :gaah