Birth leave sought for girls in high school

[Oceanbreeze]

Birth leave sought for girls
Soon-to-be-moms at East High School ask for four weeks of maternity leave

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_7899096

[Incognito]

I think they're entitled to some sort of maternity leave from school. Granted, I wish that this wasn't even a problem, but it is. If my daughter was pregnant in HS, I would hope that she would get some sort of maternity leave so that she could spend time with her baby. :shrug

[Deadshot]

I'm ok with the leave, but they must complete the work missed to advance a grade and/or graduate. If this is a summer school type of thing to catch up fine. But I agree with the premise, they deserve the leave.

Ocean, why the frowny face on the thread?

[Partyless]

I'm torn on this.

On the one hand, giving birth is taxing on the body and you do need time to recover and bond with your baby. So medically speaking, yes, some form of maternity leave should be available to any new mother regardless of age.

On the other hand, I don't want to 'normalize' teen pregnany. Jamie Lynn Spears is doing that well enough herself - I read a post on US magazine's website where a 13 year old girl was heralding Jamie Lynn as her 'hero' and saying she wanted to have a baby with her boyfriend now. These teens/tweens are too influenced by celebutwits and the fact that it doesn't seem like a big deal to be sporting a baby at the Prom these days.

I don't think these young girls are thinking through their obligations and responsibilities fully and we as society are going to pay for that eventually some way or another.

[Oceanbreeze]

I'm torn on this.

On the one hand, giving birth is taxing on the body and you do need time to recover and bond with your baby. So medically speaking, yes, some form of maternity leave should be available to any new mother regardless of age.

On the other hand, I don't want to 'normalize' teen pregnany. Jamie Lynn Spears is doing that well enough herself - I read a post on US magazine's website where a 13 year old girl was heralding Jamie Lynn as her 'hero' and saying she wanted to have a baby with her boyfriend now. These teens/tweens are too influenced by celebutwits and the fact that it doesn't seem like a big deal to be sporting a baby at the Prom these days.

I don't think these young girls are thinking through their obligations and responsibilities fully and we as society are going to pay for that eventually some way or another.


My sentiments exactly, thus the reason for my frownie face Deadshot.

[Incognito]

Oh, I think that teen pregnancy is already normalized in today's society :( Shit happens, and anything that can go wrong, will go wrong, :blah :blah :blah

Hey...we could merge this iwth the thread on population control and set age limits on when you can have your one kid too!

[Deadshot]

Well they HAVE to have some type of leave. As the father of two daughters I NEVER want them to mimic or invoke the leave, but it needs to be there - frowny face or not.

[Incognito]

Well they HAVE to have some type of leave. As the father of two daughters I NEVER want them to mimic or invoke the leave, but it needs to be there - frowny face or not.

:tarty Word.

[Oceanbreeze]

Well they HAVE to have some type of leave. As the father of two daughters I NEVER want them to mimic or invoke the leave, but it needs to be there - frowny face or not.

They've never NEEDED leave before, why now? People feel entitlement to everything even though they have never earned it. :hulk

[issac the dragon]

Boys want sex and girls want babies. What are you going to do? Wish I had an answer. Give boys birth control pills? It works. They can't have sex.

[Oceanbreeze]

Boys want sex and girls want babies. What are you going to do? Wish I had an answer. Give boys birth control pills? It works. They can't have sex.

Girls wouldn't want babies if their parents loved them and spent time with them. I never wanted a baby until I was 25 years old.

[Incognito]

They've never NEEDED leave before, why now? People feel entitlement to everything even though they have never earned it. :hulk Who says they've never "needed" it before? They just were never offered it before. After birthing 4 children, I can guarantee you that I NEVER felt like being anywhere but at home the day after I was released from the hospital. It's mandatory that employers give new moms and dads time off if they request it...why can't we give our high school moms the same option?

Boys want sex and girls want babies. What are you going to do? Wish I had an answer. Give boys birth control pills? It works. They can't have sex. Hmm...I like that idea :yep

[issac the dragon]

As for the two threads having things in common. True. Every time a girl/woman has another boy/man in her life, she wants to give him a baby. Start at 14 and see how many kids she can have for how many men. Well, I saw a guy on tv who had 50 children by 49 women. And many of those women were giving a guy they loved a baby.

[sparks]

Why is it assumed that girls want babies and boys want sex? Maybe all the girl wanted was sex too...but got stuck with a baby cause the boy ditched!

[Oceanbreeze]

Who says they've never "needed" it before? They just were never offered it before. After birthing 4 children, I can guarantee you that I NEVER felt like being anywhere but at home the day after I was released from the hospital. It's mandatory that employers give new moms and dads time off if they request it...why can't we give our high school moms the same option?

Hmm...I like that idea :yep


Teens on maternity leave will backfire just like welfare.

[cassandra]

They've never NEEDED leave before, why now? People feel entitlement to everything even though they have never earned it. :hulk

Entitlement is a huge problem with our society. If they want to be effective Mother's they should drop. Otherwise they should make grown up decisions like not getting pregnant in the first place. It is not that hard to be careful and mindful of your life.

Girls wouldn't want babies if their parents loved them and spent time with them. I never wanted a baby until I was 25 years old.

I completely agree. Something is missing if a child feels the need to have a child.

Who says they've never "needed" it before? They just were never offered it before. After birthing 4 children, I can guarantee you that I NEVER felt like being anywhere but at home the day after I was released from the hospital. It's mandatory that employers give new moms and dads time off if they request it...why can't we give our high school moms the same option?

The rules of school are that you go or you don't graduate. I feel sorry for Suzie Do Right, she is going to class everyday and then this other Suzi Do Wrong gets the same diploma when she leaves. If she wants to take a semester off I am fine with that. I sure hope she wants to stay in school later though. When people leave their jobs for maternity leave they don't get paid. If these girls want this same benefit I guess they would have to suffer the consequence of not getting those credits.

[Oceanbreeze]

Entitlement is a huge problem with our society. If they want to be effective Mother's they should drop. Otherwise they should make grown up decisions like not getting pregnant in the first place. It is not that hard to be careful and mindful of your life.



I completely agree. Something is missing if a child feels the need to have a child.



The rules of school are that you go or you don't graduate. I feel sorry for Suzie Do Right, she is going to class everyday and then this other Suzi Do Wrong gets the same diploma when she leaves. If she wants to take a semester off I am fine with that. I sure hope she wants to stay in school later though. When people leave their jobs for maternity leave they don't get paid. If these girls want this same benefit I guess they would have to suffer the consequence of not getting those credits.

:paclap :paclap :paclap :paclap :paclap

[sparks]

When people leave their jobs for maternity leave they don't get paid.

A lot of places do have paid maternity leave...and if they don't there is always goverment sponsored unemployment pay.

[sparks]

The rules of school are that you go or you don't graduate. I feel sorry for Suzie Do Right, she is going to class everyday and then this other Suzi Do Wrong gets the same diploma when she leaves. If she wants to take a semester off I am fine with that. I sure hope she wants to stay in school later though.

If Suzie do wrong gets her diploma at the same time that Suzie do right does...she's worked especially hard for it with having a baby as well as keeping up with her studies.

[Oceanbreeze]

A lot of places do have paid maternity leave...and if they don't there is always goverment sponsored unemployment pay.

I had a friend in high school who got pregnant, had and kept the baby. Guess what? It was a family decision since she was a MINOR.

[sparks]

I had a friend in high school who got pregnant, had and kept the baby. Guess what? It was a family decision since she was a MINOR.


I had a friend who got pregnant in high school as well. Her parents (well to do and very prestigious in the area) forced her to have an abortion...and made her swear to NEVER tell anyone about it.

[cassandra]

If Suzie do wrong gets her diploma at the same time that Suzie do right does...she's worked especially hard for it with having a baby as well as keeping up with her studies.

So you are advocating that she take 4 weeks off and somehow complete her studies? I don't know how she would do that. I was in my 30's when my children were born and I am so glad that I didn't have anything else I needed to do because it is tiring!

[cassandra]

I had a friend who got pregnant in high school as well. Her parents (well to do and very prestigious in the area) forced her to have an abortion...and made her swear to NEVER tell anyone about it.

That is horrible. :( Honestly a sign of the times you grew up in.

I hope that this maternity leave is not a sign of the times my girls grew up in.

[Incognito]

I think it's very possible for someone to make up a few weeks of work. Hell, I had all of my kids while I was in college, and I still graduated :shrug

[sparks]

That is horrible. :( Honestly a sign of the times you grew up in.

I hope that this maternity leave is not a sign of the times my girls grew up in.

I agree. Back in the day girls who got pregnant in school usually dropped out. The school officials didn't want them there, thinking it would encourage other girls that it was acceptable behavior when indeed it wasn't.

The schools bending to accommodate pregnant teens may indeed be a sign of the current times. Teen pregnancy has always been a reality in our society...but back in the day girls were "sent off" somewhere...today's attitude is more out in the open. To that I say kudo's!

[Incognito]

I agree. Back in the day girls who got pregnant in school usually dropped out. The school officials didn't want them there, thinking it would encourage other girls that it was acceptable behavior when indeed it wasn't.

The schools bending to accommodate pregnant teens may indeed be a sign of the current times. Teen pregnancy has always been a reality in our society...but back in the day girls were "sent off" somewhere...today's attitude is more out in the open. To that I say kudo's!

Word! :akbar

[cassandra]

The schools bending to accommodate pregnant teens may indeed be a sign of the current times. Teen pregnancy has always been a reality in our society...but back in the day girls were "sent off" somewhere...today's attitude is more out in the open. To that I say kudo's!

So I assume you do not think that teen birth is on the rise?

[Oceanbreeze]

I agree. Back in the day girls who got pregnant in school usually dropped out. The school officials didn't want them there, thinking it would encourage other girls that it was acceptable behavior when indeed it wasn't.

The schools bending to accommodate pregnant teens may indeed be a sign of the current times. Teen pregnancy has always been a reality in our society...but back in the day girls were "sent off" somewhere...today's attitude is more out in the open. To that I say kudo's!


:sad :sad :sad

Thank you Jamie Spears for making the USA the Welfare state of the world. :sad

[sparks]

So I assume you do not think that teen birth is on the rise?


I don't really know if it is or not. Do you have stats comparing the 1970's to the current rate of pregnancy among teens?


Teen pregnancy has always existed though. No matter what time frame we're speaking about.

[cassandra]

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/legacy/humres/107cong/11-15-01/107-fi1.gif

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/legacy/humres/107cong/11-15-01/107-48final.htm

I couldn't find anything in my limmited amount of time that showed 60's to now, but this definitely shows that teen birth has increased.

[sparks]

I guess the schools need to reflect the times then. :shrug

[crazierthanever]

So shoot me for saying I believe very, very few teens are ready to give a baby a good start. And then there's the issue of the quality of the life the teen mom herself will have in addition to her child's.

If a teenager gets pregnant and chooses not to terminate the pregnancy I would hope she'd give adoption a lot of serious consideration.

I'm a liberal but I don't feel babies ought to be raising babies.

[cassandra]

So shoot me for saying I believe very, very few teens are ready to give a baby a good start. And then there's the issue of the quality of the life the teen mom herself will have in addition to her child's.

If a teenager gets pregnant and chooses not to terminate the pregnancy I would hope she'd give adoption a lot of serious consideration.

I'm a liberal but I don't feel babies ought to be raising babies.


I agree! I would say completely agree but I don't agree with abortion.

Hope nobody shoots us. :para

[Trueblue]

To the best of my knowledge, this is a no-brainer. Doctors will not release someone to go back to work the day they get out of the hospital after childbirth, as far as I know, this is a 504 issue. 504 is the part of the Americans with Disabilities Act. If somebody sues, my bet is that the school system will lose. They are entitled to leave, and to reasonable accommodations. The specialized programs they currently have in place are probably just as expensive, or more so.

In my system, girls get six weeks leave after a normal delivery and eight weeks after a C section. A homebound teacher comes to their house once or twice a week so they can keep up with their schoolwork. Then they must go back to school, unless there are medical complications.

Honestly, I do not see the problem. I want girls to delay parenthood, but our sex education program is complete crap, so obviously we aren't too serious about preventing pregnancy. :mad If they don't delay, then why are we complaining that they get a chance to bond with their kids??????

[Partyless]

I agree. Back in the day girls who got pregnant in school usually dropped out. The school officials didn't want them there, thinking it would encourage other girls that it was acceptable behavior when indeed it wasn't.

The schools bending to accommodate pregnant teens may indeed be a sign of the current times. Teen pregnancy has always been a reality in our society...but back in the day girls were "sent off" somewhere...today's attitude is more out in the open. To that I say kudo's!

I think we can find a happy medium between shunning or hiding pregnant girls versus the kudos and high fives for having a baby way too early in their lives.

A girl I knew got pregnant our senior year. She carried the baby to term and gave it up for adoption. Everyone knew this was her plan - she was open about it and the school worked with her about her doctor's appointments and ultimate delivery and time to recover. She wasn't shunned but she wasn't made some kind of Homecoming Queen as a role model for younger students either.

having a child is a tremendous responsibility not the latest trend d'jour based on whichever tween celebutwit got knocked up and made the cover of People magazine.

[sparks]

I think we can find a happy medium between shunning or hiding pregnant girls versus the kudos and high fives for having a baby way too early in their lives.

A girl I knew got pregnant our senior year. She carried the baby to term and gave it up for adoption. Everyone knew this was her plan - she was open about it and the school worked with her about her doctor's appointments and ultimate delivery and time to recover. She wasn't shunned but she wasn't made some kind of Homecoming Queen as a role model for younger students either.

having a child is a tremendous responsibility not the latest trend d'jour based on whichever tween celebutwit got knocked up and made the cover of People magazine.

Just to clarify...my kudo's wasn't for the teen girls having babies so young...it was for the school system addressing the problem openly instead of shunning the girls.

[sparks]

So shoot me for saying I believe very, very few teens are ready to give a baby a good start. And then there's the issue of the quality of the life the teen mom herself will have in addition to her child's.

If a teenager gets pregnant and chooses not to terminate the pregnancy I would hope she'd give adoption a lot of serious consideration.

I'm a liberal but I don't feel babies ought to be raising babies.

While it's certainly not the ideal, it happens. It's reality.

[Partyless]

Just to clarify...my kudo's wasn't for the teen girls having babies so young...it was for the school system addressing the problem openly instead of shunning the girls.

I knew that - my concern is making teen pregnancy so 'normal' and 'acceptable' at all levels - including schools. Hence my hope for a happy medium between the two extremes.

[cassandra]

A girl I knew got pregnant our senior year. She carried the baby to term and gave it up for adoption. Everyone knew this was her plan - she was open about it and the school worked with her about her doctor's appointments and ultimate delivery and time to recover. She wasn't shunned but she wasn't made some kind of Homecoming Queen as a role model for younger students either.

What a wonderful responsible thing for that girl to do. Unfortunately society doesn't have many kids like that. :kickcan

504 is the part of the Americans with Disabilities Act. How horrible that someone legislated and this is the case. :( A normal pregnancy should not be considered a disability. Sounds like a horrible loophole. :(

[Trueblue]

What a wonderful responsible thing for that girl to do. Unfortunately society doesn't have many kids like that. :kickcan

How horrible that someone legislated and this is the case. :( A normal pregnancy should not be considered a disability. Sounds like a horrible loophole. :(

Not at all. You are temporarily disabled after you give birth, even with a normal pregnancy. It's reality. Nobody went in and specified pregnancy that I know of, it's just the way it is.

[cassandra]

TB that really opened my eyes to some of the trickle down effects of the FMLA. :( How horrible. It is my opinion that using school resources to pay for these girls to have home bound tutors is a misuse of funds. I cannot find anything suggesting that it is a right under the 504, but it just feels all wrong to me.

I cannot stand how socialism is taking over this country little by little. :kickcan

[Trueblue]

TB that really opened my eyes to some of the trickle down effects of the FMLA. :( How horrible. It is my opinion that using school resources to pay for these girls to have home bound tutors is a misuse of funds. I cannot find anything suggesting that it is a right under the 504, but it just feels all wrong to me.

I cannot stand how socialism is taking over this country little by little. :kickcan

I do not believe this is an FMLA result, it's an ADA/504/IDEA/IDIEA result. Equal treatment under the law, equal access to public education and other public facilities. We offer free, appropriate public education to all children, regardless of their disability. There is no other logical outcome of offering FAPE but to make it available for six weeks or eight weeks to these girls.

This is not socialism, it's civil rights legislation.

[cassandra]

I do not believe this is an FMLA result, it's an ADA/504/IDEA/IDIEA result. Equal treatment under the law, equal access to public education and other public facilities. We offer free, appropriate public education to all children, regardless of their disability. There is no other logical outcome of offering FAPE but to make it available for six weeks or eight weeks to these girls.

This is not socialism, it's civil rights legislation.

:shrug Guess we all see the world a little differently. :shrug

[Trueblue]

I know that is true, when it comes to how to deal with this issue.

However, in my last post, I wasn't giving an opinion, I was telling you the law in this area. This is civil rights legislation.

[Oceanbreeze]

To the best of my knowledge, this is a no-brainer. Doctors will not release someone to go back to work the day they get out of the hospital after childbirth, as far as I know, this is a 504 issue. 504 is the part of the Americans with Disabilities Act. If somebody sues, my bet is that the school system will lose. They are entitled to leave, and to reasonable accommodations. The specialized programs they currently have in place are probably just as expensive, or more so.

In my system, girls get six weeks leave after a normal delivery and eight weeks after a C section. A homebound teacher comes to their house once or twice a week so they can keep up with their schoolwork. Then they must go back to school, unless there are medical complications.

Honestly, I do not see the problem. I want girls to delay parenthood, but our sex education program is complete crap, so obviously we aren't too serious about preventing pregnancy. :mad If they don't delay, then why are we complaining that they get a chance to bond with their kids??????

I can agree with that. But, isn't it the child's parents responsibility to teach them about preventing pregnancy?

[Trueblue]

I can agree with that. But, isn't it the child's parents responsibility to teach them about preventing pregnancy?

I considered it my responsibility, but I wanted the schools to back up the message. Teenagers aren't known for following every word uttered by their parents. And yes, it should start before they are teens, but it needs to continue into their teens, and to be reinforced by factual health information in the schools.

[crazierthanever]

While it's certainly not the ideal, it happens. It's reality.

I know. But there HAS to be a way to make it less 'the thing'. There just has to be.

Call me a dreamer if you want.

[sparks]

I know. But there HAS to be a way to make it less 'the thing'. There just has to be.

Call me a dreamer if you want.

I like people that dare to dream. :)

[crazierthanever]

I agree! I would say completely agree but I don't agree with abortion.

Hope nobody shoots us. :para

I understand having a personal problem with abortion and I respect that. I believe it MUST stay legal, available and affordable.

[Sofa King]

Ok....I'm totally baffled at this entire controversy. I just read this whole thread and THEN read the article.....I know I'm ack basswards. :snicker BUT all of this is over "being punished with unexcused absenses" WTF is that? BIG WHOOPIE DO? So it's "unexcused absense" That's just an empty term that doesn't mean anything....Nobody is saying they can't make up the work, nobody is saying they HAVE to be back on the day after their birth or even a week after. ALL they are saying is that it isn't "EXCUSED" ...for a record. If you go on a 2 week vacation with your kids during school, that is considered an "unexcused absense" in our district. Does that mean that nobody takes vacations during the school year? NO. But having that policy discourages it and makes it clear that it isn't "ok" with the school district. When you get back, you make up the work. It takes more time, you have to work harder to catch up, or in some cases get a tutor.....but it's not like you are expelled. Ok, maybe it goes in the infamous "permanent record" :roll But what's the consequence? none. :nope there isn't any. So having Mono and being out for 4 weeks is an excused absense, right? What's the difference? You still have to make up the work, blah blah blah...but it's oh so much different because your record shows it as "excused" by the school? WTF people?!

This who "maternity leave" request is just another step in the direction of society being afraid to offend anyone, or have anyone be worse off than another or in a worse situation that needs adjustment, and all of that points us closer and closer to socialism or worse.

But as far as an excused or unexcused leave....
It is all such a non-issue to me. I do have a lot of thoughts about not only teen pregnancy but other issues regarding public policies and having children...so i better peak for that other thread. :lol

[cassandra]

This who "maternity leave" request is just another step in the direction of society being afraid to offend anyone, or have anyone be worse off than another or in a worse situation that needs adjustment, and all of that points us closer and closer to socialism or worse.


Completely agree!

[Trueblue]

I don't see how civil rights legislation can be termed socialism, unless you think that is in the nature of our founding documents.

Civil rights legislation comes directly from our founding documents.

One or both of you, please explain how legislation that preserves equal rights without respect to disability is socialistic.

To be perfectly clear, this does not say that normal pregnancy is a disability. The recovery period after DELIVERY is a temporary disability, covered by a doctor's excuse.

I know. But there HAS to be a way to make it less 'the thing'. There just has to be.

Call me a dreamer if you want.

I completely agree. :woot

Ok....I'm totally baffled at this entire controversy. I just read this whole thread and THEN read the article.....I know I'm ack basswards. :snicker BUT all of this is over "being punished with unexcused absenses" WTF is that? BIG WHOOPIE DO? So it's "unexcused absense" That's just an empty term that doesn't mean anything....Nobody is saying they can't make up the work, nobody is saying they HAVE to be back on the day after their birth or even a week after. ALL they are saying is that it isn't "EXCUSED" ...for a record. If you go on a 2 week vacation with your kids during school, that is considered an "unexcused absense" in our district. Does that mean that nobody takes vacations during the school year? NO. But having that policy discourages it and makes it clear that it isn't "ok" with the school district. When you get back, you make up the work. It takes more time, you have to work harder to catch up, or in some cases get a tutor.....but it's not like you are expelled. Ok, maybe it goes in the infamous "permanent record" :roll But what's the consequence? none. :nope there isn't any. So having Mono and being out for 4 weeks is an excused absense, right? What's the difference? You still have to make up the work, blah blah blah...but it's oh so much different because your record shows it as "excused" by the school? WTF people?!

This who "maternity leave" request is just another step in the direction of society being afraid to offend anyone, or have anyone be worse off than another or in a worse situation that needs adjustment, and all of that points us closer and closer to socialism or worse.

But as far as an excused or unexcused leave....
It is all such a non-issue to me. I do have a lot of thoughts about not only teen pregnancy but other issues regarding public policies and having children...so i better peak for that other thread. :lol

It has absolute zero to do with offending somebody.

It has to do with making sure that people have equal access to publicly funded services.

If high school kids can miss four to eight weeks of instruction and still pass their high school courses, then there is no need for school at all. You are possibly thinking of younger children, and not kids in high school, taking more demanding courses. A child with mono would get homebound instruction, paid for by the district, in my state. No one with an unexcused absence would get homebound teaching, and I doubt they would be able to make up four weeks of work in high school if the absence was unexcused.

Also, that many unexcused absences are a reason all by themselves for failing a high school course, so your claim that it doesn't matter if the absences are excused or unexcused doesn't have a foundation, IMO. Absences do matter, when there are that many of them. You are probably talking about elementary school kids, and not high school students. And I am willing to bet that the kids' teachers in your district do not find a two week vacation during the school year "no big whoop".

[Oceanbreeze]

My husband bought me a new desktop for Christmas...karma...cuz my other one died yesterday. Point is that we got a free subscripton of People magazine with it. So, how wonderful they glamorize teen pregnancy on the coveri of it. :devil

Cassandra and Sofa; I agree with both of you completely.

[Deadshot]

No one is condoning teen pregnancy. Give them their 6 to 8 weeks off, as long as they make up the classes, let them move forward.

Of course if we taught better Sex-Ed in schools, allowed condoms and birth control to be spoken in schools, this really wouldn't be much of an issue.:deadshot

[cassandra]

No one is condoning teen pregnancy. Give them their 6 to 8 weeks off, as long as they make up the classes, let them move forward.

Of course if we taught better Sex-Ed in schools, allowed condoms and birth control to be spoken in schools, this really wouldn't be much of an issue.:deadshot

Well, screw personal responsibility.

TB I have a busy morning. Maybe this afternoon I will have time to explain my thinking to you. I don't know that it would inform you though so I am not sure it would be worth the time.

Not making a slight at you in the least, I just know that you are a very convicted woman and that you have lived your entire life believing that this is not socialistic in any respect.

[crazycase]

Dude I am totally going to get pregnant so that I can get 4 weeks off of school!! :word

:roll

I just wish guys would keep it in their pants and girls would stop giving in and having sex. Go to school and do your damn work and graduate. How hard is it to do that? I did it and am sure others did it too.

If they are going to have medical leave then I would say they need to make up the work in the summer. They shouldn't get perks by making it up during the school year and being able to move up a grade or graduate.

[Deadshot]

How is that screwing personal responsibility? If no one shows you how to do something, how do you learn? Show those kids the benefits of condoms and birth control and MAYBE they'll show some personal responsibility and not get preggers!

Now if you're talking about personal responsibilty in regards to sex, well Cassie grow up baby. I went to a Catholic School and by our Senior year of the 63 members of our class we had 50 who had had sex with 3 girls out of 33 who had gotten preggers. I've got two daughters but I'm not so naive to believe that each year of High School pushes the odds higher and higher that they'll have sex. All I can do is to tell them how it's a bad idea with consequences that they can't imagine. We will tell our girls about condoms and birth control, not because we want them to have sex. But because we want them to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their lives and actions.!:deadshot

[sparks]

I'm amazed that some of you all are looking at this 4-8 weeks as some sort of benefit or vacation time! For pete's sake, if a girl gives birth her whole life has changed. Why not cut her a bit of slack and realize that she's dealing with a whole lot what with the stress on her body, psyche, and grades to boot. Trying to hold it all together isn't an easy task! It's certainly more work than the student who hasn't given birth! Sheesh!

[Deadshot]

I'm amazed that some of you all are looking at this 4-8 weeks as some sort of benefit or vacation time! For pete's sake, if a girl gives birth her whole life has changed. Why not cut her a bit of slack and realize that she's dealing with a whole lot what with the stress on her body, psyche, and grades to boot. Trying to hold it all together isn't an easy task! It's certainly more work than the student who hasn't given birth! Sheesh!

BINGO! :clap

This isn't a reward, it's simply dealing with the crisis at hand in the best possible way. Do you really think girls will start to think "You know Mary got pregnant and had a baby and got 8 weeks off school!!! I'm going to do that to, that way I can get some time off. I'm going to ignore the tough times Mary's going through (dealing with a newborn; being considered a 'slut'; having her life put on hold -at best - ruined - at worst; and having more responsibility thrust upon her then some adults can handle!)"

I can just see the girls lining up now to get preggers for that 8 week vacation from school! :roll

[crazycase]

Then you shouldn't have sex if you can't handle the consequences. :shrug

[sparks]

Then you shouldn't have sex if you can't handle the consequences. :shrug

The consequences of sex isn't always pregnancy! But ya know...accidents happen. :shrug

[Deadshot]

Then you shouldn't have sex if you can't handle the consequences. :shrug

And our society is FILLED with examples of how that strategy works.

Look how we don't have a drug problem, because people know "you shouldn't do drugs if you can't handle the consequences."

Divorce is so low in the U.S., because people know "you shouldn't get married if you can't handle the consequences."

Breaking the law is unheard of in the U.S., because people know "you shouldn't break the law if you can't handle the consequences."

Every person that smokes, if too fat, too skinny, eating bad food, working a shitty job, etc. did something they shouldn't have and CAN NOT handle the consequences. But that doesn't mean you don't help them stop smoking, lose weight, gain weight, eat better or get a better job! If a teen get's preggers OF COURSE they fucked up! But they didn't kill someone and therefor shouldn't be punished for the rest of their lives for one bad mistake. America is the land of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th chance. That's a good thing. It allows us to learn from our mistakes and move forward.

I can be a divorced, former drug addict, battling a weight problem and still have a good life. Teenage pregnancy should not be the end of a life. Nor should it be rewarded. But we have to do SOMETHING to help these kids out. Simply telling them, "Well you knew this could happen if you had sex!" and then telling them they're screwed doesn't sound like a viable plan to me.:deadshot

[Sofa King]

I think my point was missed.

I don't think it's no big deal to take a vacation during the school year. I don't think new teen mothers should come to school after their birth. I DO think they need to be home. I don't think having mono should be unexcused.

If my kid has mono and is SICK, they wouldn't be able to concentrate on studies or learn anything even if they sent an instructor to the home at their expense. Same way that a new mother who needs to learn how to take care of an infant and herself and her body would.

They can miss school "unexcused" or "excused" for whatever the reason is ...and either way they need to make up the work before they can advance or graduate. MY point is that is doesn't MATTER A WHOOEY whether they call it excused or unexcused. So the teens in the article.....give them their way and now say it's excused.

What exactly does that change? You think they will get (or want) a home tutor while they are leave? Even if the school sends one, what will they learn while tending to an infant and recovering from childbirth. I can't exactly see a lot of learning going on with the infant there and all the distractions from learning that ought to be the priority during those crucial weeks.

Excused...or unexused...what is the difference?

eta: Maternity Leave in a job is different because it guarantees your position be available when you return. They are not telling these girls they can't come back after their "unexcused leave" are they? :shrug

[cassandra]

But they didn't kill someone and therefor shouldn't be punished for the rest of their lives for one bad mistake. America is the land of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th chance. That's a good thing. It allows us to learn from our mistakes and move forward.



I am not sure that giving millions of chances is a good thing but we can disagree on that point. I cannot understand why you think making the child take the time off and have to re-do that semester of work, since as so many have commented she wouldn't do well anyhow, punishes her for life.

No one is condoning teen pregnancy. Give them their 6 to 8 weeks off, as long as they make up the classes, let them move forward.

Of course if we taught better Sex-Ed in schools, allowed condoms and birth control to be spoken in schools, this really wouldn't be much of an issue.:deadshot

Ever talked to a teen about this. Maybe the reason that this doesn't work is that once kids can cross the stree on their own we have little influence in their lives. BTW IMO saying the schools didn't do it right is where I have the issue with personal responsibility.

How is that screwing personal responsibility? If no one shows you how to do something, how do you learn? Show those kids the benefits of condoms and birth control and MAYBE they'll show some personal responsibility and not get preggers!
But because we want them to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their lives and actions.!:deadshot

I want them to take personal responsibility for the actions in their life. I know it is not popular but it is possible to keep your pants on in high school and keep boys off you. Why don't you wake up to reality and understand that some girls don't do that.

I'm amazed that some of you all are looking at this 4-8 weeks as some sort of benefit or vacation time! For pete's sake, if a girl gives birth her whole life has changed. Why not cut her a bit of slack and realize that she's dealing with a whole lot what with the stress on her body, psyche, and grades to boot. Trying to hold it all together isn't an easy task! It's certainly more work than the student who hasn't given birth! Sheesh!

How is she going to be able to keep up? Or are we lowering the standards for her? I am not in favor of lowering standards, that is not the real world. IF you can't take the heat you get out of the kitchen!



This isn't a reward, it's simply dealing with the crisis at hand in the best possible way. Do you really think girls will start to think "You know Mary got pregnant and had a baby and got 8 weeks off school!!! I'm going to do that to, that way I can get some time off. I'm going to ignore the tough times Mary's going through (dealing with a newborn; being considered a 'slut'; having her life put on hold -at best - ruined - at worst; and having more responsibility thrust upon her then some adults can handle!)"

I can just see the girls lining up now to get preggers for that 8 week vacation from school! :roll

Never underestimate the mind of a sex crazed teen!

[Trueblue]

No one is condoning teen pregnancy. Give them their 6 to 8 weeks off, as long as they make up the classes, let them move forward.

Of course if we taught better Sex-Ed in schools, allowed condoms and birth control to be spoken in schools, this really wouldn't be much of an issue.:deadshot

Exactly!!!!!

Well, screw personal responsibility.

TB I have a busy morning. Maybe this afternoon I will have time to explain my thinking to you. I don't know that it would inform you though so I am not sure it would be worth the time.

Not making a slight at you in the least, I just know that you are a very convicted woman and that you have lived your entire life believing that this is not socialistic in any respect.

I actually went to wikipedia and reread the article about socialism. I know you are busy, and I agree, it's hard for me to believe that you would convince me that having a tutor come so you don't end up dropping out of school is socialism. I don't know that I thought about this my whole life, though. :D

Equal access to publicly funded services is something I believe in with all my heart.

I think my point was missed.

I don't think it's no big deal to take a vacation during the school year. I don't think new teen mothers should come to school after their birth. I DO think they need to be home. I don't think having mono should be unexcused.

If my kid has mono and is SICK, they wouldn't be able to concentrate on studies or learn anything even if they sent an instructor to the home at their expense. Same way that a new mother who needs to learn how to take care of an infant and herself and her body would.

They can miss school "unexcused" or "excused" for whatever the reason is ...and either way they need to make up the work before they can advance or graduate. MY point is that is doesn't MATTER A WHOOEY whether they call it excused or unexcused. So the teens in the article.....give them their way and now say it's excused.

What exactly does that change? You think they will get (or want) a home tutor while they are leave? Even if the school sends one, what will they learn while tending to an infant and recovering from childbirth. I can't exactly see a lot of learning going on with the infant there and all the distractions from learning that ought to be the priority during those crucial weeks.

Excused...or unexused...what is the difference?

eta: Maternity Leave in a job is different because it guarantees your position be available when you return. They are not telling these girls they can't come back after their "unexcused leave" are they? :shrug

They wouldn't let you come back to a job after four weeks of unexcused leave, would they?

The tutor comes for 2 to 4 hours a week, and assigns homework, and goes over the homework that's already completed. Pregnant teens have a tough row to hoe, they better be able to spend a little time on studying and some time on mothering, too. It's certainly easier than making up six weeks worth of work.

I'm amazed that some of you all are looking at this 4-8 weeks as some sort of benefit or vacation time! For pete's sake, if a girl gives birth her whole life has changed. Why not cut her a bit of slack and realize that she's dealing with a whole lot what with the stress on her body, psyche, and grades to boot. Trying to hold it all together isn't an easy task! It's certainly more work than the student who hasn't given birth! Sheesh!

:werd

[Sofa King]

They wouldn't let you come back to a job after four weeks of unexcused leave, would they?

The tutor comes for 2 to 4 hours a week, and assigns homework, and goes over the homework that's already completed. Pregnant teens have a tough row to hoe, they better be able to spend a little time on studying and some time on mothering, too. It's certainly easier than making up six weeks worth of work.

Exactly. No a job wouldn't. But public school DOES. That's why the term unexcused absense in a school is "empty". It isn't a punishment. Thank you for confirming my point.

And does the 2-4 hours a week work? :think I wonder if even if the absense is officially unexcused if they would refuse to send homework and books home so the mother could start catching up on her own if she could. Are they denied homework if the absense is unexcused? I also don't think any of it is easy, but it's not the public school's role to make it easy for each circumstance. Let them take time off (either excused or not) and make up the work just like anyone else who needed time off for any other reason. :shrug

[Trueblue]

Exactly. No a job wouldn't. But public school DOES. That's why the term unexcused absense in a school is "empty". It isn't a punishment. Thank you for confirming my point.

I have worked in public schools since 1990. You are mistaken about unexcused absences. I don't know what point of yours I have confirmed. :think

It is a big deal to have that many unexcused absences. The truancy officer will visit, the parents can be taken to court. I don't know where you get the idea that this is meaningless, I've worked with truancy officers, and on the homebound team, and I know it's a big deal to miss that much school. The school can also fail you for the year, if they choose to do so.

And does the 2-4 hours a week work? :think I wonder if even if the absense is officially unexcused if they would refuse to send homework and books home so the mother could start catching up on her own if she could. Are they denied homework if the absense is unexcused? I also don't think any of it is easy, but it's not the public school's role to make it easy for each circumstance. Let them take time off (either excused or not) and make up the work just like anyone else who needed time off for any other reason. :shrug

The homebound teacher comes to the house and teaches for 2 to 4 hours.

Sometimes the school won't send home the work if the absence is unexcused.

It's the public schools' job to get kids to graduation. A 4 to 8 week absence will not advance that cause.

Anyone else who needed to be off school for 4 to 8 weeks would have a homebound teacher [at least in my state] as long as their doctor said that they were well enough to have the homebound teacher come.

Kids get homebound services when they have mono, hepatitis, depression, psychosis, cancer, broken legs, and a bunch of other reasons, as long as the doctor okays it.

Making up 5th grade social studies is not hard, making up Algebra II or Senior English or Spanish on your own is much more difficult. These are high school courses, and most of us parents struggle to help our kids with their homework once they get to high school!!!! Teaching is needed.

[Sofa King]

I stand corrected. You are right...in elementary school (in ours in particular) they do let the student make up the work missed whether the absense is excused or not. It just goes into a record. If there is a another problem or there are unexcused absenses all throughout the year or no attempt to make up the work, then it becomes a truancy issue.

In high school I now realize that that is different. My bad. I now realize that they may not even be provided the opportunity to make up the work if it's listed as unexcused.

Ironically, our district lists suspension as an excused absence. So if they just suspend these girls "for giving birth? :para" their absence would be excused. :roll ironic

Anyway, I learned something and I appreciate the opportunity. The controversy makes more sense now.

[Oceanbreeze]

I am not sure that giving millions of chances is a good thing but we can disagree on that point. I cannot understand why you think making the child take the time off and have to re-do that semester of work, since as so many have commented she wouldn't do well anyhow, punishes her for life.



Ever talked to a teen about this. Maybe the reason that this doesn't work is that once kids can cross the stree on their own we have little influence in their lives. BTW IMO saying the schools didn't do it right is where I have the issue with personal responsibility.



I want them to take personal responsibility for the actions in their life. I know it is not popular but it is possible to keep your pants on in high school and keep boys off you. Why don't you wake up to reality and understand that some girls don't do that.


How is she going to be able to keep up? Or are we lowering the standards for her? I am not in favor of lowering standards, that is not the real world. IF you can't take the heat you get out of the kitchen!




Never underestimate the mind of a sex crazed teen!

:paclap :paclap :paclap

[cassandra]

It's the public schools' job to get kids to graduation. A 4 to 8 week absence will not advance that cause.


It is not the schools job to do that. It is the child's job to finish high school.

Looks like these girls will have to take another semester. Oh wait, that is not the case, we have far too many lovey dovey social workers in the way. No wonder kids do what they please, someone will always be there to clean up their mess. :no

[Trueblue]

I stand corrected. You are right...in elementary school (in ours in particular) they do let the student make up the work missed whether the absense is excused or not. It just goes into a record. If there is a another problem or there are unexcused absenses all throughout the year or no attempt to make up the work, then it becomes a truancy issue.

In high school I now realize that that is different. My bad. I now realize that they may not even be provided the opportunity to make up the work if it's listed as unexcused.

Ironically, our district lists suspension as an excused absence. So if they just suspend these girls "for giving birth? :para" their absence would be excused. :roll ironic

Anyway, I learned something and I appreciate the opportunity. The controversy makes more sense now.

Thanks. I realized the difference when I stopped being able to help my kids with their math homework-which happened in about the 7th grade. :para

I am not sure that giving millions of chances is a good thing but we can disagree on that point. I cannot understand why you think making the child take the time off and have to re-do that semester of work, since as so many have commented she wouldn't do well anyhow, punishes her for life.



Ever talked to a teen about this. Maybe the reason that this doesn't work is that once kids can cross the stree on their own we have little influence in their lives. BTW IMO saying the schools didn't do it right is where I have the issue with personal responsibility.



I want them to take personal responsibility for the actions in their life. I know it is not popular but it is possible to keep your pants on in high school and keep boys off you. Why don't you wake up to reality and understand that some girls don't do that.



How is she going to be able to keep up? Or are we lowering the standards for her? I am not in favor of lowering standards, that is not the real world. IF you can't take the heat you get out of the kitchen!




Never underestimate the mind of a sex crazed teen!

The standards aren't lowered, they still have to pass the end of course exams.

Obviously, it is possible to keep your pants on in high school. Most people do. But my question is so what???? Kids make mistakes. We can't give up on them because they made a mistake.

It is not the schools job to do that. It is the child's job to finish high school.

Looks like these girls will have to take another semester. Oh wait, that is not the case, we have far too many lovey dovey social workers in the way. No wonder kids do what they please, someone will always be there to clean up their mess. :no

It is the schools job to teach, and the child's job to learn. Both parties have an obligation.

This doesn't have jack-shit to do with any social workers. The social worker isn't even involved. It's the law. It's the ADA. To whose advantage is it that the child take a semester off? Who does that punish? Have you really thought this through? You do have daughters, can you not imagine that they might someday make a mistake?

Of course, middle and upper class people can always hire somebody to fix it-they will hire a tutor to come in, and then crap all over some poor girl who does the same thing.

I don't mind if you disagree, but I do mind that you ignore the facts [that this is not the doing of the social workers you so despise, it is related to the ADA].

We are talking about a six week leave, and you are acting like that takes away all the burden that these kids face. They still have to raise and support their child and finish school. I believe the lesson will be learned.

[Matt]

Let's avoid any semblance of socialism.
If the father is in school make him drop out and go to work to support the child.
Let's make sure that neither of them have a chance to graduate so that they have little hope of ever progressing beyond where they are at the time that they have the baby.
That gives the baby a good chance of staying in the same rut too.
After all, it is about punishment, isn't it?

[cassandra]

I don't hate social workers, I have very dear friends who are social workers and who do fabulous jobs.

I have daughters and I pray that they will have enough self respect to keep their pants on. And if they don't I pray that I have taught them enough so that they know how to protect themselves against pregnancy.

I am not about punishing anyone. I am about life and living it with integrity and personal responsibility.

[Trueblue]

Regardless of the semantics, to deny girls excused leave and some time of education services will act as a punishment that will impact their lives and the lives of the next generation they are raising, too. Nobody is being let off the hook here-the child is still there, the schoolwork is still there.

[cassandra]

And yet thousands of dollars are being wasted because of this girls mistake. :no

[Trueblue]

If she graduates, it's thousands of dollars saved. High school graduates earn more, they pay more in taxes, and their kids are less likely to live in poverty. It's an investment, if you ask me.

I'm all for preventing teen pregnancy, we have a crisis on our hands. But I live in the Bible Belt and all the kids get is abstinence education. And please, I know it's the parents' job to teach the kids, that is just more blaming and complaining. Parents tell their kids not to have sex, the kids don't listen.

[Matt]

...

I am not about punishing anyone. I am about life and living it with integrity and personal responsibility.

In the name of teaching them a lesson, it becomes all about punishment.
And fear of socialism is just a way to justify the punishment.

All girls and boys are not fortunate enough to have parents like you.

Many have been the object of unwanted sexual advances from a very early age.

[cassandra]

...

In the name of teaching them a lesson, it becomes all about punishment.
And fear of socialism is just a way to justify the punishment.

All girls and boys are not fortunate enough to have parents like you.

Many have been the object of unwanted sexual advances from a very early age.

I am not sure what your point is here or if there is one.

Socialism is something to fear. Sorry if I think it is a slippery slope.

As for punishment, I guess I wasn't raised that way either, I believe in natural consequences. :tarty

[Oceanbreeze]

I am not sure what your point is here or if there is one.

Socialism is something to fear. Sorry if I think it is a slippery slope.

As for punishment, I guess I wasn't raised that way either, I believe in natural consequences. :tarty

:paclap :paclap :paclap

[GreenEyedLady]

...

In the name of teaching them a lesson, it becomes all about punishment.
And fear of socialism is just a way to justify the punishment.

All girls and boys are not fortunate enough to have parents like you.

Many have been the object of unwanted sexual advances from a very early age.

It's not about punishment...you do not punish your children, you discipline them. They need structure, consistency, positive re-reinforcement, and natural consequences.

Yes, Matt, many do have unwanted sexual advances. I hate to tell you how many of the families I work with have endured either sexual, physical, or emotional abuse. It's horrible thinking about how many of their lives have been affected by the horrible things they have gone through all their lives.

Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal in response to an unwanted, disobedient or morally wrong behavior.

Discipline thus means to instruct a person or animal to follow a particular code of conduct, or to adhere to a certain "order," or to adopt a particular pattern of behaviour. So for example, to discipline a child to wash its hands before meals. Here, 'washing hands before meals' is a particular pattern of behaviour, and the child is being disciplined to adopt that pattern.

[Deadshot]

I am not sure what your point is here or if there is one.

Socialism is something to fear. Sorry if I think it is a slippery slope.

As for punishment, I guess I wasn't raised that way either, I believe in natural consequences. :tarty

Hate to pick on you here Cass, but a couple of your comments I just find a little odd.

You said "And yet thousands of dollars are being wasted because of this girls mistake" I would ask you to compare the money spent for this girl to the tax money spent to help boost Big Oil or to Subsidize farmers by paying them NOT to grow crops or the other Pork (created by BOTH sides of the aisle). I would say that if my choices were to spend money to help those I listed versus the girl you listed I think most people would choose to help the young girl who made a bad mistake. To be honest, I think you'd choose the girl too, Cass.

Then you said "I believe in natural consequences." So what would be the "natural consequences" for a pregnant girl? Because the "natural consequences" just a few short years ago, in your life time Cass, were for the girl to become a social outcast and be told at 16 that her life was over. The old "natural consequences" were for the community to not take pity on someone who made a stupid mistake, but to point at her and her family as what not to do and for the girl and her family to be embarassed for their lifetime and for the child to be known as a 'bastard' for his/her lifetime.

I don't think anyone, beyond Ms. Spears, wants their child to have a baby as a child. But mistakes and errors in judgement happen to children - just like adults. I believe that we should help those who make a mistake. Now if this is a girl on her 5th kid at 18, then I'm for sterilization. But for the 16 year old who gave in to raging hormones and teenage "love", I'm willing to tell her that while she's got a tough road ahead, we're going to help her put her life on track. :deadshot

[Oceanbreeze]

Hate to pick on you here Cass, but a couple of your comments I just find a little odd.

You said "And yet thousands of dollars are being wasted because of this girls mistake" I would ask you to compare the money spent for this girl to the tax money spent to help boost Big Oil or to Subsidize farmers by paying them NOT to grow crops or the other Pork (created by BOTH sides of the aisle). I would say that if my choices were to spend money to help those I listed versus the girl you listed I think most people would choose to help the young girl who made a bad mistake. To be honest, I think you'd choose the girl too, Cass.

Then you said "I believe in natural consequences." So what would be the "natural consequences" for a pregnant girl? Because the "natural consequences" just a few short years ago, in your life time Cass, were for the girl to become a social outcast and be told at 16 that her life was over. The old "natural consequences" were for the community to not take pity on someone who made a stupid mistake, but to point at her and her family as what not to do and for the girl and her family to be embarassed for their lifetime and for the child to be known as a 'bastard' for his/her lifetime.

I don't think anyone, beyond Ms. Spears, wants their child to have a baby as a child. But mistakes and errors in judgement happen to children - just like adults. I believe that we should help those who make a mistake. Now if this is a girl on her 5th kid at 18, then I'm for sterilization. But for the 16 year old who gave in to raging hormones and teenage "love", I'm willing to tell her that while she's got a tough road ahead, we're going to help her put her life on track. :deadshot

Point being "WE the taxpayers" shouldn't have to help a pregnant teen, the teenS and both sets of parents are responsible for the pregnancy, NOT society.

[Matt]

It's not about punishment...you do not punish your children, you discipline them. They need structure, consistency, positive re-reinforcement, and natural consequences.

Yes, Matt, many do have unwanted sexual advances. I hate to tell you how many of the families I work with have endured either sexual, physical, or emotional abuse. It's horrible thinking about how many of their lives have been affected by the horrible things they have gone through all their lives.

Punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant or aversive on a person or animal in response to an unwanted, disobedient or morally wrong behavior.

Discipline thus means to instruct a person or animal to follow a particular code of conduct, or to adhere to a certain "order," or to adopt a particular pattern of behaviour. So for example, to discipline a child to wash its hands before meals. Here, 'washing hands before meals' is a particular pattern of behaviour, and the child is being disciplined to adopt that pattern.


It is possible that I was doing workshops on this very subject when you were in diapers.
I still work with these people from the very young to the middle aged on discipline in everything from budget to their daily life ~ and this is all about choices and consequenches.

I totally believe in logical consequences when it can be helpful but you can't use that method in the middle of a fire when has played with matches.

Having to take care of a baby is pretty severe consequences, IMO.

I do not see how you can see depriving a young girl of her education as a reasonable consequence to submitting to sex and getting caught in a pregnancey.

Without help this child tends to end up with another pregnancy, especially if she has to depend on whatever guy she can find to help her survive financially and for emotional support.

[Deadshot]

Point being "WE the taxpayers" shouldn't have to help a pregnant teen, the teenS and both sets of parents are responsible for the pregnancy, NOT society.


So you support Abortion as a viable option then? correct? That would be "taking responsiblity" and not burdening the tax payers out there...right?

[Oceanbreeze]

So you support Abortion as a viable option then? correct? That would be "taking responsiblity" and not burdening the tax payers out there...right?

No...I said the teen parents, grandparents, and families are responsible for raising the child conceived, NOT society.

[Deadshot]

No...I said the teen parents, grandparents, and families are responsible for raising the child conceived, NOT society.

But if they choose to take their responsiblity and kill it, isn't that their choice? Abortion is legal. You've stated that you are willing to offer absolutely NO SUPPORT, so can you blame them for wanting to "dispose" of the problem?

I'm adopted, I see the third option, but many people do not. I don't like abortion, but I believe in a woman's right to choose. But I'm going to attempt to stack the deck in my favor.

If, like my birth mother, you're 16 and are going to have a baby I want to steer you away from Abortion by offering Society's help if you want to keep it. Your path, OB, leads right to the door of the Abortion clinic. :deadshot

[Oceanbreeze]

But if they choose to take their responsiblity and kill it, isn't that their choice? Abortion is legal. You've stated that you are willing to offer absolutely NO SUPPORT, so can you blame them for wanting to "dispose" of the problem?

I'm adopted, I see the third option, but many people do not. I don't like abortion, but I believe in a woman's right to choose. But I'm going to attempt to stack the deck in my favor.

If, like my birth mother, you're 16 and are going to have a baby I want to steer you away from Abortion by offering Society's help if you want to keep it. Your path, OB, leads right to the door of the Abortion clinic. :deadshot

No soup for you. Nice try, though. :tarty You know I'm pro-life and don't believe in abortion, except for incest or rape. You also know I don't believe in long term welfare. I do believe in adoption, I have several friends who have been adopted.

[Deadshot]

No soup for you. Nice try, though. :tarty You know I'm pro-life and don't believe in abortion, except for incest or rape. You also know I don't believe in long term welfare. I do believe in adoption, I have several friends who have been adopted.

Oh, believe me, I taylored this post just for you. :neener

But if you only offer two choices, adoption or doing it all on your own (because let's be honest here, if you had a strong family unit with mom-dad-grandpa-grandma-aunt-uncle-etc. this, statistically speaking, probably would have never happened!) those kids will seek the undesirable third option in many cases.

I'm just saying that in today's culture that if given the OB choices of Adoption, on you own and that of the real world, Abortion many kids will choose, and do choose, the easy way out. By giving society more of a role we offer a viable option for the girl to keep the child vs. aborting it....you damn soup nazi!

[Oceanbreeze]

Oh, believe me, I taylored this post just for you. :neener

But if you only offer two choices, adoption or doing it all on your own (because let's be honest here, if you had a strong family unit with mom-dad-grandpa-grandma-aunt-uncle-etc. this, statistically speaking, probably would have never happened!) those kids will seek the undesirable third option in many cases.

I'm just saying that in today's culture that if given the OB choices of Adoption, on you own and that of the real world, Abortion many kids will choose, and do choose, the easy way out. By giving society more of a role we offer a viable option for the girl to keep the child vs. aborting it....you damn soup nazi!

:snicker :snicker :snicker :lmao I love that Seinfeld episode :lmao

Anyway...mistakes happen. But, a lot of girls now want to have babies to be loved. The schools need self esteem classes. I read somewhere that "it's normal" in Jamie Spears region to have babies at 16. NORMAL? Today's teenagers are too selfish to give up a baby for adoption. :shrug

Case in point. A neice had a baby at 16 my SIL offered to adopt the baby, but the neice decided to keep the baby since welfare would take care of her. She now has 5 kids, by 5 fathers, and still on welfare 10 years later. :devil

[Deadshot]

There are always horror stories OB, your old enough to know that. But for every girl like your niece there are other girls that would learn from their mistakes.

As to all teenagers being selfish, that simply isn't true and if you thought about it you'd come to the same realization.

Right now there are three options, and only one of them you approve of. I thank God for one of the two other options because, sadly, many people will not put kids up for adoption. I hope they pick the option of getting societies help and not having an abortion.

But I like that I live in a world that has options for those of us that fuck up. It's why America's great! The home of the second chance!

[Oceanbreeze]

There are always horror stories OB, your old enough to know that. But for every girl like your niece there are other girls that would learn from their mistakes.

As to all teenagers being selfish, that simply isn't true and if you thought about it you'd come to the same realization.

Right now there are three options, and only one of them you approve of. I thank God for one of the two other options because, sadly, many people will not put kids up for adoption. I hope they pick the option of getting societies help and not having an abortion.

But I like that I live in a world that has options for those of us that fuck up. It's why America's great! The home of the second chance!

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. I became a GREAT Aunt at the age of 30....what a proud moment. I'll probably be a Great Great Aunt when I turn 45. :lmao

[GreenEyedLady]

It is possible that I was doing workshops on this very subject when you were in diapers.
I still work with these people from the very young to the middle aged on discipline in everything from budget to their daily life ~ and this is all about choices and consequenches.

I totally believe in logical consequences when it can be helpful but you can't use that method in the middle of a fire when has played with matches.

Having to take care of a baby is pretty severe consequences, IMO.

I do not see how you can see depriving a young girl of her education as a reasonable consequence to submitting to sex and getting caught in a pregnancey.

Without help this child tends to end up with another pregnancy, especially if she has to depend on whatever guy she can find to help her survive financially and for emotional support.

Actually Matt, my post was more for not agreeing with children being punished and using other means to deal with children. I didn't mean to infer that her taking care of a baby was the natural consequence. I do not believe anyone should be deprived of an education.

In reference to the remark about the fire. Why does a child have matches and start a fire? Lack of adequately child proofing your home and of watching a child that probably has a propensity for getting into things. Those are preventable things, as you well know.

At what age did you start doing workshops..it's entirely possible I was not in diapers when you started. I hope I was..it would make me a lot younger than I am. :D

[Trueblue]

Hate to pick on you here Cass, but a couple of your comments I just find a little odd.

You said "And yet thousands of dollars are being wasted because of this girls mistake" I would ask you to compare the money spent for this girl to the tax money spent to help boost Big Oil or to Subsidize farmers by paying them NOT to grow crops or the other Pork (created by BOTH sides of the aisle). I would say that if my choices were to spend money to help those I listed versus the girl you listed I think most people would choose to help the young girl who made a bad mistake. To be honest, I think you'd choose the girl too, Cass.

Then you said "I believe in natural consequences." So what would be the "natural consequences" for a pregnant girl? Because the "natural consequences" just a few short years ago, in your life time Cass, were for the girl to become a social outcast and be told at 16 that her life was over. The old "natural consequences" were for the community to not take pity on someone who made a stupid mistake, but to point at her and her family as what not to do and for the girl and her family to be embarassed for their lifetime and for the child to be known as a 'bastard' for his/her lifetime.

I don't think anyone, beyond Ms. Spears, wants their child to have a baby as a child. But mistakes and errors in judgement happen to children - just like adults. I believe that we should help those who make a mistake. Now if this is a girl on her 5th kid at 18, then I'm for sterilization. But for the 16 year old who gave in to raging hormones and teenage "love", I'm willing to tell her that while she's got a tough road ahead, we're going to help her put her life on track. :deadshot

:werd

Point being "WE the taxpayers" shouldn't have to help a pregnant teen, the teenS and both sets of parents are responsible for the pregnancy, NOT society.

If we don't make sure she graduates, even if she never goes on welfare, she'll not contribute as much financially to society, nor will her kids do as well.

It is possible that I was doing workshops on this very subject when you were in diapers.
I still work with these people from the very young to the middle aged on discipline in everything from budget to their daily life ~ and this is all about choices and consequenches.

I totally believe in logical consequences when it can be helpful but you can't use that method in the middle of a fire when has played with matches.

Having to take care of a baby is pretty severe consequences, IMO.

I do not see how you can see depriving a young girl of her education as a reasonable consequence to submitting to sex and getting caught in a pregnancey.

Without help this child tends to end up with another pregnancy, especially if she has to depend on whatever guy she can find to help her survive financially and for emotional support.

Some natural consequences are simply too heinous. The relying on another guy is one of them.

But if they choose to take their responsiblity and kill it, isn't that their choice? Abortion is legal. You've stated that you are willing to offer absolutely NO SUPPORT, so can you blame them for wanting to "dispose" of the problem?

I'm adopted, I see the third option, but many people do not. I don't like abortion, but I believe in a woman's right to choose. But I'm going to attempt to stack the deck in my favor.

If, like my birth mother, you're 16 and are going to have a baby I want to steer you away from Abortion by offering Society's help if you want to keep it. Your path, OB, leads right to the door of the Abortion clinic. :deadshot

I hear all the time that the solution is to make the parents responsible. Except a lot of the time, they just aren't. To me, it seems like a dodge. Blame somebody else, and then you don't have to participate in any solutions to anything. I think the definition of socialism has been expanded to mean "anything that the government does for anybody"...who isn't in a position of power, of course. :snicker

If providing public education for all is socialism, then call me a socialist. But you'll be calling every single leading Republican officeholder a socialist, too. :wink