The reason for the season

[AYFR]

Jesus is the reason for the season. That is what we all have been told; BUT what is I were to tell you that that is not completely accurate?
What then?
Yes Jesus's birth is the reason we celebrate Christmas but what was the reason he was born?

Here is a passage that might clarify things.

Matthew 1:18-25
18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[a] because he will save his people from their sins."

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[b]—which means, "God with us."

24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Without sin or sinners there would be no need for Jesus and without Jesus no Christmas.


The real reason for the season is you, me and all of us.

[Cookie Parker]

Jesus is the reason for the season. That is what we all have been told; BUT what is I were to tell you that that is not completely accurate?
What then?
Yes Jesus's birth is the reason we celebrate Christmas but what was the reason he was born?

Here is a passage that might clarify things.



Without sin or sinners there would be no need for Jesus and without Jesus no Christmas.


The real reason for the season is you, me and all of us.

Well, let's go back a bit before Paul pushed Christ on the Romans, k? Or at least his version of Christ.

If it weren't for the pagans, there'd be no reason for the season....there's nothing Paul gave us to show when Christ was born..but plenty of historical evidence to suggest much of Paul's writings were taken from pagan traditions in order to get rid of the pagans and absorb them into the new religion...

Also, bringing the history up to speed, if it weren't for Wal-Mart, consumption and good old American greed, there'd be no need for the season...and hence, consumption has given us a reason for the season....

See, there's no peace on earth, nor goodwill toward and no intention of making any.....it's give me, give me, give me...season..:Q

[Kurtz]

Well, let's go back a bit before Paul pushed Christ on the Romans, k? Or at least his version of Christ.

If it weren't for the pagans, there'd be no reason for the season....there's nothing Paul gave us to show when Christ was born..but plenty of historical evidence to suggest much of Paul's writings were taken from pagan traditions in order to get rid of the pagans and absorb them into the new religion...

Also, bringing the history up to speed, if it weren't for Wal-Mart, consumption and good old American greed, there'd be no need for the season...and hence, consumption has given us a reason for the season....

See, there's no peace on earth, nor goodwill toward and no intention of making any.....it's give me, give me, give me...season..:Q


Good thang The Story of Rudolph is happier, eh Cookie? :wink

Rudolph (http://hubpages.com/hub/The_Origin_of_Rudolph_the_Red-Nosed_Reindeer)

But I like your Spirit, Rev. :hug

[Trueblue]

Me, too, Rev.

[cassandra]

Amen Rev.

[MW]

Christmas is supposed to be about Christ, who was born in the fall according to the Bible (the whole paying taxes after the crop was harvested) . . . yet those who don't believe, celebrate it as well . . . and there is that whole Pagans were celebrating long before "Christmas" . . . and other December celebrations . . .

December celebrations in many faiths and locations - ancient and modern: (http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm)

ANCIENT BRAZIL: Brazilian archeologists have found an assembly of 127 granite blocks arranged equidistant from each other. They apparently form an ancient astronomical observatory. One of the stones marked the position of the sun at the time of the winter solstice and were probably used in religious rituals.

ANCIENT EGYPT: The god-man/savior Osiris died and was entombed on DEC-21. "At midnight, the priests emerged from an inner shrine crying 'The Virgin has brought forth! The light is waxing" and showing the image of a baby to the worshipers."

ANCIENT GREECE: The winter solstice ritual was called Lenaea, the Festival of the Wild Women. In very ancient times, a man representing the harvest god Dionysos was torn to pieces and eaten by a gang of women on this day. Later in the ritual, Dionysos would be reborn as a baby. By classical times, the human sacrifice had been replaced by the killing of a goat. The women's role had changed to that of funeral mourners and observers of the birth.

ANCIENT ROME: Saturnalia began as a feast day for Saturn on DEC-17 and of Ops (DEC-19). About 50 BCE, both were later converted into two day celebrations. During the Empire, the festivals were combined to cover a full week: DEC-17 to 23.

By the third century CE, there were many religions and spiritual mysteries being followed within the Roman Empire. Many, if not most, celebrated the birth of their god-man near the time of the solstice. Emperor Aurelian (270 to 275 CE) blended a number of Pagan solstice celebrations of the nativity of such god-men/saviors as Appolo, Attis, Baal, Dionysus, Helios, Hercules, Horus, Mithra, Osiris, Perseus, and Theseus into a single festival called the "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun" on DEC-25. At the time, Mithraism and Christianity were fierce competitors. Aurelian had even declared Mithraism the official religion of the Roman Empire in 274 CE. Christianity won out by becoming the new official religion in the 4th century CE.

ATHEISTS: There has been a recent increase in solstice observances by Atheists in the U.S. For example, The American Atheists and local Atheist groups have organized celebrations for 2000-DEC, including the Great North Texas Infidel Bash in Weatherford TX; Winter Solstice bash in Roselle NJ; Winter Solstice Parties in York PA, Boise ID, North Bethesda MD, and Des Moines IA; Winter Solstice Gatherings in Phoenix AZ and Denver CO: a Year End Awards and Review Dinner (YEAR) in San Francisco, CA.

BUDDHISM: On DEC-8, or on the Sunday immediately preceding, Buddhists celebrate Bodhi Day (a.k.a. Rohatsu). It recalls the day in 596 BCE, when the Buddha achieved enlightenment. He had left his family and possessions behind at the age of 29, and sought the meaning of life -- particularly the reasons for its hardships. He studied under many spiritual teachers without success. Finally, he sat under a pipal tree and vowed that he would stay there until he found what he was seeking. On the morning of the eighth day, he realized that everyone suffers due to ignorance. But ignorance can be overcome through the Eightfold Path that he advocated. This day is generally regarded as the birth day of Buddhism. Being an Eastern tradition, Bodhi Day has none of the associations with the solstice and seasonal changes found in other religious observances at this time of year. However, it does signify the point in time when the Buddha achieved enlightenment and escaped the endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth through reincarnation -- themes that are observed in other religions in December.

CHRISTIANITY: Any record of the date of birth of Yeshua of Nazareth (later known as Jesus Christ) has been lost. There is sufficient evidence in the Gospels to indicate that Yeshua was born in the fall, but this seems to have been unknown to early Christians. By the beginning of the 4th century CE, there was intense interest in choosing a day to celebrate Yeshua's birthday. The western church leaders selected DEC-25 because this was already the date recognized throughout the Roman Empire as the birthday of various Pagan gods. 1,2 Since there was no central Christian authority at the time, it took centuries before the tradition was universally accepted:
Eastern churches began to celebrate Christmas after 375 CE.
The church in Jerusalem started in the 7th century.
Ireland started in the 5th century
Austria, England and Switzerland in the 8th
Slavic lands in the 9th and 10th centuries. 3

Many symbols and practices associated with Christmas are of Pagan origin: holly, ivy, mistletoe, yule log, the giving of gifts, decorated evergreen tree, magical reindeer, etc. Polydor Virgil, an early British Christian, said "Dancing, masques, mummeries, stageplays, and other such Christmas disorders now in use with Christians, were derived from these Roman Saturnalian and Bacchanalian festivals; which should cause all pious Christians eternally to abominate them." In Massachusetts, Puritans unsuccessfully tried to ban Christmas entirely during the 17th century, because of its heathenism. The English Parliament abolished Christmas in 1647. Some contemporary Christian faith groups do not celebrate Christmas. Included among these was the Worldwide Church of God (before its recent conversion to Evangelical Christianity) and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

DRUIDISM: Druids and Druidesses formed the professional class in ancient Celtic society. They performed the functions of modern day priests, teachers, ambassadors, astronomers, genealogists, philosophers, musicians, theologians, scientists, poets and judges. Druids led all public rituals, which were normally held within fenced groves of sacred trees. The solstice is the time of the death of the old sun and the birth of the dark-half of the year. It was called "Alban Arthuan by the ancient Druids. It is the end of month of the Elder Tree and the start of the month of the Birch. The three days before Yule is a magical time. This is the time of the Serpent Days or transformation...The Elder and Birch stand at the entrance to Annwn or Celtic underworld where all life was formed. Like several other myths they guard the entrance to the underworld. This is the time the Sun God journey's thru the underworld to learn the secrets of death and life. And bring out those souls to be reincarnated." 14 A modern-day Druid, Amergin Aryson, has composed a Druidic ritual for the Winter Solstice.

INCA RELIGION: The ancient Incas celebrated a festival if Inti Raymi at the time of the Winter Solstice. It celebrates "the Festival of the Sun where the god of the Sun, Wiracocha, is honored." 16 Ceremonies were banned by the Roman Catholic conquistadores in the 16th century as part of their forced conversions of the Inca people to Christianity. A local group of Quecia Indians in Cusco, Peru revived the festival about 1950. It is now a major festival which begins in Cusco and proceeds to an ancient amphitheater a few miles away.

IRAN: Shabe-Yalda (a.k.a. Shab-e Yaldaa) is celebrated in Iran by followers of many religions. It originated in Zoroastrianism, the state religion which preceded Islam. The name refers to the birthday or rebirth of the sun. People gather at home around a korsee -- a low square table -- all night. They tell stories and read poetry. They eat watermelons, pomegranates and a special dried fruit/nut mix. Bonfires are lit outside.

ISLAM: During the period 1997 to 1999, the first day of the Islamic lunar month of Ramadan occurred in December. The nominal dates were 1997-DEC-31, 1998-DEC-20 and 1999-DEC-9. The actual date for the start of Ramadan depends upon the sighting of the crescent moon, and thus can be delayed by a few days from the nominal date. This is the holiest period in the Islamic year. It honors the lunar month in which the Qura'n was revealed by God to humanity. "It is during this month that Muslims observe the Fast of Ramadan. Lasting for the entire month, Muslims fast during the daylight hours and in the evening eat small meals and visit with friends and family. It is a time of worship and contemplation. A time to strengthen family and community ties." Because Ramadan is part of a lunar-based calendar, it starts about 11 days earlier each year. In the year 2000, the nominal date will be NOV-27. Ramadan is thus not associated with the winter solstice as are other religious celebrations. It is just by coincidence that it has occurred during December in recent years.

JUDAISM: Jews celebrate an 8 day festival of Hanukkah, (a.k.a. Feast of Lights, Festival of lights, Feast of Dedication, Chanukah, Chanukkah, Hanukah). It recalls the war fought by the Maccabees in the cause of religious freedom. Antiochus, the king of Syria, conquered Judea in the 2nd century BCE. He terminated worship in the Temple and stole the sacred lamp, the menorah, from before the altar. At the time of the solstice, they rededicated the Temple to a Pagan deity. Judah the Maccabee lead a band of rebels, and succeeding in retaking Jerusalem. They restored the temple and lit the menorah. It was exactly three years after the flame had been extinguished -- at the time of the Pagan rite. Although they had found only sufficient consecrated oil to last for 24 hours, the flames burned steadily for eight days. "Today's menorahs have nine branches; the ninth branch is for the shamash, or servant light, which is used to light the other eight candles. People eat potato latkes, exchange gifts, and play dreidel games. And as they gaze at the light of the menorah, they give thanks for the miracle in the Temple long ago." Modern-day Jews celebrate Hanukkah by lighting one candle for each of the eight days of the festival. Once a minor festival, it has been growing in importance in recent years, perhaps because of the pressure of Christmas.

NATIVE AMERICAN SPIRITUALITY:
The Pueblo tribe observe both the summer and winter solstices. Although the specific details of the rituals differ from pueblo to pueblo, "the rites are built around the sun, the coming new year and the rebirth of vegetation in the spring....Winter solstice rites include...prayerstick making, retreats, altars, emesis and prayers for increase."
The Hopi tribe "is dedicated to giving aid and direction to the sun which is ready to 'return' and give strength to budding life." Their ceremony is called "Soyal." It lasts for 20 days and includes "prayerstick making, purification, rituals and a concluding rabbit hunt, feast and blessing..."
There are countless stone structures created by Natives in the past to detect the solstices and equinoxes. One was called Calendar One by its modern-day finder. It is in a natural amphitheatre of about 20 acres in size in Vermont. From a stone enclosure in the center of the bowl, one can see a number of vertical rocks and natural features in the horizon which formed the edge of the bowl. At the solstices and equinoxes, the sun rises and sets at notches or peaks in the ridge which surrounded the calendar.

NEOPAGANISM: This is a group of religions which are attempted re-creations of ancient Pagan religions. Of these, Wicca is the most common; it is loosely based on ancient Celtic beliefs and practices. Wiccans recognize eight seasonal days of celebration. Four are minor sabbats and occur at the two solstices and the two equinoxes. The other are major sabbats which happen approximately halfway between an equinox and solstice. The winter solstice sabbat is often called Yule. It is a time for introspection, and planning for the future. Wiccans may celebrate the Sabbat on the evening before the time of the actual solstice, at sunrise on the morning of the solstice, or at the exact time of the astronomical event.

Monotheistic religions, like Judaism, Christianity and Islam, tend to view time as linear. It started with creation; the world as we know it will end at some time in the future. Aboriginal and Neopagan religions see time as circular and repetitive, with lunar (monthly) and solar (yearly) cycles. Their "...rituals guarantee the continuity of nature's cycles, which traditional human societies depend on for their sustenance."

Prehistoric Europe: Many remains of ancient stone structures can be found in Europe. Some date back many millennia BCE. Some appear to have religious/astronomical purposes; others are burial tombs. These structures were built before writing was developed. One can only speculate on the significance of the winter solstice to the builders. Two examples are:
In Maeshowe, (Orkneys, Scotland) there is a chambered cairn built on a leveled area with a surrounding bank and ditch. It has been carbon dated at 2750 BCE. Inside the cairn is a stone structure with a long entry tunnel. The structure is aligned so that sunlight can shine along the entry passage into the interior of the megalith, and illuminate the back of the structure. This happens at sunrise at the winter solstice. Starting in the late 1990's, live video and still images have been broadcast to the world via the Internet.

One of the most impressive prehistoric monuments in Europe is at Newgrange, in Brugh-na-Boyne, County Meath, in eastern Ireland. It covers an area of one acre, and has an entrance passage that is almost 60 feet (18 m) long. Above the entrance way is a stone box that allows the light from the sun to penetrate to the back of the cairn at sunrise on the winter solstice. Live video and stills from this site are also available on the Internet. It has been dated at about 3,300 BCE; it is one of the oldest structures in the world.

Vampyres: We use the term "vampyres" to refer to real individuals who have a need to ingest small quantities of blood in order to maintain their strength. They are often confused with those to which we refer as vampires -- imaginary beings who exist only in religious legends, creative fiction and horror movies. Vampyres celebrate "the Long Night," a festival at the Winter Solstice. Many groups of vampyres gather together at this time to celebrate. "It is a festival of community where everyone relaxes and socializes. It is also the traditional night to recognize new members of the community or a coven, or to perform rites of passage."

KWANZAA, the African-American cultural holiday conceived and developed by Dr. Maulana Ron Karenga, was first celebrated on December 26, 1966.

[AYFR]

Well, let's go back a bit before Paul pushed Christ on the Romans, k? Or at least his version of Christ.

If it weren't for the pagans, there'd be no reason for the season....there's nothing Paul gave us to show when Christ was born..but plenty of historical evidence to suggest much of Paul's writings were taken from pagan traditions in order to get rid of the pagans and absorb them into the new religion...

Also, bringing the history up to speed, if it weren't for Wal-Mart, consumption and good old American greed, there'd be no need for the season...and hence, consumption has given us a reason for the season....

See, there's no peace on earth, nor goodwill toward and no intention of making any.....it's give me, give me, give me...season..:Q
Pagans are sinners. Everyone is a sinner.
Jesus was born in the late spring or summer. That was historically when the census were taken.
Paul did not invent Christianity, he wasn't even one of the original twelve.
Paul's Christ is the same Christ as the one in the Gospels. He did notinvent his own Messiah. He followed the teachings of Christ.

The reason Christmas came about was to celebrate the birth of Jesus, that is the way it is supposed to be no matter what the people of today try and make it out to be.

Peace on Earth is impossible because we are imperfect. Goodwill is not gone nor is good intentions.
If goodwill were gone there would be no charities, no helping others, no soup kitchens, and etc.

[AYFR]

Christmas is supposed to be about Christ, who was born in the fall according to the Bible (the whole paying taxes after the crop was harvested) . . . yet those who don't believe, celebrate it as well . . . and there is that whole Pagans were celebrating long before "Christmas" . . . and other December celebrations . . .

December celebrations in many faiths and locations - ancient and modern: (http://www.religioustolerance.org/winter_solstice.htm)

ANCIENT BRAZIL: Brazilian archeologists have found an assembly of 127 granite blocks arranged equidistant from each other. They apparently form an ancient astronomical observatory. One of the stones marked the position of the sun at the time of the winter solstice and were probably used in religious rituals.

ANCIENT EGYPT: The god-man/savior Osiris died and was entombed on DEC-21. "At midnight, the priests emerged from an inner shrine crying 'The Virgin has brought forth! The light is waxing" and showing the image of a baby to the worshipers."

ANCIENT GREECE: The winter solstice ritual was called Lenaea, the Festival of the Wild Women. In very ancient times, a man representing the harvest god Dionysos was torn to pieces and eaten by a gang of women on this day. Later in the ritual, Dionysos would be reborn as a baby. By classical times, the human sacrifice had been replaced by the killing of a goat. The women's role had changed to that of funeral mourners and observers of the birth.

ANCIENT ROME: Saturnalia began as a feast day for Saturn on DEC-17 and of Ops (DEC-19). About 50 BCE, both were later converted into two day celebrations. During the Empire, the festivals were combined to cover a full week: DEC-17 to 23.

By the third century CE, there were many religions and spiritual mysteries being followed within the Roman Empire. Many, if not most, celebrated the birth of their god-man near the time of the solstice. Emperor Aurelian (270 to 275 CE) blended a number of Pagan solstice celebrations of the nativity of such god-men/saviors as Appolo, Attis, Baal, Dionysus, Helios, Hercules, Horus, Mithra, Osiris, Perseus, and Theseus into a single festival called the "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun" on DEC-25. At the time, Mithraism and Christianity were fierce competitors. Aurelian had even declared Mithraism the official religion of the Roman Empire in 274 CE. Christianity won out by becoming the new official religion in the 4th century CE.

ATHEISTS: There has been a recent increase in solstice observances by Atheists in the U.S. For example, The American Atheists and local Atheist groups have organized celebrations for 2000-DEC, including the Great North Texas Infidel Bash in Weatherford TX; Winter Solstice bash in Roselle NJ; Winter Solstice Parties in York PA, Boise ID, North Bethesda MD, and Des Moines IA; Winter Solstice Gatherings in Phoenix AZ and Denver CO: a Year End Awards and Review Dinner (YEAR) in San Francisco, CA.

BUDDHISM: On DEC-8, or on the Sunday immediately preceding, Buddhists celebrate Bodhi Day (a.k.a. Rohatsu). It recalls the day in 596 BCE, when the Buddha achieved enlightenment. He had left his family and possessions behind at the age of 29, and sought the meaning of life -- particularly the reasons for its hardships. He studied under many spiritual teachers without success. Finally, he sat under a pipal tree and vowed that he would stay there until he found what he was seeking. On the morning of the eighth day, he realized that everyone suffers due to ignorance. But ignorance can be overcome through the Eightfold Path that he advocated. This day is generally regarded as the birth day of Buddhism. Being an Eastern tradition, Bodhi Day has none of the associations with the solstice and seasonal changes found in other religious observances at this time of year. However, it does signify the point in time when the Buddha achieved enlightenment and escaped the endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth through reincarnation -- themes that are observed in other religions in December.

CHRISTIANITY: Any record of the date of birth of Yeshua of Nazareth (later known as Jesus Christ) has been lost. There is sufficient evidence in the Gospels to indicate that Yeshua was born in the fall, but this seems to have been unknown to early Christians. By the beginning of the 4th century CE, there was intense interest in choosing a day to celebrate Yeshua's birthday. The western church leaders selected DEC-25 because this was already the date recognized throughout the Roman Empire as the birthday of various Pagan gods. 1,2 Since there was no central Christian authority at the time, it took centuries before the tradition was universally accepted:
Eastern churches began to celebrate Christmas after 375 CE.
The church in Jerusalem started in the 7th century.
Ireland started in the 5th century
Austria, England and Switzerland in the 8th
Slavic lands in the 9th and 10th centuries. 3

Many symbols and practices associated with Christmas are of Pagan origin: holly, ivy, mistletoe, yule log, the giving of gifts, decorated evergreen tree, magical reindeer, etc. Polydor Virgil, an early British Christian, said "Dancing, masques, mummeries, stageplays, and other such Christmas disorders now in use with Christians, were derived from these Roman Saturnalian and Bacchanalian festivals; which should cause all pious Christians eternally to abominate them." In Massachusetts, Puritans unsuccessfully tried to ban Christmas entirely during the 17th century, because of its heathenism. The English Parliament abolished Christmas in 1647. Some contemporary Christian faith groups do not celebrate Christmas. Included among these was the Worldwide Church of God (before its recent conversion to Evangelical Christianity) and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

DRUIDISM: Druids and Druidesses formed the professional class in ancient Celtic society. They performed the functions of modern day priests, teachers, ambassadors, astronomers, genealogists, philosophers, musicians, theologians, scientists, poets and judges. Druids led all public rituals, which were normally held within fenced groves of sacred trees. The solstice is the time of the death of the old sun and the birth of the dark-half of the year. It was called "Alban Arthuan by the ancient Druids. It is the end of month of the Elder Tree and the start of the month of the Birch. The three days before Yule is a magical time. This is the time of the Serpent Days or transformation...The Elder and Birch stand at the entrance to Annwn or Celtic underworld where all life was formed. Like several other myths they guard the entrance to the underworld. This is the time the Sun God journey's thru the underworld to learn the secrets of death and life. And bring out those souls to be reincarnated." 14 A modern-day Druid, Amergin Aryson, has composed a Druidic ritual for the Winter Solstice.

INCA RELIGION: The ancient Incas celebrated a festival if Inti Raymi at the time of the Winter Solstice. It celebrates "the Festival of the Sun where the god of the Sun, Wiracocha, is honored." 16 Ceremonies were banned by the Roman Catholic conquistadores in the 16th century as part of their forced conversions of the Inca people to Christianity. A local group of Quecia Indians in Cusco, Peru revived the festival about 1950. It is now a major festival which begins in Cusco and proceeds to an ancient amphitheater a few miles away.

IRAN: Shabe-Yalda (a.k.a. Shab-e Yaldaa) is celebrated in Iran by followers of many religions. It originated in Zoroastrianism, the state religion which preceded Islam. The name refers to the birthday or rebirth of the sun. People gather at home around a korsee -- a low square table -- all night. They tell stories and read poetry. They eat watermelons, pomegranates and a special dried fruit/nut mix. Bonfires are lit outside.

ISLAM: During the period 1997 to 1999, the first day of the Islamic lunar month of Ramadan occurred in December. The nominal dates were 1997-DEC-31, 1998-DEC-20 and 1999-DEC-9. The actual date for the start of Ramadan depends upon the sighting of the crescent moon, and thus can be delayed by a few days from the nominal date. This is the holiest period in the Islamic year. It honors the lunar month in which the Qura'n was revealed by God to humanity. "It is during this month that Muslims observe the Fast of Ramadan. Lasting for the entire month, Muslims fast during the daylight hours and in the evening eat small meals and visit with friends and family. It is a time of worship and contemplation. A time to strengthen family and community ties." Because Ramadan is part of a lunar-based calendar, it starts about 11 days earlier each year. In the year 2000, the nominal date will be NOV-27. Ramadan is thus not associated with the winter solstice as are other religious celebrations. It is just by coincidence that it has occurred during December in recent years.

JUDAISM: Jews celebrate an 8 day festival of Hanukkah, (a.k.a. Feast of Lights, Festival of lights, Feast of Dedication, Chanukah, Chanukkah, Hanukah). It recalls the war fought by the Maccabees in the cause of religious freedom. Antiochus, the king of Syria, conquered Judea in the 2nd century BCE. He terminated worship in the Temple and stole the sacred lamp, the menorah, from before the altar. At the time of the solstice, they rededicated the Temple to a Pagan deity. Judah the Maccabee lead a band of rebels, and succeeding in retaking Jerusalem. They restored the temple and lit the menorah. It was exactly three years after the flame had been extinguished -- at the time of the Pagan rite. Although they had found only sufficient consecrated oil to last for 24 hours, the flames burned steadily for eight days. "Today's menorahs have nine branches; the ninth branch is for the shamash, or servant light, which is used to light the other eight candles. People eat potato latkes, exchange gifts, and play dreidel games. And as they gaze at the light of the menorah, they give thanks for the miracle in the Temple long ago." Modern-day Jews celebrate Hanukkah by lighting one candle for each of the eight days of the festival. Once a minor festival, it has been growing in importance in recent years, perhaps because of the pressure of Christmas.

NATIVE AMERICAN SPIRITUALITY:
The Pueblo tribe observe both the summer and winter solstices. Although the specific details of the rituals differ from pueblo to pueblo, "the rites are built around the sun, the coming new year and the rebirth of vegetation in the spring....Winter solstice rites include...prayerstick making, retreats, altars, emesis and prayers for increase."
The Hopi tribe "is dedicated to giving aid and direction to the sun which is ready to 'return' and give strength to budding life." Their ceremony is called "Soyal." It lasts for 20 days and includes "prayerstick making, purification, rituals and a concluding rabbit hunt, feast and blessing..."
There are countless stone structures created by Natives in the past to detect the solstices and equinoxes. One was called Calendar One by its modern-day finder. It is in a natural amphitheatre of about 20 acres in size in Vermont. From a stone enclosure in the center of the bowl, one can see a number of vertical rocks and natural features in the horizon which formed the edge of the bowl. At the solstices and equinoxes, the sun rises and sets at notches or peaks in the ridge which surrounded the calendar.

NEOPAGANISM: This is a group of religions which are attempted re-creations of ancient Pagan religions. Of these, Wicca is the most common; it is loosely based on ancient Celtic beliefs and practices. Wiccans recognize eight seasonal days of celebration. Four are minor sabbats and occur at the two solstices and the two equinoxes. The other are major sabbats which happen approximately halfway between an equinox and solstice. The winter solstice sabbat is often called Yule. It is a time for introspection, and planning for the future. Wiccans may celebrate the Sabbat on the evening before the time of the actual solstice, at sunrise on the morning of the solstice, or at the exact time of the astronomical event.

Monotheistic religions, like Judaism, Christianity and Islam, tend to view time as linear. It started with creation; the world as we know it will end at some time in the future. Aboriginal and Neopagan religions see time as circular and repetitive, with lunar (monthly) and solar (yearly) cycles. Their "...rituals guarantee the continuity of nature's cycles, which traditional human societies depend on for their sustenance."

Prehistoric Europe: Many remains of ancient stone structures can be found in Europe. Some date back many millennia BCE. Some appear to have religious/astronomical purposes; others are burial tombs. These structures were built before writing was developed. One can only speculate on the significance of the winter solstice to the builders. Two examples are:
In Maeshowe, (Orkneys, Scotland) there is a chambered cairn built on a leveled area with a surrounding bank and ditch. It has been carbon dated at 2750 BCE. Inside the cairn is a stone structure with a long entry tunnel. The structure is aligned so that sunlight can shine along the entry passage into the interior of the megalith, and illuminate the back of the structure. This happens at sunrise at the winter solstice. Starting in the late 1990's, live video and still images have been broadcast to the world via the Internet.

One of the most impressive prehistoric monuments in Europe is at Newgrange, in Brugh-na-Boyne, County Meath, in eastern Ireland. It covers an area of one acre, and has an entrance passage that is almost 60 feet (18 m) long. Above the entrance way is a stone box that allows the light from the sun to penetrate to the back of the cairn at sunrise on the winter solstice. Live video and stills from this site are also available on the Internet. It has been dated at about 3,300 BCE; it is one of the oldest structures in the world.

Vampyres: We use the term "vampyres" to refer to real individuals who have a need to ingest small quantities of blood in order to maintain their strength. They are often confused with those to which we refer as vampires -- imaginary beings who exist only in religious legends, creative fiction and horror movies. Vampyres celebrate "the Long Night," a festival at the Winter Solstice. Many groups of vampyres gather together at this time to celebrate. "It is a festival of community where everyone relaxes and socializes. It is also the traditional night to recognize new members of the community or a coven, or to perform rites of passage."

KWANZAA, the African-American cultural holiday conceived and developed by Dr. Maulana Ron Karenga, was first celebrated on December 26, 1966.
You are right Christmas is about the birth of Christ BUT without sin or sinners there would be no need for Jesus.
Christmas is about giving. God GAVE us the ultimate gift because he loved us and wanted us free from sin.

[MW]

I wish God would give me Peace and I mean peace of mind. :frazzled

Well, he does perform miracles . . .

[Saguaro]

Pagans are sinners. Everyone is a sinner.
Jesus was born in the late spring or summer. That was historically when the census were taken.
Paul did not invent Christianity, he wasn't even one of the original twelve.
Paul's Christ is the same Christ as the one in the Gospels. He did notinvent his own Messiah. He followed the teachings of Christ.

The reason Christmas came about was to celebrate the birth of Jesus, that is the way it is supposed to be no matter what the people of today try and make it out to be.

Peace on Earth is impossible because we are imperfect. Goodwill is not gone nor is good intentions.
If goodwill were gone there would be no charities, no helping others, no soup kitchens, and etc.

Who qualifies as a Pagan ?

[AYFR]

pa·gan (pgn)
n.
1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.
adj.
1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.

Doesn't matter though, because everyone is a sinner.

[MW]

Those who do not believe in an organized religion? :shrug

[Kurtz]

Sin is a questionable concept.
What is sin?

[AYFR]

sin 1 (sn)
n.
1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2. Theology
a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
b. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
3. Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.
intr.v. sinned, sin·ning, sins
1. To violate a religious or moral law.
2. To commit an offense or violation.

[MW]

To violate a religious or moral law.

If I eat ham for dinner, I have sinned in the Jewish and Adventist religious law, but Christianity wouldn't think about it.

So sin is based upon the religion choice?

[Saguaro]

pa·gan (pgn)
n.
1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.
adj.
1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.

Doesn't matter though, because everyone is a sinner.

Would you consider the native Amerians pagan ? They seem to fit that nice little mold

[AYFR]

Yes but it doesn't matter. Why all these questions about pagans?

[Saguaro]

Well Rev, I believe that everyone has a right to believe in what they want to . I consider the native Americans to have the purest of religions. They never started a war over religion

[MW]

Well Rev, I believe that everyone has a right to believe in what they want to . I consider the native Americans to have the purest of religions. They never started a war over religion

:agree

[Cookie Parker]

If I eat ham for dinner, I have sinned in the Jewish and Adventist religious law, but Christianity wouldn't think about it.

So sin is based upon the religion choice?


I'd say yes....and they seem to change...what used to be "Thou Shalt Not Kill" for centuries with Christianity was found to be an "error" in translation..and someone recently, who is so many centuries removed from the original translators who were closer to the language, now says it's "Thou Shalt Not Murder"....right in time for Christians to support George's war....

Killing = good

Murder = bad...

at least for now...

[April15]

Having a daughter in law that hails from a muslim family I can tell you pork is out with them too! Bacon and eggs for breakfast just gags the shit out of them.
I guess that means I am sinning to them but not for Christians. The dichotomy of the GODS.

[Cookie Parker]

Shouldn't that be the dichotomy of God...aren't they using the same God?

[Saguaro]

Those who believe without real thought will follow anywhere without thinking.

[April15]

Shouldn't that be the dichotomy of God...aren't they using the same God?You wouldn't think so to hear the different stories about how to live for each one.

[Cookie Parker]

You wouldn't think so to hear the different stories about how to live for each one.

I know....amazing, isn't it? Course, then, so many different Christian religions and some are "saved" by faith, some by works, and some because their minister is more wealthy than others...:Q

[MW]

I know....amazing, isn't it? Course, then, so many different Christian religions and some are "saved" by faith, some by works, and some because their minister is more wealthy than others...:Q

:lmao

[Trueblue]

God sent Jesus to tell us how to live. That's the gift, the message, not the sacrifice of life. The responsibility for peace on Earth lies with us-Jesus already told us the directions.

[issac the dragon]

I disagree with just about everything you have said so far Reverend. I hear what Christians say, and I see what they do. I know what they have done, and I have a very good idea what they plan on doing.

All your religion is in my opinion is an excuse to justify the things you do to other people. Christmas has nothing to do with religion. If you believe in peace, stop making war in order to take what belongs to others. And giving a little cheap slop to people twice a year doesn't make up for exploiting them the rest of the year.

Respect others, allow them to keep what they have. You know, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Christianity might be all right if people actually practiced it, but I could count on one hand the people I have known who do.

[Kurtz]

Those who believe without real thought will follow anywhere without thinking.

:clap :clap :clap
For real!

[AYFR]

Well Rev, I believe that everyone has a right to believe in what they want to . I consider the native Americans to have the purest of religions. They never started a war over religion
That is fine, not the point of this thread.
I'd say yes....and they seem to change...what used to be "Thou Shalt Not Kill" for centuries with Christianity was found to be an "error" in translation..and someone recently, who is so many centuries removed from the original translators who were closer to the language, now says it's "Thou Shalt Not Murder"....right in time for Christians to support George's war....

Killing = good

Murder = bad...

at least for now...
Umm stereotyping is stupid. Not everyone that is a Christian is supportive of the war. ALSO it was a translation error, it is thou shalt not murder. Research it if you don't believe me.

I disagree with just about everything you have said so far Reverend. I hear what Christians say, and I see what they do. I know what they have done, and I have a very good idea what they plan on doing.

All your religion is in my opinion is an excuse to justify the things you do to other people. Christmas has nothing to do with religion. If you believe in peace, stop making war in order to take what belongs to others. And giving a little cheap slop to people twice a year doesn't make up for exploiting them the rest of the year.

Respect others, allow them to keep what they have. You know, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Christianity might be all right if people actually practiced it, but I could count on one hand the people I have known who do.
So you know what EVERY Christian thinks, says, and does. Wow you must be really good.

I am getting real tired of people seeing a few fake Christians and saying that is the way we all are. I am also getting sick that people take Christians that make mistakes and act like that is the way it is all the time. When y'all stop making mistakes you let me know.

Christians ARE NOT MAKING WAR.

Love how this thread got off the topic and turned into another Christian bashfest.

[issac the dragon]

Reverend, why don't the people like yourself set some standards so that people like me will be able to tell who the 'real' Christians are.

I don't recall a large number of Christians standing up and stating that starting a war against Iraq was unchristian, and that the people behind it were not Christians.

If real Christians want to distinguish themselves from the false Christians, it would be a great help to the confused. All I hear is everyone in the Bush admin. saying what fine upstanding Christians they are. And the Klu Klux Klan. The Aryan Nation. The homophobes, men who hate women. You know all of this.

[AYFR]

The Bush admin lies; you know that. The KKK and The Aryan Nation are not Christians no matter what they say.

Talking about Christians like people do is as stupid as saying all Muslims are terrorists.
Not all muslims are terrorists it is only a small percentage just like it is only a small percentage of Chritsians that give the rest a bad name.



I do what I can but I can not force anyone to do anything.

[issac the dragon]

Reverend, I apologize for being bitchy. I've got a tremendous pain in my neck and I am grouchy. Not your fault.

None the less, I think that it is way past time for the people of good will to stand up and make it known that the people who do wrong and claim to be members of a religion are liars. Where are the headlines denouncing the wrong doers in the political arena?

I realize that it isn't your responsibility. But if you all remain silent, they will continue to co-op your religion. I am not alone. People all over the world watch what happens in this country and hear the people responsible claim to be Christians, and then all they hear is slience.

[crazierthanever]

Reverend, I apologize for being bitchy. I've got a tremendous pain in my neck and I am grouchy. Not your fault.

None the less, I think that it is way past time for the people of good will to stand up and make it known that the people who do wrong and claim to be members of a religion are liars. Where are the headlines denouncing the wrong doers in the political arena?

I realize that it isn't your responsibility. But if you all remain silent, they will continue to co-op your religion. I am not alone. People all over the world watch what happens in this country and hear the people responsible claim to be Christians, and then all they hear is slience.

Amazing post! I so completely and totally agree!:theman

[issac the dragon]

:rofl2 Especially the part about me being bitchy.

[crazierthanever]

:rofl2 Especially the part about me being bitchy.

Since you weren't bitchy when I was watching I have no opinion on that part of the post :wink:tiptoe

[sparks]

Jesus is the reason for the season. That is what we all have been told; BUT what is I were to tell you that that is not completely accurate?
What then?
Yes Jesus's birth is the reason we celebrate Christmas but what was the reason he was born?

Here is a passage that might clarify things.



Without sin or sinners there would be no need for Jesus and without Jesus no Christmas.


The real reason for the season is you, me and all of us.

Odd, but I was reading a commentary last night about this very subject.

You're absolutely correct Rev...Jesus was born to cleanse the sinners of the world. So those who may be feeling low, or perhaps carrying some guilt, or perhaps feeling "less than" should rejoice. They are set free by the highest authority. :)

[Trueblue]

http://www.wfn.org/2007/11/msg00106.html

Methodist Bishops Call for Immediate Withdrawal From Iraq

[And for support for the Iraqi people]

LAKE JUNALUSKA, N.C. (UMNS) - Declaring war "incompatible with the teachings and example of Christ," the bishops of The United Methodist Church called on leaders of all nations to begin an immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

The bishops also urged against deploying additional troops to Iraq and against establishing permanent military bases in the Middle Eastern country.

"This resolution is long overdue," said retired Bishop Clifton Ives before the Council of Bishops voted its approval on Nov. 9.

The action came during the council's semi-annual meeting at a United Methodist retreat center in western North Carolina. The council represents 11.5 million United Methodists in the United States, Africa, Europe and the Philippines. About 125 active and retired bishops from across the globe attended the Nov. 4-9 gathering.

In addition to calling for the immediate safe and full withdrawal of troops, the bishops called on the United States and other Coalition Force nations to initiate and support a plan for the reconstruction of Iraq, giving strong priority to the humanitarian and social needs of the Iraqi people. They urged increased support for veterans of the Iraq war and all wars.

The bishops said their position is based on Jesus Christ's call for "his followers to be peacemakers."

The resolution is the council's latest action questioning the Iraq war. In November 2005, the bishops urged U.S. President George W. Bush, who is United Methodist, to create a timeline to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq.

[AYFR]

Reverend, I apologize for being bitchy. I've got a tremendous pain in my neck and I am grouchy. Not your fault.

None the less, I think that it is way past time for the people of good will to stand up and make it known that the people who do wrong and claim to be members of a religion are liars. Where are the headlines denouncing the wrong doers in the political arena?

I realize that it isn't your responsibility. But if you all remain silent, they will continue to co-op your religion. I am not alone. People all over the world watch what happens in this country and hear the people responsible claim to be Christians, and then all they hear is slience.
Apology accepted and I agree Issac. The people are silent and that is what religions are being taken over by extremists.

Odd, but I was reading a commentary last night about this very subject.

You're absolutely correct Rev...Jesus was born to cleanse the sinners of the world. So those who may be feeling low, or perhaps carrying some guilt, or perhaps feeling "less than" should rejoice. They are set free by the highest authority. :)
:yep
http://www.wfn.org/2007/11/msg00106.html

Methodist Bishops Call for Immediate Withdrawal From Iraq

[And for support for the Iraqi people]

Cool, won't happen, but cool.

[Trueblue]

http://www.rense.com/general68/wars.htm

Although United Methodist leadership has opposed the Iraq war in the past, this is the first time that individual bishops have confessed to a personal failure to publicly challenge the buildup to the war.

11-12-5

[waterdog]

That is fine, not the point of this thread.

Umm stereotyping is stupid. Not everyone that is a Christian is supportive of the war. ALSO it was a translation error, it is thou shalt not murder. Research it if you don't believe me.


So you know what EVERY Christian thinks, says, and does. Wow you must be really good.

I am getting real tired of people seeing a few fake Christians and saying that is the way we all are. I am also getting sick that people take Christians that make mistakes and act like that is the way it is all the time. When y'all stop making mistakes you let me know.

Christians ARE NOT MAKING WAR.

Love how this thread got off the topic and turned into another Christian bashfest.

Not to join in the "Christian bashfest" Rev, but that bolded statement is total BS. To quote a appropriate line from the Davinci Code, "As long as there has been one true God, there has been killing in his name."

Christians have made war for centuries (ever hear of the Crusades?), and still are right up to today. George W. Bush has claimed to be a Christian (right?) and he started the current war with Iraq.

[AYFR]

I mean Christians are not making currently making war and haven't for a while.
I said that we ARE not making war not that we have not in the past.

When ARE is used in the English language it mean the present.

[waterdog]

I mean Christians are not making currently making war and haven't for a while.
I said that we ARE not making war not that we have not in the past.

When ARE is used in the English language it mean the present.

Yeah, I understand completely, do you?

As in George Bush, a Christian, started a war that IS presently going on.


You feeling OK today Rev? Cause you seem a little out of touch with world events. :rofl

[Kurtz]

I mean Christians are not making currently making war and haven't for a while.
I said that we ARE not making war not that we have not in the past.

When ARE is used in the English language it mean the present.

Yeah, I understand completely, do you?

As in George Bush, a Christian, started a war that IS presently going on.


You feeling OK today Rev? Cause you seem a little out of touch with world events. :rofl

Does the term evil-doers ring a bell, Rev? :whistle

[AYFR]

So Bush now represents all Christians now does he. This war in Iraq is not being fought fo Christian beliefs. IT IS NOT A CHRISTIAN WAR

[Trueblue]

As there is not a unified body of Christians to make war, this comment doesn't make sense to me. How can you say that Christians aren't making war?

Bush has used his theology repeatedly in the last seven years to justify whatever he wanted to do.

[AYFR]

As there is not a unified body of Christians to make war, this comment doesn't make sense to me. How can you say that Christians aren't making war?

Bush has used his theology repeatedly in the last seven years to justify whatever he wanted to do.

As there is not a unified body of Christians to make war, says it all.

[April15]

Yeah, I understand completely, do you?

As in George Bush, a Christian, started a war that IS presently going on.


You feeling OK today Rev? Cause you seem a little out of touch with world events. :roflBush being christian is not the reason he went to war. He is following the PNAC plan and has a vendetta.

[April15]

As much as i dislike the war and Bush the rev is correct on this one. Now if the Pope had deciede to start the war you guys might have an issue.

[AYFR]

Thank you April15

[Saguaro]

The reasoning: Bush makes a big deal of his faith, flaunts it .The religious right choose him because of his faith. Bush starts an unjustifed war with Iraq.Therefore, a religious war

I don't agree with it .Bush started this was because of his daddy

[AYFR]

Wrong Bush starting this war does not make it a religious war, nor does it mean it is a Christian war.

Your reasoning is flawed.

All of our presidents have claimed to be religious and most Christian, SO are you also saying that WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korean and other wars are also Christian wars?

[April15]

The reasoning: Bush makes a big deal of his faith, flaunts it .The religious right choose him because of his faith. Bush starts an unjustifed war with Iraq.Therefore, a religious war

I don't agree with it .Bush started this was because of his daddyI am sorry but this act of aggression is not religious. It is a part of the PNAC mission statement. That Bush has religion is just not cutting it for a reason to go to war. I am sure that if it was for religious reasons mosques would have been the first things blown to smithereens. But they have been sacrosanct and protected.

[Saguaro]

Hello , did either of you read my last statement ?

[AYFR]

I want to thank all those that have twisted this thread into a bash Bush and bash Christian thread.

We get the picture, Bush suddenly speaks for all Christians (I guess that means Ahmadinejad speaks for all Islamists) and the religious extremists represent the whole.

[AYFR]

Guess we over looked it Sag sorry.

[Saguaro]

:slap , next time read everything :D

[April15]

Sag,
My post was for those who would still feel it is a religious war.
Now you know I am an atheist so I have nothing to gain from my view on this matter.

[crazierthanever]

I want to thank all those that have twisted this thread into a bash Bush and bash Christian thread.

We get the picture, Bush suddenly speaks for all Christians (I guess that means Ahmadinejad speaks for all Islamists) and the religious extremists represent the whole.


Uh-oh. For a minute there I thought you had your undies in a bunch! I do hope you're feeling better now. Seriously.

[waterdog]

Hey, I never said that the Iraq war is a "religious war".

I was just taking issue with Rev's comment that Christians don't start wars.

Christians ARE NOT MAKING WAR.

They have and still do start wars. Y'all can argue over why all you want, as that was not my point.


Also, I never said that George W. Bush "represents ALL Christians".

So Bush now represents all Christians now does he. This war in Iraq is not being fought fo Christian beliefs. IT IS NOT A CHRISTIAN WAR

Heaven forbid. I don't even want anyone to think he represents all Americans!
But sadly, most of the rest of the world probably does think that, as he is the one they see in the news making dumbass statements and starting an illconceived war. A war that was (sorry to be redundant) started by a Christian.

[AYFR]

Waterdog I am talking about the Christian religion. War is not being made in the name of Christianity.
Even Bush who says he is a Christian is not fighting this war in the name of Christianity.

[Kurtz]

Waterdog I am talking about the Christian religion. War is not being made in the name of Christianity.
Even Bush who says he is a Christian is not fighting this war in the name of Christianity.

That would depend on one's definition of "war," wouldn't it? :whistle

Lots of Christians believe they are at war to save their culture here in America.

[crazierthanever]

That would depend on one's definition of "war," wouldn't it? :whistle

Lots of Christians believe they are at war to save their culture here in America.

Many if not most fundamentalist Christians do, I believe.

[Trueblue]

Hey, I never said that the Iraq war is a "religious war".

I was just taking issue with Rev's comment that Christians don't start wars.

Exactly.

[AYFR]

That would depend on one's definition of "war," wouldn't it? :whistle

Lots of Christians believe they are at war to save their culture here in America.

Many if not most fundamentalist Christians do, I believe.

None that I know believe that. The only ones I know of say that the war in Iraq is just a battle against the WOT