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Kurtz
12-06-2007, 06:06 PM
What if Christian leaders are wrong about homosexuality? I suppose, much as a newspaper maintains its credibility by setting the record straight, church leaders would need to do the same:
Correction: Despite what you might have read, heard or been taught throughout your churchgoing life, homosexuality is, in fact, determined at birth and is not to be condemned by God's followers.

Based on a few recent headlines, we won't be seeing that admission anytime soon. Last week, U.S. Roman Catholic bishops took the position that homosexual attractions are "disordered" and that gays should live closeted lives of chastity. At the same time, North Carolina's Baptist State Convention was preparing to investigate churches that are too gay-friendly. Even the more liberal Presbyterian Church (USA) had been planning to put a minister on trial for conducting a marriage ceremony for two women before the charges were dismissed on a technicality. All this brings me back to the question: What if we're wrong?

Religion's only real commodity, after all, is its moral authority. Lose that, and we lose our credibility. Lose credibility, and we might as well close up shop.

It's happened to Christianity before, most famously when we dug in our heels over Galileo's challenge to the biblical view that the Earth, rather than the sun, was at the center of our solar system. You know the story. Galileo was persecuted for what turned out to be incontrovertibly true. For many, especially in the scientific community, Christianity never recovered.

This time, Christianity is in danger of squandering its moral authority by continuing its pattern of discrimination against gays and lesbians in the face of mounting scientific evidence that sexual orientation has little or nothing to do with choice. To the contrary, whether sexual orientation arises as a result of the mother's hormones or the child's brain structure or DNA, it is almost certainly an accident of birth. The point is this: Without choice, there can be no moral culpability.

Answer in Scriptures

So, why are so many church leaders (not to mention Orthodox Jewish and Muslim leaders) persisting in their view that homosexuality is wrong despite a growing stream of scientific evidence that is likely to become a torrent in the coming years? The answer is found in Leviticus 18. "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination."

As a former "the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" kind of guy, I am sympathetic with any Christian who accepts the Bible at face value. But here's the catch. Leviticus is filled with laws imposing the death penalty for everything from eating catfish to sassing your parents. If you accept one as the absolute, unequivocal word of God, you must accept them all.

For many of gay America's loudest critics, the results are unthinkable. First, no more football. At least not without gloves. Handling a pig skin is an abomination. Second, no more Saturday games even if you can get a new ball. Violating the Sabbath is a capital offense according to Leviticus. For the over-40 crowd, approaching the altar of God with a defect in your sight is taboo, but you'll have plenty of company because those menstruating or with disabilities are also barred.

The truth is that mainstream religion has moved beyond animal sacrifice, slavery and the host of primitive rituals described in Leviticus centuries ago. Selectively hanging onto these ancient proscriptions for gays and lesbians exclusively is unfair according to anybody's standard of ethics. We lawyers call it "selective enforcement," and in civil affairs it's illegal.

A better reading of Scripture starts with the book of Genesis and the grand pronouncement about the world God created and all those who dwelled in it. "And, the Lord saw that it was good." If God created us and if everything he created is good, how can a gay person be guilty of being anything more than what God created him or her to be?

Turning to the New Testament, the writings of the Apostle Paul at first lend credence to the notion that homosexuality is a sin, until you consider that Paul most likely is referring to the Roman practice of pederasty, a form of pedophilia common in the ancient world. Successful older men often took boys into their homes as concubines, lovers or sexual slaves. Today, such sexual exploitation of minors is no longer tolerated. The point is that the sort of long-term, committed, same-sex relationships that are being debated today are not addressed in the New Testament. It distorts the biblical witness to apply verses written in one historical context (i.e. sexual exploitation of children) to contemporary situations between two monogamous partners of the same sex. Sexual promiscuity is condemned by the Bible whether it's between gays or straights. Sexual fidelity is not.

What would Jesus do?

For those who have lingering doubts, dust off your Bibles and take a few hours to reacquaint yourself with the teachings of Jesus. You won't find a single reference to homosexuality. There are teachings on money, lust, revenge, divorce, fasting and a thousand other subjects, but there is nothing on homosexuality. Strange, don't you think, if being gay were such a moral threat?

On the other hand, Jesus spent a lot of time talking about how we should treat others. First, he made clear it is not our role to judge. It is God's. ("Judge not lest you be judged." Matthew 7:1) And, second, he commanded us to love other people as we love ourselves.

So, I ask you. Would you want to be discriminated against? Would you want to lose your job, housing or benefits because of something over which you had no control? Better yet, would you like it if society told you that you couldn't visit your lifelong partner in the hospital or file a claim on his behalf if he were murdered?

The suffering that gay and lesbian people have endured at the hands of religion is incalculable, but they can look expectantly to the future for vindication. Scientific facts, after all, are a stubborn thing. Even our religious beliefs must finally yield to them as the church in its battle with Galileo ultimately realized. But for religion, the future might be ominous. Watching the growing conflict between medical science and religion over homosexuality is like watching a train wreck from a distance. You can see it coming for miles and sense the inevitable conclusion, but you're powerless to stop it. The more church leaders dig in their heels, the worse it's likely to be.

Oliver "Buzz" Thomas is a Baptist minister and author of an upcoming book, 10 Things Your Minister Wants to Tell You (But Can't Because He Needs the Job).


Oliver "Buzz" Thomas (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-11-19-forum-religion_x.htm)

I'll leave it to y'all to pull out the parts you believe to be signifiicant. :)

Saguaro
12-06-2007, 06:14 PM
Anyone remember in the 80's the saying "God doesn't make junk " ?

cassandra
12-06-2007, 06:22 PM
So true Saguaro. God makes every person perfect in their own way.

Wabash
12-06-2007, 09:04 PM
Homosexuality is wrong, regardless of any religion involved.
As a young boy in SF, I viewed them as goof balls(no pun intended).

If ya got it, get it fixed....therapists can work wonders these days with meditation, drugs, or hypnosis! Whether born with it or learned behavior(your choice), it's a sickness, just like pedophilia, alcoholism and other things.!

Trueblue
12-06-2007, 09:08 PM
Good lord.

Kurtz
12-06-2007, 09:08 PM
Homosexuality is wrong, regardless of any religion involved.
As a young boy in SF, I viewed them as goof balls(no pun intended).

If ya got it, get it fixed....therapists can work wonders these days with meditation, drugs, or hypnosis! Whether born with it or learned behavior(your choice), it's a sickness, just like pedophilia, alcoholism and other things.!

Good advice, Wabby, take it with a spoon of honey! :)

Saguaro
12-06-2007, 09:10 PM
Wabash, their brains are wired differently , or it is genetic .. how the heck will you change that ? Einstein's brain was wired differently.

Kurtz
12-06-2007, 09:12 PM
I forgot to say: Read a fuckin' book Wabby, a science book. :lol

Wabash
12-06-2007, 09:37 PM
Wabash, their brains are wired differently , or it is genetic .. how the heck will you change that ? Einstein's brain was wired differently.

I forgot to say: Read a fuckin' book Wabby, a science book. :lol

There are experts out there that say it's a learned behavior, not genetic.....I've also heard of people and seen them that say their behavior has been changed though therapy and they are much happier!

I know all you GW fanatics think that it's the way it is and there is no other explanation, and just HAS to be that way, but it's not so!

AYFR
12-06-2007, 10:35 PM
Well folks I am staying out of this one. Already been down this road and have had my say.

I will say this though, this
("Judge not lest you be judged." Matthew 7:1)
is not saying that we are not to judge at all but to be carefull when we do becasue the same measure that we use to judge will also be used on us.

Kurtz
12-06-2007, 10:39 PM
There are experts out there that say it's a learned behavior, not genetic.....I've also heard of people and seen them that say their behavior has been changed though therapy and they are much happier!

I know all you GW fanatics think that it's the way it is and there is no other explanation, and just HAS to be that way, but it's not so!

If I thought you had an open mind, I'd go thru the hassle of showin' you the documentation that shows what you're sayin' is a crock of crap. :lol

Here's one for ya:
Ex-Gay to Pay
Mon Sep 10, 2007 at 06:38:42 AM
This past July, New Times published "Scared Straight," an article about Worthy Creations, a local ministry that shepherds gay men and women toward heterosexuality.

The Fort Lauderdale based group operates under the spiritual umbrella of the “ex-gay” movement, which uses reparative therapy to purportedly rid homosexuals of same-sex attraction. Documented techniques of the controversial therapy include attaching electric sensors to the genitals and then administering a shock at any sign of arousal by same-sex images, exorcism, sedation, isolation, physical restraints, and hypnosis.

This past week the ex-gay movement made headlines again after one of its “ex-gay” counselors in Texas -- who employed “touch therapy” with clients to cure them of their homosexuality -- was convicted of sexual assault.

According to court documents, Christopher Austin counseled ex-gays at Church of Christ South MacArthur in Irving. He was first arrested in 2002 after a patient claimed his techniques included nude sessions and physical intimacy, including oral sex. News coverage of the case led to other victims coming forward who alleged the ex-gay leader “unlawfully, intentionally and knowingly caused penetration.”

This past week, a jury found Austin guilty of the second-degree felony charges. He was sentenced to ten years in prison, but received seven years probation, had to register as a sex offender, and was ordered to pay a $2,500 fine. Amen! --Joanne Green


http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2007/09/exgay_to_pay.php

Saguaro
12-06-2007, 10:43 PM
There are experts out there that say it's a learned behavior, not genetic.....I've also heard of people and seen them that say their behavior has been changed though therapy and they are much happier!

I know all you GW fanatics think that it's the way it is and there is no other explanation, and just HAS to be that way, but it's not so!

I would like the name of one,just one "expert"

Saguaro
12-06-2007, 10:45 PM
A preacher or Rush is NOT an expert

cassandra
12-06-2007, 11:08 PM
A preacher or Rush is NOT an expert

They are experts just not on this topic. :)

Oceanbreeze
12-06-2007, 11:15 PM
Well folks I am staying out of this one. Already been down this road and have had my say.

I will say this though, this
("Judge not lest you be judged." Matthew 7:1)
is not saying that we are not to judge at all but to be carefull when we do becasue the same measure that we use to judge will also be used on us.

Finally a bible quote I can agree on. :angel

Lone Laugher
12-07-2007, 07:14 AM
Homosexuality is wrong, regardless of any religion involved.
As a young boy in SF, I viewed them as goof balls(no pun intended).

If ya got it, get it fixed....therapists can work wonders these days with meditation, drugs, or hypnosis! Whether born with it or learned behavior(your choice), it's a sickness, just like pedophilia, alcoholism and other things.!

New Word: Wabism

A statement made by Wabash that adds to his well earned reputation as a backward-thinking, judgemental idiot.

Kurtz
12-07-2007, 10:12 AM
I don't deny Wabby his beliefs in his so-called Biblical beliefs, but I like consistency.

IF Leviticus is correct as stated, then so are all the other tenets of Leviticus. Wabash himself speaks of his numerous divorces, these are sins that are unforgiveable and should be illegal. Legally under the Bible dictates Wabash is continuing to break the law as he is not married to his current wife.
Should he be incarcerated?

Well, Wabby?

And Wabby, you might want to take the time to actually read the original post, it has been the way that many modern Christians are able to resolve the true Christianity in their hearts to the actual writings of the Bible, the ones that were written a looooooong time ago.

issac the dragon
12-07-2007, 12:04 PM
True, the Bible is merciless. Adultery. There's an interesting topic. How many men and women today would be stoned to death? And rebellious teenage boys? If you are going to live by the law, you must be prepared to die by the law.

Partyless
12-07-2007, 12:21 PM
Homosexuality is wrong, regardless of any religion involved.
As a young boy in SF, I viewed them as goof balls(no pun intended).

If ya got it, get it fixed....therapists can work wonders these days with meditation, drugs, or hypnosis! Whether born with it or learned behavior(your choice), it's a sickness, just like pedophilia, alcoholism and other things.!

Do you also believe that a straight person can be 'fixed' to become gay? I mean some in the religious right oppose gay marriage so much I think it's because they're scared their spouses will suddenly decide to try it. So this concept of 'fixing' must scare the crap of them!

Just curious.

I get curious about the matter of how most fundementalists selectively quote and live the bible. I mean there's that old standby to argue homosexuality is a sin:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)

but if you're going to play that card, do you also believe this that all homosexuals should be put to death:

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

And even heterosexuals better be careful:

"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)
Oh look - same book in the same bible! Oops!

If you're not into that, better be careful with your morning routine:

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

SHIT - I saw my husband shaving this morning - who do I report him to - our minister or is there a Biblical police around anywhere?

Even your closet isn't safe:

"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)

Damn, that Leviticus was a barrel of laughs, huh? So what's my punishment for this poly-cotton blend shirt I'm sporting right now?

The main argument the fundies make about homosexuality being a sin is that the bible says it's an abomination. Guess what, hope you don't like shrimp and lobster:

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

OH NO - we served shrimp creole at a Wednesday dinner at my church last month! OH THE HUMANITY!

The bible is a wonderful book for Christian study and reference but to literally take every word in there as how we should live our lives today is completely out of context. To be "Christian" means you have accepted that Jesus Christ is the son of God and died on the cross for your sins. As such, those who believe will ascend into heaven upon our death as well. Oh and by the way, no where in the Christian bible did Jesus ever mention homosexuality - that it was a sin or otherwise so if these fundies would shut up and be more 'Christ-like', this world really would be a better place.

Viki
12-07-2007, 12:28 PM
Homosexuality is wrong, regardless of any religion involved.
As a young boy in SF, I viewed them as goof balls(no pun intended).

If ya got it, get it fixed....therapists can work wonders these days with meditation, drugs, or hypnosis! Whether born with it or learned behavior(your choice), it's a sickness, just like pedophilia, alcoholism and other things.!

Well... as a lesbian and a pastor, of course I disagree with the above... but your statement makes me laugh because just last night, as we were enjoying the warmth of our beautiful home with a roaring fire and a nice little chicken casserole, I spontaneously erupted, "WHY, oh WHY isn't everyone lesbian??? I mean, between two women the sex is awesome, we both cook, we both clean, we both work, and we both have kids. What more could anyone want???" "Hurry up," I said, "put me on a recruitment poster!"

Partyless
12-07-2007, 12:49 PM
Well... as a lesbian and a pastor, of course I disagree with the above... but your statement makes me laugh because just last night, as we were enjoying the warmth of our beautiful home with a roaring fire and a nice little chicken casserole, I spontaneously erupted, "WHY, oh WHY isn't everyone lesbian??? I mean, between two women the sex is awesome, we both cook, we both clean, we both work, and we both have kids. What more could anyone want???" "Hurry up," I said, "put me on a recruitment poster!"

Forget the sexuality - give me that chicken casserole recipe! LOL

Careful - the fundies think you really ARE recruiting!

Viki
12-07-2007, 01:02 PM
Forget the sexuality - give me that chicken casserole recipe! LOL

Careful - the fundies think you really ARE recruiting!

You'll have to ask Melissa for the recipe, but let me tell you it was comfort food par excellence!

Yes, I get the recruitment fears ...and for the record I've been actively lesbian for 30 years and haven't recruited one yet ... I prefer them seasoned ... like my casseroles ... :LoneLaugher

Kurtz
12-07-2007, 01:44 PM
Well... as a lesbian and a pastor, of course I disagree with the above... but your statement makes me laugh because just last night, as we were enjoying the warmth of our beautiful home with a roaring fire and a nice little chicken casserole, I spontaneously erupted, "WHY, oh WHY isn't everyone lesbian??? I mean, between two women the sex is awesome, we both cook, we both clean, we both work, and we both have kids. What more could anyone want???" "Hurry up," I said, "put me on a recruitment poster!"

Forget the sexuality - give me that chicken casserole recipe! LOL

Careful - the fundies think you really ARE recruiting!

You'll have to ask Melissa for the recipe, but let me tell you it was comfort food par excellence!

Yes, I get the recruitment fears ...and for the record I've been actively lesbian for 30 years and haven't recruited one yet ... I prefer them seasoned ... like my casseroles ... :LoneLaugher

Can we get an invite to dinner? :grub

Viki
12-07-2007, 01:49 PM
Can we get an invite to dinner? :grub

You bet and it's leftover chicken casserole tonight!

Matt
12-07-2007, 11:00 PM
Homosexuality is wrong, regardless of any religion involved.
As a young boy in SF, I viewed them as goof balls(no pun intended).

If ya got it, get it fixed....therapists can work wonders these days with meditation, drugs, or hypnosis! Whether born with it or learned behavior(your choice), it's a sickness, just like pedophilia, alcoholism and other things.!

IMIO, the sickness lies in people who think like this.
Most of the people that I know who are very adamant about sexuality being a choice and something that one can recover from, often express their opinion that someone is gay ~ not because they see them involved in activity that would reveal this but because of looks or other non-sexual behavior. Why?
Extreme prejudice is learned behavior.

The Bible conflicts with itself if we try to make it literal in all areas thru the ages.
And remember, there are many translations of the Bible ~ none of which condone or accept divorce. Yet, society has accepted it because it is so prevalent.
We are ever changing in what is considered OK ~ even among the most devout Christians.
Somehow we find justification for our painted faces and new found freedoms.

That's the world that we live in. A world that says Giuliana is okay and Hillary and Obama are not.
When Wabby can explain without unnecessary and meaningless adjectives why he believes the way that he does, I will begin to take him seriously.

I take many seriously that I disagree with politically and religiously but only if they possess realistic reasoning ability.