ElBaradei: UN has no evidence Iran is making nuclear weapons

[Yellowdogtexan]

The IAEA was proved right in Iraq and were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Once again, the UN and the IAEA are going on record that the bush claims about Iran are bogus. http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=86336The head of the United Nations' International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reiterated on Sunday that he had no evidence Iran is building nuclear weapons and accused US leaders of adding "fuel to the fire" with recent bellicose rhetoric. "I have not received any information that there is a concrete active nuclear weapons program going on right now," Mohamed ElBaradei told CNN.

"Even if Iran were to be working on a nuclear weapon ... they are at least a few years from having such a weapon," he added, citing assessments by US officials themselves.

"At this stage we need to continue to work through creative diplomacy ... as I don't see any other solution than diplomacy and inspections," he said.

The White House Friday rejected any parallels between its Iran rhetoric and the run-up to the Iraq invasion, after fresh sanctions on Tehran and escalating US warnings fueled comparisons to the months before the 2003 invasion.The IAEA tried to warn the US about the stupidity of the war in Iraq and the bushies ignored these warnings because the war in Iraq was based on fixed intelligence and lies. The bushies are trying the same set of lies against Iran and I hope that we have learned something.

[Wabash]

Yet, the US, France, England and Germany have all expressed independent concern in this area! Hmmmmmmm...do you think it's just the Bush Bunch? I don't!

The IAEA is NOT the Be All and End All in this area! Furthermore, there were small quanities of WMDs found in Iraq. Also, I still maintain that Iraq could have moved their WMDs to Syria or buried them in that vast desert!

The military found huge quantities of arms and ammo, as well as an entire, well preserved, jet aircraft, buried out there......Unless one has Exact GPS positioning, things buried may never be found!


They are the enemy(axis of evil) and are constantly sending men and equipment into Iraq and have been behind other attacks against the US.

[Wabash]

Them having a nuke, makes perfect sense..........................to THEM and us!

Only a FOOL would believe that they want nuclear material for peaceful purposes!

[The Q]

Furthermore, there were small quanities of WMDs found in Iraq.


Isn't that an oxymoron?

ADQ

[Wabash]

Isn't that an oxymoron?

ADQ

Whatever you call it, doesn't change the fact that Iran is our enemy and peaceful negotiations will only let them get stronger. They have been behind a number of incidents that threaten us and Israel. It's not going to improve.

[Trueblue]

Isn't that an oxymoron?

ADQ

:rofl

Can Bush pull off another fraud like Iraq? :scared

This analyst was right the last time. Remember that, Wabby.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Furthermore, there were small quanities of WMDs found in Iraq. Also, I still maintain that Iraq could have moved their WMDs to Syria or buried them in that vast desert! You do realize that the two of the idiots who pushed this stupid claim were defeated in the 2006 elections (Curt Weldon and Ricky Santorum) for a reason. The claim had no merit and cost these two repug idiots their races (that and they were complete idiots). I can bury you with some fun facts here if need be. As for the claim these weapons were moved, this claim was investgated and rejected. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/23/us/23believers.html....an Army report that described roughly 500 munitions containing "degraded" mustard or sarin gas, all manufactured before the 1991 gulf war and found scattered through Iraq since 2003.

Such shells had previously been reported and do not change the government conclusion, the officials said.....

The final report of the group, by Charles A. Duelfer, special adviser on Iraqi weapons to the C.I.A., concluded that any stockpiles had been destroyed long before the war and that transfers to Syria were "unlikely." There is a great deal of information on this silly and stupid claim including the fact that these shells were actually reported by Saddam in December of 2002 to the UN and the United States and that these shells are so degraded that they are worthless.

If I need to dig the links for this articles and bury you with the facts, I will be glad to do so. Remember Weldon and Santorum were convinced and they are now unemployed.

[Wabash]

You do realize that the two of the idiots who pushed this stupid claim were defeated in the 2006 elections (Curt Weldon and Ricky Santorum) for a reason. The claim had no merit and cost these two repug idiots their races (that and they were complete idiots). I can bury you with some fun facts here if need be. As for the claim these weapons were moved, this claim was investgated and rejected. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/23/us/23believers.htmlThere is a great deal of information on this silly and stupid claim including the fact that these shells were actually reported by Saddam in December of 2002 to the UN and the United States and that these shells are so degraded that they are worthless.

If I need to dig the links for this articles and bury you with the facts, I will be glad to do so. Remember Weldon and Santorum were convinced and they are now unemployed.

That's NOT the only reason they were defeated! Too bad to, because these were pretty good guys and their replacements are suspect!
Furthermore, Duefler said "unlikely"! That's a guess, that is NOT proof of anything!
I stand by what I said...it would have been easy for Soddom to bury or move that stuff and Syria is as bad as Iran...they are the enemy as well!

Go ahead bring it on! I don't believe it !

[AYFR]

Do you think that Iran would actually let the IAEA know if it was devolping nukes?

[Yellowdogtexan]

That's NOT the only reason they were defeated! Too bad to, because these were pretty good guys and their replacements are suspect!They lost because they were complete idiots and tried to push a talking point that was too stupid for words. Just for fun, lets look at what was said about this stupid claim. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13480264/Pentagon officials told NBC News that the munitions are the same kind of ordnance the U.S. military has been gathering in Iraq for the past several years, and "not the WMD we were looking for when we went in this time."
The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the issue.

"We were able to determine that [the missile] is, in fact, degraded and ... is consistent with what we would expect from finding a munition that was dated back to pre-Gulf War," an intelligence official told NBC. "However, even in the degraded state, our assessment is that they could pose an up-to-lethal hazard if used in attacks against coalition forces." These shells were too degraded to be used as weapons. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3994672.htmlBut the intelligence officials said the munitions dated from before the 1991 Persian Gulf War and were for the most part badly deteriorated. "They are not in a condition where they could be used as designed," one intelligence official said.

"There is not new news from the coalition point of view," one official said, noting that weapons inspector Charles Duelfer predicted in a March 2005 report that such vintage weapons would continue to be found.David Kay had this amuing but accurate observation about these so-called wmds. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/22/AR2006062201475.htmlThey probably would have been intended for chemical attacks during the Iran-Iraq War, said David Kay, who headed the U.S. weapons-hunting team in Iraq from 2003 until early 2004.

He said experts on Iraq's chemical weapons are in "almost 100 percent agreement" that sarin nerve agent produced from the 1980s would no longer be dangerous.

"It is less toxic than most things that Americans have under their kitchen sink at this point," Kay said.It is no wonder that ricky santorum was voted out of office by such a large margin. He was an idiot and only a complete idiot would believe this claim.

[issac the dragon]

The UN told the truth. Bush lied. Who am I to believe?

There is something else that we may have to consider about the Bush/Cheney war mongering. If we go to war against a third Arab country, what will be the reaction of the people in the ME? It will possibly be considered proof that the US is going to try to conquer the whole ME, and try to force our religion on them also.

I did not come up with this idea. I read it in a newspaper. Since I read 5 a day, I don't remember which. But the idea is out there now. If the people in the ME decide that is what is going on, we will have WW111. How far do you think we should go to enrich the oil companies? Do we owe them our lives and our standard of living? I don't think so. Not to mention killing 100 million people in the ME easily.

I don't think the world needs to just say no to Bush. I think they, and the American people need to tell him if he starts another war, he is going to die. He and every member of his administration will be executed immediately.

[Wabash]

They lost because they were complete idiots and tried to push a talking point that was too stupid for words. Just for fun, lets look at what was said about this stupid claim. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13480264/These shells were too degraded to be used as weapons. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3994672.htmlDavid Kay had this amuing but accurate observation about these so-called wmds. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/22/AR2006062201475.htmlIt is no wonder that ricky santorum was voted out of office by such a large margin. He was an idiot and only a complete idiot would believe this claim.

Well, I love how you pick and choose snippets of certain stories with narrow paramaters!

What you showed here were little itty bitty pieces of a Giant Picture! The stuff that didn't turn out to be a whole lot.
What about the WMDs that were NOT found??????

The UN told the truth. Bush lied. Who am I to believe?

There is something else that we may have to consider about the Bush/Cheney war mongering. If we go to war against a third Arab country, what will be the reaction of the people in the ME? It will possibly be considered proof that the US is going to try to conquer the whole ME, and try to force our religion on them also.

I did not come up with this idea. I read it in a newspaper. Since I read 5 a day, I don't remember which. But the idea is out there now. If the people in the ME decide that is what is going on, we will have WW111. How far do you think we should go to enrich the oil companies? Do we owe them our lives and our standard of living? I don't think so. Not to mention killing 100 million people in the ME easily.

I don't think the world needs to just say no to Bush. I think they, and the American people need to tell him if he starts another war, he is going to die. He and every member of his administration will be executed immediately.

Well, hell woman...You'd believe a group of irrelevant Commie Pinkos over your own President? That says it all!
We don't need to go to war with another country, we've gone over this before...about 2 weeks ago!

As for your last paragraph....what utter bullshit! But, coming from you a Commie Pinko supporter...no surprise at all! Actually...predictable!

Get Us Out of the UN!!!!

[Yellowdogtexan]

What you showed here were little itty bitty pieces of a Giant Picture! The stuff that didn't turn out to be a whole lot.
What about the WMDs that were NOT found??????That is because they did not exist. You can not find something that does not exist. The UN Inspectors were right and bush lied about the so-called wmds to get us into a war. In fact, it turns out that the UN had the only accurate intelligence about what was going on in Iraq compared to the fixed facts and intelligence used by bush to sell the war in Iraq. http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/newsweek/020904.htmlThere was one group whose prewar estimates of Iraqi nuclear, chemical and biological capabilities have turned out to be devastatingly close to reality—the U.N. inspectors. Consider what Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the U.N. nuclear agency, told the Security Council on March 7, 2003, after his team had done 247 inspections at 147 sites: "no evidence of resumed nuclear activities ... nor any indication of nuclear-related prohibited activities at any related sites." He went on to say that evidence suggested Iraq had not imported uranium since 1990 and no longer had a centrifuge program. He concluded that Iraq's nuclear capabilities had been effectively dismantled by 1997 and its dual-use industrial plants had decayed. All these claims appear to be dead-on, based on Kay's findings.

Regarding chemical and biological weapons, the U.N. inspectors headed by Hans Blix conducted 731 inspections between November 2002 and March 2003. Despite claims by the U.S. government of the existence of specific stockpiles of weapons and active weapons programs, they found no evidence of either. In his reports to the Security Council, Blix was always judicious. "One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist," he said. "However, that possibility is also not excluded."

Blix wanted more evidence, arguing that the Iraqis were not providing trustworthy accounts of the destruction of their previously existing chemical and biological stockpiles. He asked that the Iraqis do more to convince him. Regarding missiles, despite administration claims that Iraq was churning out Scuds, the inspectors found none. They did, however, find some prohibited medium-range missiles, and were in the process of destroying them when the war began.

Why were the inspectors right and the administration wrong? Partly this has to do with political pressure. The CIA had been battered for 30 years by accusations from the right that it was soft on the Soviets, soft on the Chinese and most recently soft on Saddam. (Never mind that in almost every case, the agency was more accurate in its assessments than its neoconservative accusers. It lost the political battle.) The U.N. inspectors could actually make their assessments without fear. (Some in the administration did try to scare them. "We will not hesitate to discredit you," Vice President Cheney said to Blix before he began his job.)

More important, the inspectors were actually there on the ground and the American government was not. Some reports suggest that the United States did not have a single credible informant in Iraq before the war. The inspectors, on the other hand, were talking to scientists, engineers and bureaucrats for months. Yes, the officials were often trying to deceive them. But the inspectors were also picking up information along the way. We now all agree that the key missing ingredient in Iraq was human intelligence. Well, the inspectors were human intelligence. They were far more accurate, as it turned out, than billions of dollars of satellite and audio technologies. "What inspectors can often most valuably assess is not just the capabilities of the regime but its character and intentions," explains George Perkovitch, a leading nonproliferation expert at the Carnegie Endowment. BTW, the CIA had a credible informant in Iraq who told bush and Tenet that there were no WMDs long before the war. That truth was not acceptable to bush and so the facts and the intelligence were fixed to sell this stupid war in Iraq just as the same idiots are trying to sell a war against Iran using the same tactics. Luckily most of us are smart enough to have learn that you can not trust the bushies. It is so very sad that there are some who are just too plain stupid to learn from the past and will insist on believing the lies of the bushies.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Well, I love how you pick and choose snippets of certain stories with narrow paramaters!Read the entire link if you wish. I post what is relevant. Again, you may not like the fact that the so called wmds that you are so proud of are just as dangerous as what is under the average kitchen sink but the FACTS are the FACTS. You should join the real world and learn to see the facts instead of relying on fixed facts and intelligence that is the norm in your so-called reality.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Dennis Kucinich makes a good point that bush needs to stop the stupid Iran bashing. http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/28224WASHINGTON, D.C. (October 30, 2007) — This past weekend, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said he hasn’t seen any concrete evidence that there is a clandestine, secret nuclear weapons program under way in Iran.

“The head of the International Atomic Energy Agency is disputing the Administration’s rush to judgment on Iran. He is reiterating that the Administration must listen and negotiate,” Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) said.

In an interview with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer on “Late Edition,” IAEA Director Mohamed ElBaradei, strongly advised the Bush Administration to tone down its rhetoric on Iran. He stated: “So we are not talking about Iran having today a nuclear weapon. We are trying to make sure that the future intention of Iran is peaceful, and that’s really what we are talking about. Risk assessment of possible future intention by Iran, if they have the technology to develop nuclear weapon. I say that because at this stage we need to continue to work through creative diplomacy. We have the time. Because I don’t see any other solution, Wolf, except through diplomacy and inspection.”

The Bush Administration has been busy this month ratcheting up the rhetoric to take us to war with Iran. President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Secretary of State Rice have all been making statements to convince the American public that a war with Iran is inevitable.

“The IAEA chief’s persistence and resolve to bring Iran into compliance is admirable. There is no military solution that brings a safer world. We need to change the collision course that we are on with Iran and enter into high-level diplomatic negotiations,” Kucinich said.

“Congress must exercise the power granted to it under the Constitution and rein in the President’s power. This county and this world cannot afford another war based on lies.”One war based on stupid lies is enough.

[Trueblue]

Do you think that Iran would actually let the IAEA know if it was devolping nukes?

The IAEA is pretty good at figuring it out for themselves.

Well, I love how you pick and choose snippets of certain stories with narrow paramaters!

What you showed here were little itty bitty pieces of a Giant Picture! The stuff that didn't turn out to be a whole lot.
What about the WMDs that were NOT found??????





:lol

[Wabash]

Laugh all you want....Iraq is a good size piece of real estate...and if they can hide a plane and thousands of weapons and ammo...they can hide anything...

I think you libs give the IAEA waaaaay too much credit. Hell, you give the UN too much credit and they are irrelevant!

With all the lies drummed up by the Left, against Bush, Cheney, DeLay, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Reagan, Bush I, the shock Jock et al.....your own credibility is suspect!

Once again...when are they going to proceed with some kind of legal action against DeLay?

[Yellowdogtexan]

I think you libs give the IAEA waaaaay too much credit. Hell, you give the UN too much credit and they are irrelevant!
The IAEA won the Nobel Peace Prize for doing great work in the stop of nuclear weapons. The silly and ignorant conservatives just can stand the fact that the IAEA was right and if the US had listened to the IAEA a stupid and wasteful war in Iraq would have been prevented.

[issac the dragon]

I don't think that is true. Bush would have found another excuse for the war. Just as he intends to go to war against Iran. He is just fishing around for the right excuse.

[Wabash]

The IAEA won the Nobel Peace Prize for doing great work in the stop of nuclear weapons. The silly and ignorant conservatives just can stand the fact that the IAEA was right and if the US had listened to the IAEA a stupid and wasteful war in Iraq would have been prevented.

You know what I think about the NPP! After they gave it to a murderous butcher like Arafat, Jimmy the Joke Carter and a the murderous Mandela, THEY are irrelevant...so them giving the award to the IAEA has NO credibility with me or a lot of others!
I don't think that is true. Bush would have found another excuse for the war. Just as he intends to go to war against Iran. He is just fishing around for the right excuse.

He really doesn't need an excuse...the handwriting is on the wall and Iran is and has been a threat to us and Israel for decades!

Get your heads out of the sand liberals!!!

Oh wait, you guys probably invite pedophiles into your neighborhood as soon as they get out of the slammer, so they can meet the falmilies....RIGHT?

[Yellowdogtexan]

I am glad the Senator Byrd is calling bush on this bullshit about Iran. http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/31/byrd-blasts-bushs-rhetorical-ghosts-and-goblins-on-iran/On the Senate floor today, Sen. Robert Byrd (D-WV) denounced the White House’s saber-rattling on Iran, calling the Bush administration’s warnings of a nuclear threat “rhetorical ghosts and goblins to scare the American people”:Today is a fitting day to discuss the issue of Iran. Today is All-Hallow’s Eve — Halloween — a day when people don masks and costumes to frighten others. The White House has been busy unleashing its rhetorical ghosts and goblins to scare the American people, with claims of an imminent nuclear threat in Iran, as they did with Iraq.The bushies are relying on fear because the facts do no support their claims about Iran any more than the real facts supported the invasion of Iraq. bush used fixed facts and intelligence to get us into one stupid and wasteful war and the same tricks will not work again.

[The Q]

:werd

ADQ

[Yellowdogtexan]

Senator Hagel is going to be missed. Here is an excerpt from a letter that Senator Hagel sent to bush urging bush to cut the crap about Iran and to do the right thing and negotiate with Iran. http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/002471.phpI am increasingly concerned, however, that this diplomatic strategy is stalling. There are growing differences with our international partners. Concerns remain that the United States' actual objectives is regime change in Iran, not a change in Iran's behavior. Prospects for further action in the UN Security Council have grown dim, and we appear increasingly reliant on a single-track effort to expand financial pressure on Iran outside of the UN Security Council. Iran's actions, both on its nuclear program and in Iraq, are unchanged. Iran's leaders appear increasingly confident in their positions vis-a-vis the United States.

Unless there is a strategic shift, I believe we will find ourselves in a dangerous and increasingly isolated position in the coming months. I do not see how the collective actions that we are now taking will produce the results that we seek. If this continues, our ability to sustain a united international front will weaken as countries grow uncertain over our motives and unwilling to risk open confrontation with Iran, and we are left with fewer and fewer policy options.Senator Hagel is correct in that the current policies have not worked and we have lost the support of our allies. Everyone in the world knows that bush lied about the reasons for the war in Iraq and therefore these allies are not going to buy the same lies about Iran.

[Trueblue]

The last refuge of those in denial-"the WMDs are there, they are just buried in the sand". :no

Ignore the spy satellites that don't show any such burial, forget the fact that there don't seem to be any materials available to make the weapons. :no

[Yellowdogtexan]

The last refuge of those in denial-"the WMDs are there, they are just buried in the sand". :no

Ignore the spy satellites that don't show any such burial, forget the fact that there don't seem to be any materials available to make the weapons. :noDon't forget that the Iraqi Study Group asked all of the soliders and military types who would have been responsible for moving or hiding these missing wmds and concluded that there were none. Someone would have had to actully moved and buried these WMDs and such person would have sold such information to the US and the ISG a long time ago. These weapons would not have buried themselves.

This claim is just too silly for words.

[Yellowdogtexan]

This is interesting. Even most of the intelligent members of the bush administration do not believe that Iran is really working on a nuclear weapon. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/21067.html Despite President Bush's claims that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons that could trigger "World War III," experts in and out of government say there's no conclusive evidence that Tehran has an active nuclear-weapons program.

Even his own administration appears divided about the immediacy of the threat. While Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney speak of an Iranian weapons program as a fact, Bush's point man on Iran, Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns, has attempted to ratchet down the rhetoric.

"Iran is seeking a nuclear capability ... that some people fear might lead to a nuclear-weapons capability," Burns said in an interview Oct. 25 on PBS.

"I don't think that anyone right today thinks they're working on a bomb," said another U.S. official, who requested anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity. Outside experts say the operative words are "right today." They say Iran may have been actively seeking to create a nuclear-weapons capacity in the past and still could break out of its current uranium-enrichment program and start a weapons program. They too lack definitive proof, but cite a great deal of circumstantial evidence. Bush's rhetoric seems hyperbolic compared with the measured statements by his senior aides and outside experts. ....

If conclusive proof exists, however, Bush hasn't revealed it. Nor have four years of IAEA inspections.

"I have not received any information that there is a concrete active nuclear-weapons program going on right now," IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei asserted in an interview Oct. 31 with CNN.

"There is no smoking-gun proof of work on a nuclear weapon, but there is enough evidence that points in that direction," said Mark Fitzpatrick of the London-based International Institute of Strategic Studies, a former deputy assistant secretary of state for nonproliferation controls.

New light may be shed when the IAEA reports this month on whether Iran is fulfilling an August accord to answer all outstanding questions about the nuclear-enrichment program it long concealed from the U.N. watchdog agency.

Its report is expected to focus on Iran's work with devices that spin uranium hexafluoride gas to produce low-enriched uranium for power plants or highly enriched uranium for weapons, depending on the duration of the process.
Again, there is no real proof that Iran is currently working on a nuclear bomb other than the lies and claims of bush and cheney. These are the same lies that they used to justify the war in Iraq and so it is hard to take them seriously.

[AYFR]

TAgain, there is no real proof that Iraq is currently working on a nuclear bomb other than the lies and claims of bush and cheney. These are the same lies that they used to justify the war in Iraq and so it is hard to take them seriously.

:snicker

[Yellowdogtexan]

Obviously I was referring to Iran. Again, there is no evidence that Iran is working on a bomb. bush is hoping to use the same lies that worked for Iraq against Iran.

[Yellowdogtexan]

The US intelligence agencies basically agreed with the IAEA in the NIE that was released today. http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/03/nie-iran/A new National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) released today concludes with “high confidence” that “in fall 2003, Tehran halted its nuclear weapons program.” From the report’s findings:We assess with moderate confidence Tehran had not restarted its nuclear weapons program as of mid-2007, but we do not know whether it currently intends to develop nuclear weapons.

We continue to assess with moderate-to-high confidence that Iran does not currently have a nuclear weapon.

Tehran’s decision to halt its nuclear weapons program suggests it is less determined to develop nuclear weapons than we have been judging since 2005.The intelligence community’s 2005 assessment concluded, inaccurately, that “Iran currently is determined to develop nuclear weapons” and “could produce enough fissile material for a weapon by the end of this decade.” But as the new NIE finds, Iran is unlikely to achieve this capability until after 2015 “because of foreseeable technical and programmatic problems.”

This new NIE is long overdue. It was reportedly completed a year ago, but blocked by the White House. IPS reported:A National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iran has been held up for more than a year in an effort to force the intelligence community to remove dissenting judgments on the Iranian nuclear programme, and thus make the document more supportive of U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney’s militarily aggressive policy toward Iran.As ThinkProgress has documented, the White House’s manipulation of the Iran NIE bore a striking resemblance to the controversies that played out over pre-war Iraq intelligence.

But even with Cheney’s meddling, this NIE makes it clear that there is no imminent danger from Iran’s nuclear program. Newsweek’s Howard Fineman recently reported that the intelligence community is trying to send a message to “slow down what the president, most particularly the vice president” in what they “want to do in Iran.”

[toxic]

The US intelligence agencies basically agreed with the IAEA in the NIE that was released today. http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/03/nie-iran/

YDT, this really busts Bush's nuts. Great find :)

The NIE document is linked at the ThinkProgress site, for those that want to read the actual document (very reader friendly):
http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf

[Trueblue]

All 16 US spy agencies collaborated on this report, which should give us great confidence that we should proceed with tactics other than making war on Iran.

Thank God. :theman

[Yellowdogtexan]

The bushies have known about this report for some time and still pushed for war against Iran. It was after this report was written that bush made his World War III comments.

[Wabash]

All 16 US spy agencies collaborated on this report, which should give us great confidence that we should proceed with tactics other than making war on Iran.

Thank God. :theman

WRONG conclusion!

The bushies have known about this report for some time and still pushed for war against Iran. It was after this report was written that bush made his World War III comments.

Yep...Bush and Co. was right! Even Hillary said so a few months ago!

In Feb. Hillary said NO Option should be taken off the table when dealing with Iran!

[Wabash]

Almost everyday, I have to come in here and defend America from the Drive By Media and the whacko Libs on this forum who believe all this media malarky!

IRAN IS STILL a THREAT!!!

They are STILL enriching Uranium!
Immediate pressure is off for now, but they are Still an axis of Evil. Nothing has changed except the Time Table!

How about some Kudos for Bush presenting more accurate and up to date intelligence. Not bad for an intelligence community that has been gutted by liberals dating back to the Nixon Adm.!
Back in the 70s, the Church Group did their best to gut the CIA!

[Wabash]

Imanutjob has been perfectly clear about his murderous intentions. The threat has lessened, but not gone away by any means!

Israel just bombed a "secret" Syrian nuke plant, that had fissionable material from NK!

Here's another thought for the dweebs here that believe all the bullshit the Media is espousing! Maybe this is a ploy to throw Iran off guard?
It's obvious that the media has bought into it, and so has TB and dog and probably others!
One more thing you need to realize...the media is not really concerned about Iran, hell they never were. The emphasis is on how they can discredit Bush with this new info....the fact is, they can't. They shoud be praising Bush, but their intent is to crush him at every point and all you Libs that say you don't want the media to lead you around by the nose(in another thread)....are being led around by the nose!!!!!

[Wabash]

President Bush said it very well this morning...

"Iran was a threat, Iran is a threat, Iran will be a threat in the future!

[Wabash]

The threat of Iran obtaining nuclear weapons must not be underestimated, was the message government officials sent out on Tuesday after the release of a US intelligence report claiming that Teheran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003 but was continuing to enrich uranium.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak said that he was familiar with the report that had been shown to him by US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates during the Annapolis peace summit last week.

"I am familiar with the American intelligence assessment," Barak said following a meeting with Hungarian Chief of Staff Gen. Andras Havril. "Nevertheless, I say again that Iran is today a central threat on the world and the State of Israel."

He said that the world and Israel needed to take steps to confront the threat and to thwart it.

"There is a lot that can be done with regard to the Iranian nuclear program but it is important to mention that words do not stop missiles," the defense minister said. "Action is needed in the form of sanctions, in the diplomatic sphere and in other spheres as well."

Last month, Barak said that a military operation was a viable option for dealing with the Iranian nuclear threat.

"We cannot take any option off the table and we need to study operational aspects," Barak said at a Labor Party meeting in Beersheba. "This is not just for the coming months but also for the coming two years."

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said at the opening of a meeting with the Italian deputy prime minister that the report only emphasizes and strengthens the need for the international community to tighten sanctions on Iran so that it will not be able to produce nuclear weapons.

According to Olmert, the report's findings were brought up during his meetings with Washington officials soon after the Middle East Peace conference in Annapolis, Maryland last week.

Regardless of the fact that the report said that Iran had halted its nuclear weapons plan, the fact was that such a plan did indeed exist until 2003.

"The US still plans to continue to try to prevent Iran from producing nuclear weapons. We will make every effort - first and foremost with our friends in the US - to prevent the production of this type of weapon," he said.

In response to Israeli speculation that the report's findings would weaken American-backed support for military action against Iran, Barak emphasized that the issue of its nuclear program was still relevant.

"It is possible that this is correct, but I do not think that it is our place to make assessments about US [policy]. It is our responsibility to ensure that the correct things are done. Constantly speaking about the Iranian threat, as we have done recently, is not the right thing to do… words do not stop missiles," Barak told Army Radio.

"There are differences in the assessments of different organizations in the world about this, and only time will tell who is right," he added.

National Infrastructures Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said that irrespective of the US intelligence report, "Israel must continue to act in every way against the Iranian nuclear threat."

"This report is totally fine, it makes me smile, but on the other hand Israel and the defense establishment are working under the premise that Iran is in fact heading directly towards [a nuclear weapon]" Ben Eliezer told Army Radio, adding, "This is exactly one of the issues over which the state of Israel must take no risk."

Similarly, government officials said Monday night that the new report had not lessened Israeli concerns, since enriched uranium can be used both for civilian and military purposes.

According to the report, Iran halted its nuclear weapons development program in the fall of 2003 under international pressure but is continuing to enrich uranium. That means it may still be able to develop a weapon between 2010 and 2015, senior US intelligence officials said Monday.

Herb Keinon and AP contributed to this report.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1195546799748&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Wow, Barak said the same thing as Hillary Clinton said a few months ago!....

We need to let the media know ...don't we? Oh. they know, they just ignore this fact!

[Yellowdogtexan]

President Bush said it very well this morning...

"Iran was a threat, Iran is a threat, Iran will be a threat in the future!You really like being lied to you. Only an idiot would believe bush given his lies.

[Wabash]

You really like being lied to you. Only an idiot would believe bush given his lies.

You couldn't be more WRONG!!!!

Bush doesn't make intelligence...he is GIVEN intelligence!

IRAN IS A CONTINUING THREAT! Those centerfuges aren't there for peaceful purposes! You like lying to yourself!
Bush is only PART of the equation! Get Real!

[Yellowdogtexan]

The fact remains that the IAEA just as in Iraq was right. The IAEA told the US and the world that Iraq did not have a nuclear program and bush used fixed facts and fixed intelligence to justify its invasion anyway.

Again, the key fact as opposed to the pure crap posted by wabby is that the IAEA's initial report were correct and the bushies have been telling lies to justify its policy with respect to Iran. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/03/AR2007120302210_2.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2007102501235The International Atomic Energy Agency, which was briefed on the U.S. intelligence report two hours before its release, saw the judgments as validation of its own long-standing conclusion that there is "no evidence" of an undeclared nuclear program in Iran. "It also validates the assessments of [IAEA Director General] Mohamed ElBaradei, who continuously said in his public statements that he saw no clear and public danger, and that therefore there was plenty of time for negotiations," said a senior IAEA official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Idiots may listen to bush lies but the rest of the world knows not to believe anything from bush or cheney. Here bush and cheney could not even get our own intelligence services to back up their lies.

[Yellowdogtexan]

You couldn't be more WRONG!!!!

Bush doesn't make intelligence...he is GIVEN intelligence!
This NIE has been out since july and despite its clear holdings, bush lied about Iran and claimed that we would have World War III unless Iran's non-existent nuclear program was stopped. bush used fixed facts and intelligence to sell the stupid war in Iraq. The rest of the world has learned that bush is a liar. Only an idiot would believe anything that bush said about Iran.

[Wabash]

The fact remains that the IAEA just as in Iraq was right. The IAEA told the US and the world that Iraq did not have a nuclear program and bush used fixed facts and fixed intelligence to justify its invasion anyway.

Again, the key fact as opposed to the pure crap posted by wabby is that the IAEA's initial report were correct and the bushies have been telling lies to justify its policy with respect to Iran. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/03/AR2007120302210_2.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2007102501235Idiots may listen to bush lies but the rest of the world knows not to believe anything from bush or cheney. Here bush and cheney could not even get our own intelligence services to back up their lies.


This NIE has been out since july and despite its clear holdings, bush lied about Iran and claimed that we would have World War III unless Iran's non-existent nuclear program was stopped. bush used fixed facts and intelligence to sell the stupid war in Iraq. The rest of the world has learned that bush is a liar. Only an idiot would believe anything that bush said about Iran.

I will still go along with Israel's assessment...even HILLARY said that IRAN was a THREAT back in Feb. of this year! She voted FOR the War, before she voted against it...same on Iran!
Remember, she is now a Flip Flopper on several issues!:wink
IRAN is STILL a THREAT...bottom Line!

So is dog being led around by the media nose too?

[Wabash]

To think we can All relax is totally flawed dog...totally!

[Wabash]

Our Strength is our Vigilence!

[Cookie Parker]

To think we can All relax is totally flawed dog...totally!

No, I think it's not only sound, but I"m democrat, I think it's definitely cost effective to NOT follow Bush and his lies into another nation. I mean, we don't have any more allies left to go with us, and our men are not staying in long enough to keep up the fighting in IRaq....

You have to consider how much monetary fraud exists in Iraq between the government and our contractors to realize this is a huge failure. The government is no close to a democracy and Turkey is invading. There are no successes here.. There are just a handful of wealthy people, Wabash....it's not hard to see.....and the only reason for shaking a sabre at Iran is to increase the wealth for a few on the backs of the American people.

[Wabash]

No, I think it's not only sound, but I"m democrat, I think it's definitely cost effective to NOT follow Bush and his lies into another nation. I mean, we don't have any more allies left to go with us, and our men are not staying in long enough to keep up the fighting in IRaq....

You have to consider how much monetary fraud exists in Iraq between the government and our contractors to realize this is a huge failure. The government is no close to a democracy and Turkey is invading. There are no successes here.. There are just a handful of wealthy people, Wabash....it's not hard to see.....and the only reason for shaking a sabre at Iran is to increase the wealth for a few on the backs of the American people.

Not shaking a sabre, just needed vigilance.....read my signature..

[Yellowdogtexan]

To think we can All relax is totally flawed dog...totally!What is the color of the sky in your alternative reality.

Again only an idiot would beleive bush on anything. The UN and the IAEA was correct as to Iraq first and now have been proven correct as to Iran. bush lied about Iraq and has been telling lies about Iran. Only idiot would believe anything that bush tells anyone.

[Wabash]

Iran and Canada are now kicking out each other's Ambassadors...

Just remember cookie...Iran is NOT our friend!

[Cookie Parker]

Not shaking a sabre, just needed vigilance.....read my signature..


I disagree....there has been no reason sustained by investigation to get upset with Iran..even the IEDs were made by us....

Bush is pushing an agenda, IMHO Wabash, to make a few people rich. Iran is no more capable of hurting us than they are of Israel..neither was Iraq. Israel has the nuclear bomb...Iran has a missile...

[Wabash]

I disagree....there has been no reason sustained by investigation to get upset with Iran..even the IEDs were made by us....
ok, I can understand your position...we can agree to disagree..

Bush is pushing an agenda, IMHO Wabash, to make a few people rich. Iran is no more capable of hurting us than they are of Israel..neither was Iraq. Israel has the nuclear bomb...Iran has a missile...

Iran may not be able to hurt us right now, but IMHO, continual vigilance is needed. I don't think Bush is out to make people rich, but I could be wrong. Taking Bush out of the equation completely, changes nothing as to the threat that Iran poses.
Israel has the nukes...that's a Hell of a lot better than Iran, Iraq, Syria or Afganistan having them!:wink

[Trueblue]

Of course continued vigilance is needed! Who said otherwise? Nobody.

These sorry bastards-Bush and Cheney-were trying to scare and lie us into another war-and THANK GOD they were caught in time.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Senator Kennedy has really taken the bushies to task for the lies told by the bushies about Iran. http://www.berkshireeagle.com/ci_7632754President Bush should look at the "hard facts" surrounding Iran's nuclear program and stop issuing military threats against the Islamic nation, Sen. Edward Kennedy said today.

"The last thing America needs is to be misled into another war based on hype and trumped up intelligence," Kennedy said.

His comments followed Bush's remarks today saying Iran continues to pose a threat to global security, despite the findings of a U.S. National Intelligence Estimate released Monday concluding the country halted its nuclear program four years ago.

The report undercuts the administration's claims that Iran has been trying to arm itself with nuclear weapons.

This fall, Bush said Iran's nuclear aspirations could result in World War III. The administration is also working with other countries to gain support for international sanctions against Iran.....

Kennedy says the U.S. needs "to ratchet up our diplomacy and continue working with the international community," but he said Bush should stop issuing intimidating military threats.

"Obviously, we have to address continuing challenges from Iran," Kennedy said. "But it's time for the president to look at the cold hard facts on Iran and walk back from the over-heated rhetoric."The bushies tried their same old tricks of using lies and it failed this time. As Senator Kennedy noted The last thing America needs is to be misled into another war based on hype and trumped up intelligence

[Saguaro]

Heck not even Bush trusts his intel it seems,or does he trust it only when it backs him up ?

[Yellowdogtexan]

Heck not even Bush trusts his intel it seems,or does he trust it only when it backs him up ?cheney is evidently very upset by the NIE but is still trying to find someone who will listen to his demands that the US bomb Iran. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7126117.stmHowever, the new NIE will make it harder for proponents of military action against Iran to argue their case.

One source, who has close links to US intelligence, said that members of Vice President Dick Cheney's staff continued to call for military strikes against Iran "on a daily basis".

Senior military officers and intelligence officials are understood to have grave reservations about an attack on Iran - not least because it would be unclear how a military confrontation with Iran could be brought to a conclusion. Luckily now that the truth is out, no one will listen to cheney and his neo-cons

[Yellowdogtexan]

Here is a great statement from John Edwards about bush's latest attempt to fix the facts and intelligence to sell yet another stupid war. http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=12&year=2007&base_name=clinton_edwards_on_iran“The new National Intelligence Estimate shows that George Bush and Dick Cheney's rush to war with Iran is, in fact, a rush to war. The new NIE finds that Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003 and that Iran can be dissuaded from pursuing a nuclear weapon through diplomacy. This is exactly the reason that we must avoid radical steps like the Kyl-Lieberman bill declaring Iran's Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization, which needlessly took us closer to war. And it’s why I have proposed that we pursue a comprehensive diplomatic approach instead.”
Bush was going to his old playbook and was tyring to lie the US into yet another war. Luckily the intelligence agencies did not play along this time.

[Trueblue]

Have I told you lately that Bush and Cheney are sorry lying bastards?

[Saguaro]

They are delusional

[Wabash]

I don't think they are delusional at all!...I think you and your liberal buddies here are the ones that are delusional!

If you stupid people think that this is too good to be true, you are probably correct. Something is rotten in Iran...and any threat from that country is FAR from over!!!!!

The NIE report is flawed...see my other thread on this!

[Saguaro]

Some people just refuse to see the truth. Bush knew of this intel in August,yet he continues his rhetoic ! What else can he be but delusional

[Yellowdogtexan]

I don't think they are delusional at all!...Again, what is the color of the sky in your alternative reality. Maybe you and cheney can compare notes and come up with a name for this color for the dream world you too share.

[Yellowdogtexan]

I find it to be very funny that the right wing nut cases are all upset about the new NIE. This latest NIE is much stronger than the piece of fixed intelligence used to sell the Iraq war because there is common agreement by all of the agencies on the conclusions about Iran. http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/12/04/neocons-go-ballistic-on-iran-nie/ This is the kind of earthshaking intel that analysts rarely get to see. What is remarkable about the NIE is the consensus in the intelligence community about the validity of this info. Compare this to the execrable 2002 NIE on Iraq. There was no consensus in the intelligence community about Iraq’s efforts to acquire nukes. The”true believers” held the day and their position was prominently featured in the final draft. Dissenters–State’s Intelligence and Research Bureau and the Department of Energy–were relegated to footnotes and comments separated from the claim.

When you do an NIE it is incumbent on the writers to clearly state whether there is consensus or dissent. And if there is disagreement then that should be reflected in the text. In the case of the October 2002 abortion, the NIC editors should have noted that there was disagreement in the intelligence community about Iraq’s efforts to rebuild its nuclear program. They should have written something like, “analysts at the CIA and DIA believe Saddam is trying but analysts at INR and DOE believe the evidence points to non-nuclear activity”. Instead, the NIC editors let stand the misleading notion that Iraq was rebuilding a nuclear weapons program even though all agreed that Iraq was not trying to acquire yellowcake uranium from Niger. The senior NIC officials failed to do their duty in 2002.

Not the case today. The NIC stepped up and refused to budge despite repeated efforts by Dick Cheney and his minions to gut the effort. This happened thanks to the convergence of several factors. First, most of the Bush neocon ideologues are gone–Wolfowitz, Feith, Bolton, Wurmser, Libby, etc. Second, the Democrats control the House and Senate Intelligence committee and were receiving reports from analysts about the bullying by Cheney and others who were trying to sandbag the conclusions. Third, senior intelligence officers learned the lesson of 2002 and returned to the tradition of telling the President the truth, no matter how unpopular or unpalatable. And finally, this Administration’s days are numbered and the analysts can read the tea leaves. They know there is no percentage in pandering to power by serving up half-truths and wishful thinking.This is not just one agency but is the consensus of all of the US intelligence agencies. It is nice to see the intelligence agencies doing their job of telling the truth.

[Wabash]

Some people just refuse to see the truth. Bush knew of this intel in August,yet he continues his rhetoic ! What else can he be but delusional

Again...one more time.......you and ydt put waaaaay to much credibility in the NIE! And in the IAEA. They have ENABLED Iran to continue it's uranium enrichment program.
The Left demomized John Bolton, when in fact he was the better watchdog over abuses by Iran.

The President is NOT backing down on this and several journalists have now commented on the "suspect" finding by NIE!
btw ydt....the NIE nor the IAEA are NOT your God! The Lord Jesus Christ is your God. So stop paying so much homage to these suspect corporal bodies!

[Saguaro]

:bs

[Yellowdogtexan]

John Bolton is a fool and an idiot. There is a reason why he is no longer ambassador to the UN. Even when the repugs controlled the Senate, he was unable to be confirmed because he is a hack and idiot. The fact that you are putting any credibility on bolton is truly very very sad.

[Yellowdogtexan]

The President is NOT backing down on this ...Like you reality does not matter to bush. bush is also claiming that he would still invade Iraq even though he knows that there were no WMDs in Iraq and that Saddam was not involved in Sept. 11. All this tells the world is that bush is truly an idiot who does not care about facts or truth.

wabby, you may like being lied to but those of us who live in the real world believe in something called the truth and facts.

BTW, wabby you do know that like you bush has no credibility http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/22562.htmlThe report, though, has dealt another blow to Bush's credibility — which already was low over his false claims about illicit weapons in Iraq — because he was aware of the findings when he warned on Oct. 17 that Iran's quest for nuclear weapons could ignite World War III. Who is going to believe a liar like bush.

[Saguaro]

Fool me once shame on you ..Fool me twice shame on me .We refuse to be fooled by Bush yet again

[Wabash]

Like you reality does not matter to bush. bush is also claiming that he would still invade Iraq even though he knows that there were no WMDs in Iraq and that Saddam was not involved in Sept. 11. All this tells the world is that bush is truly an idiot who does not care about facts or truth.

wabby, you may like being lied to but those of us who live in the real world believe in something called the truth and facts.

BTW, wabby you do know that like you bush has no credibility http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/22562.html Who is going to believe a liar like bush.

Bush aside....other people suspect a rat in this and still think Iran will be continuing it's program....the NIE report smells and is very suspect! Put together via ONE unverified source and by volunteers!

Fool me once shame on you ..Fool me twice shame on me .We refuse to be fooled by Bush yet again
See above..forget Bush, look at the lack of evidence!
Again Sag...faulty intell on Iraq= Bush no good!
Supposed good intell on Iran= Bush no good!
What's wrong with this picture?

[Wabash]

After ALL the shit stirred up by the Left on the poor intell in Iraq....you guys are ready to buy this suspect intell on Iran Hook, Line and Stinker!


What is wrong with this picture?????

[Yellowdogtexan]

wabby is so used to fixed intelligence and facts that he can not accept the truth and the facts.

Again, the IAEA was right about Iraq. The conclusion of the IAEA on Iraq's nuclear program has been verified by the Iraq Study Group and if the US had listened to the IAEA before the war in Iraq, many innocent lives would have been save.

Here the IAEA and the entire US intelligence community has come out with the truth. Wabby may not want to accept these facts but then again he does not live in the real world. wabby actually thinks that john bolton did a good job and was not an embarassment to the country.

bush lied about Iraq and tried the same lies for Iran. The main difference is that the US intelligence community is no longer willing to fix facts and intelligence for bush.

[Wabash]

I've said all thatI'm going to say on this subject!

Goodbye!

[Yellowdogtexan]

Put together via ONE unverified source and by volunteersActually, there are numerous sources for the NIE report and that is why all of the US intelligence agencies signed off on it. Sy Hersh has some good stuff on this that has been floating around for some time. http://rawstory.com/news/2007/CNN_Seymour_Hersh_vindicated_by_new_1205.htmlHowev er, the NIE was no surprise to veteran investigative reporter Seymour Hersh, who has been writing about it since November 2006. Hersh told CNN's Wolf Blitzer on Tuesday that he believes the White House deliberately kept the NIE bottled up for over a year because the vice president was dissatisfied with its conclusions.

"At the time I wrote that, there was a tremendous fight about it, because Cheney ... did not want to hear this," Hersh recalled. "I think the vice-president has kept his foot on the neck of that report. ... The intelligence we learned about yesterday has been circulating inside this government at the highest levels for the last year -- and probably longer."

As early as July 2006, Hersh had reported that the US military was resisting administration pressure for a bombing campaign in Iran, because "American and European intelligence agencies have not found specific evidence of clandestine activities or hidden facilities."

By November 2006, Hersh's sources had told him of "a highly classified draft assessment by the C.I.A.," which concluded that satellite monitoring and sophisticated radiation-detection devices planted near Iranian facilities had turned up absolutely no evidence of a nuclear weapons program. However, Bush and Cheney were expected to try to keep those conclusions out of the forthcoming NIE on Iran's nuclear capabilities.
This NIE is based on the numerous sources and the claim that is based on a single source is stupid.

[Wabash]

Actually, there are numerous sources for the NIE report and that is why all of the US intelligence agencies signed off on it. Sy Hersh has some good stuff on this that has been floating around for some time. http://rawstory.com/news/2007/CNN_Seymour_Hersh_vindicated_by_new_1205.htmlThis NIE is based on the numerous sources and the claim that is based on a single source is stupid.

As usual, your conclusions are flawed...I think you and many are as wrong as wrong can be. But hey, go ahead, believe old nutjob isn't making or going to make nukes in the future....be stupid like that!

You are no where near as smart as you think you are...we hold these truths to be self evident!

[Wabash]

I can't leave this alone...there are waaaay too many inconsistentcies here.....I most definitely Smell a Rat!

NIE: An Abrupt About-Face

As many recognize, the latest NIE on Iran’s nuclear weapons program directly contradicts what the U.S. Intelligence Community was saying just two years previously. And it appears that this about-face was very recent. How recent?

Consider that on July 11, 2007, roughly four or so months prior to the most recent NIE’s publication, Deputy Director of Analysis Thomas Fingar gave the following testimony before the House Armed Services Committee (emphasis added):

Iran and North Korea are the states of most concern to us. The United States’ concerns about Iran are shared by many nations, including many of Iran’s neighbors. Iran is continuing to pursue uranium enrichment and has shown more interest in protracting negotiations and working to delay and diminish the impact of UNSC sanctions than in reaching an acceptable diplomatic solution. We assess that Tehran is determined to develop nuclear weapons--despite its international obligations and international pressure. This is a grave concern to the other countries in the region whose security would be threatened should Iran acquire nuclear weapons.

This paragraph appeared under the subheading: "Iran Assessed As Determined to Develop Nuclear Weapons." And the entirety of Fingar’s 22-page testimony was labeled "Information as of July 11, 2007." No part of it is consistent with the latest NIE, in which our spooks tell us Iran suspended its covert nuclear weapons program in 2003 "primarily in response to international pressure" and they "do not know whether (Iran) currently intends to develop nuclear weapons."

The inconsistencies are more troubling when we realize that, according to the Wall Street Journal, Thomas Fingar is one of the three officials who were responsible for crafting the latest NIE. The Journal cites "an intelligence source" as describing Fingar and his two colleagues as "hyper-partisan anti-Bush officials." (The New York Sun drew attention to one of Fingar’s colleagues yesterday.)

So, if it is true that Dr. Fingar played a leading role in crafting this latest NIE, then we are left with serious questions:

* Why did your opinion change so drastically in just four months time?

* Is the new intelligence or analysis really that good? Is it good enough to overturn your previous assessments? Or, has it never really been good enough to make a definitive assessment at all?

* Did your political or ideological leanings, or your policy preferences, or those of your colleagues, influence your opinion in any way?

Many in the mainstream press have been willing to cite this latest NIE unquestioningly. Perhaps they should start asking some pointed questions. (Don’t hold your breath.)

[Wabash]

This NIE report is a Bush Bash from the getgo and nothing but a Bush Bash!

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2007/12/nie_an_abrupt_aboutface.asp

[Saguaro]

Wabash, mind giving us a link to this ?

[Wabash]

Wabash, mind giving us a link to this ?

I did, in the next post...

[Wabash]

btw.....

Did you all know that the idiots that put out this latest thing about Iran's not making nukes are the same ones that undermined the original Bush intelligence about Iraq, and that they are leftovers from the Clinton admin...???...!!!

W should have cleaned house of these assholes when he moved in......I'm smelling a RAT and the stench is getting stronger!!!!!

[Saguaro]

Goldfarb is an expert ?

[Wabash]

Goldfarb is an expert ?

Just one of many questioning the validity of this report...and more are weighing in all the time...I'm not an expert and I sure can smell the stench from here!

Looking more and more like anti Bush folks in the state dept. attempting a hatchet job on Bush and Cheney! I hope they shove it up Fingar's butt!

[Yellowdogtexan]

wabby can not accept the fact that bush is a liar or an idiot (or both). The real intelligence and the truth does not matter to him as evidences by the Iraq http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071217/truthdigBush is such a liar. Or is he just out to lunch on the most important issue that he faces? In October, he charged that Iran's nuclear weapons program was bringing the world to the precipice of World War III, even though the White House had been informed at least a month earlier that Iran had no such program and had stopped efforts to develop one back in 2003.

Is it conceivable that Bush was telling the truth at his press conference Tuesday when he stated that he learned of the National Intelligence Estimate report, which contained that inconvenient fact, only last week? Even if Bush read the NIE report, he clearly doesn't respect it, for at his press conference he said "the NIE doesn't do anything to change my opinion about the danger Iran poses to the world--quite the contrary." Not that he has anything against the NIE, whose directors he handpicked. "I want to compliment the intelligence community for their good work. Right after the failure of intelligence in Iraq, we reformed the intelligence community."

But whether or not the intelligence agencies are reformed, the President still ignores them. He didn't listen when they told him he was wrong in claiming that Iraq had purchased yellow cake uranium from Niger and he doesn't listen now when they tell him his alarms about Iran are without factual foundation. The difference this time around is that because Bush is a discredited lame duck the intelligence chiefs were a bit more forthcoming with their findings in a report that has, in part, been made available to the public. bush is ignoring any facts that gets in the way of his lies.

[Wabash]

wabby can not accept the fact that bush is a liar or an idiot (or both). The real intelligence and the truth does not matter to him as evidences by the Iraq http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071217/truthdigbush is ignoring any facts that gets in the way of his lies.

The real intelligence and truth are that Iran is a dangerous threat to the world and nutjob's rhetoric cannot be ignored!

You go ahead and maintain your side of the story dog...it's gonna come back to bite you...:wink
The odor is emanating from your pores!

[Saguaro]

:headshake Poor Wabash what will you do if a Dem is elected Presdent next year ?

[Wabash]

:headshake Poor Wabash what will you do if a Dem is elected Presdent next year ?

Stay on the offensive....it's my destiny!:pblade

[Yellowdogtexan]

Again wabby can not deal with the real world. The IAEA was right in Iraq and were proved right in Iran. http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20071217&s=truthdigIn the case of Iraq's non-nukes, the intelligence evidence supporting Bush was flimsy at best when it did not directly contradict his key assertions. In the case of Iran, it is now publicly understood that there is no such evidence, flimsy or otherwise. But don't count on that to stop the bipartisan coalition of invasion hawks from pushing on.

Once again, they will attack the United Nations' experts, who have been proved right in Iran as they were in Iraq. A spokesman for the International Atomic Energy Agency pointed out that the NIE report supports the agency's view that there is "no evidence" of an undeclared nuclear weapons program in Iran and "validates the assessments of [IAEA Director General] Mohamed ElBaradei, who continuously said in his public statements that he saw no clear and public danger, and that therefore that there was plenty of time for negotiations." The IAEA was right in Iraq and have been proven right in Iran. These are facts that wabby does not want to deal with

[Wabash]

Again wabby can not deal with the real world. The IAEA was right in Iraq and were proved right in Iran. http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20071217&s=truthdigThe IAEA was right in Iraq and have been proven right in Iran. These are facts that wabby does not want to deal with

I'm dealing with these lack of facts just fine dog...you are wrong on this and so are many others...this report is a sham, just look at the evidence piling up against it! How do you acct. for the about face inside of 4 months?

You are gonna stink soooooo bad...just keep playing in the pig wallow...and hang yourself with your own words!

[Wabash]

PEE UUUUUUUU dog...Peeee UUU!

[Yellowdogtexan]

[B]You are gonna stink soooooo bad...just keep playing in the pig wallow...and hang yourself with your own words!wabby, it is you who is never ever right on issues. Your claims about volunteers writing this NIE was so stupid that they were funny. You are in denial.

Some day, I hope that you rejoin the real world. Your fantasy world must be a very sad and scary place given your fears and stupid claims.

[Wabash]

wabby, it is you who is never ever right on issues. Your claims about volunteers writing this NIE was so stupid that they were funny. You are in denial.

Some day, I hope that you rejoin the real world. Your fantasy world must be a very sad and scary place given your fears and stupid claims.

You are WRONG, Wrong, Wrong dog...you are in the fantasy world...read the report I posted about the volunteers! Fingar is a Clinton left over, anti Bush maggot and not as experienced...It's a Total Con!
A total reversal by the same guy in 4 months time...it's Bullshit and Nutjob is loving it!

[Trueblue]

Sixteen agencies collaborated on this report. The only reason you suspect it is because it doesn't say what you want it to say, as far as I can tell. :shrug2

[Wabash]

Sixteen agencies collaborated on this report. The only reason you suspect it is because it doesn't say what you want it to say, as far as I can tell. :shrug2

I'm only one voice crying in the wilderness TB...and there are certainly more learned people than I saying the same thing...it stinks..it's one unverified by the US, source. Dig deeper...a 180 degree turn around in 4 months by an anti Bush, Clinton leftover...it stinks...I can smell it from Oregon!

btw, you gonna answer my question from yesterday or keep stalling?

[Saguaro]

So Wabash, you are saying that you agreed with this intel dept. when Bush used the same intel dept.to go to war with Iraq,but not now ?

[Yellowdogtexan]

Here are some excerpts from an e-mail that I received today from DNC Chairman Howard Dean. Here we go again.

For the past few months, the Bush Administration exploited the fears of Americans to make their case against Iran. Just a few weeks ago, the President said "I believe they want to have the capacity, the knowledge, in order to make a nuclear weapon."

This week, 16 U.S. intelligence agencies published a report that "in fall 2003, Tehran halted its nuclear weapons program." Turns out the White House was aware of this shocking assessment for a few months, but reportedly worked to delay its public release.

Distortions and manipulation to promote a narrow ideological agenda is nothing new to the Bush Administration -- it's how they misled us into Iraq. This is the worst kind of leadership: a dishonest appeal our base emotions.

Iran may pose a threat, but misleading the American people is not the way to deal with it. All of the Democratic candidates have said that we need to have all options on the table when dealing with Iran -- Republicans seem to only consider war.....

If these quotes are any indication, the Republican frontrunners haven't gotten the message:

Rudy Giuliani: "Iran is nuclear threat, not just because they can deliver a nuclear warhead with missiles; they're a nuclear threat because they are the biggest state sponsor of terrorism and they can hand nuclear materials to terrorists."

Mitt Romney: "If for some reasons they continue down their course of folly toward nuclear ambition, then I would take military action if that's available to us."

Mike Huckabee: "A President has to do whatever is necessary to protect the American people. If we think Iran is building nuclear capacity that could be used against us in any way, including selling some of the nuclear capacity to some other terrorist group, then yes we have a right [to attack]. I would do it in a heartbeat. "

We don't need four more years of Bush-Cheney foreign policy in the White House. No matter your party, it's time to stop scaring Americans with doomsday scenarios -- and start talking about the positive steps our country can take to ensure a peaceful world community.

Stand up for policy based on facts, not hysteria fueled by fear

[Yellowdogtexan]

This is going to be fun to watch. The Democrats in Congress are going to hold hearings on this NIE and find out why it is so different from past claims from the bushies. These hearings will verify what changes have been made between the fraudulent NIE used to sell the Iraq war and this new NIE on Iran http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/dems-seeking-answers-about-report-on-iran-2007-12-05.html“It’s a very powerful NIE,” said Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), a member of the Intelligence Committee. “We all feel badly burnt by the Iraq NIE.” She added that her panel will look into the discrepancy between the Iran NIE and the administration’s recent rhetoric on the need for possible military action against Iran. It will also ask why the last Iran NIE, released in 2005, judged that Iran was much closer to developing nuclear weapons.

The NIE released Monday said that Iran would not be capable of building an atomic bomb until the next decade if it renewed its efforts. The assessment contradicts previous judgments of Iran’s intentions.

“It would be a good idea to try and learn more why there is such a difference between one report and the other,” said Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Neb.), a member of the Armed Services panel. “We are hoping that [the latest] estimate is right.” He warned that the United States should not let its guard down with regard to Iran and keep pushing for sanctions.

The intelligence community’s latest assessment on Iran’s nuclear intentions comes after a year of congressional prodding, including a study by the Senate Intelligence Committee of the intelligence community’s work regarding the collection and analysis of information on Iran.

That study concluded that the intelligence community has significantly improved the quality of its work since the 2002 Iraq estimate, according to a statement released by Senate Intelligence Chairman Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.).

“The key judgments show that the Intelligence Community has learned its lessons from the Iraq debacle,” Rockefeller said. “This demonstrates a new willingness to question assumptions internally, and a level of independence from political leadership that was lacking in the recent past.”

In the coming days, the intelligence committees will be meeting with intelligence officials to pour over the classified material of the report.

“I will be asking several questions. First, I will want to be fully informed about the classified sources upon which this estimate is based,” said Rep. Silvestre Reyes (D-Texas), chairman of the House Intelligence panel. He said he will also ask where certain agencies dissented, why Iran suspended its program and what can be done in the future to prevent Iran from restarting it.

“There is absolutely no question that there should be oversight on this issue,” said Rep. Jim McDermott (D-Wash.) who for years has been trying to push legislation that would ensure congressional authorization for any military action with Iran.

President Bush’s “credibility is absolutely zero,” McDermott said in an interview. “We are dealing with a president who has no shame. Anyone who can turn down 10 million children [for health insurance] is not going to be turned off by a report,” he added.
The democrats will get to ask when bush was told about this NIE and why bush was allowed to make such stupid claims as his World War III claim.

[Trueblue]

I'm only one voice crying in the wilderness TB...and there are certainly more learned people than I saying the same thing...it stinks..it's one unverified by the US, source. Dig deeper...a 180 degree turn around in 4 months by an anti Bush, Clinton leftover...it stinks...I can smell it from Oregon!

Wabash, I doubt that this is actually based on one unverified source. Be reasonable. They did crap like that before with Iraq, and got in trouble for it. Do you really believe that all SIXTEEN agencies would risk doing it again?

btw, you gonna answer my question from yesterday or keep stalling?

What Sag said was perfectly clear and correct. She did not say or imply that you endorsed Huckabee, she said that your response to actors who got involved in politics depended on whether they were Dems or Pubs.

[Kurtz]

Four former CIA officials who provided intelligence information to past presidents described as preposterous President Bush's claim that he was unaware until very recently that Iran had stopped its nuclear weapons program in 2003.

"It's unbelievable," said Melvin Goodman, who worked for the CIA from 1966 to 1990 and now is a senior fellow at the Center for International Policy.

Goodman's assessment of Bush's assertions were very similar to those of Larry C. Johnson, who worked at the CIA from 1985 to 1989 and from 1989 to 1993 served as Deputy Director in the U.S. State Department's Office of Counter Terrorism; Ray McGovern, a former CIA official who gave daily intelligence briefings to George H. W. Bush while he was vice president; and Bruce Riedel, who spent over two decades at both the CIA and National Security Council and is the former National Intelligence Officer for Near East and South Asian Affairs

At a December 4 (Tuesday) press conference, Bush asserted:

I was made aware of the NIE last week. In August, I think it was Mike McConnell [Director of National Intelligence] came in and said, 'we have some new information.' He didn't tell me what the information was; he did tell me it was going to take a while to analyze.
Why would you take time to analyze new information? One, you want to make sure it's not disinformation. You want to make sure the piece of intelligence you have is real. And secondly, they want to make sure they understand the intelligence they gathered: If they think it's real, then what does it mean? And it wasn't until last week that I was briefed on the NIE that is now public.


McGovern was totally incredulous: "The notion that the head of National Intelligence whispered in Bush's ear 'I've got a surprise for you and it's really important, but I'm not going to tell you about it until we check it out' -- The whole thing is preposterous," he said in an interview with The Huffington Post.

Riedel agreed, saying "the president either chose to ignore what he heard or his director of national intelligence is not doing his job." Riedel said he doubted McConnell failed to "do his part of the bargain."

"To me it is almost mind boggling that the President is told by the DNI that we have new important information on Iran and he doesn't ask 'what is that information?'" said Riedel, who is now a Senior Fellow at the Saban Center For Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution.

He said it wasn't the DNI's responsibility to tell the President to "stop hyperventilating about the Iranian threat."

"The President and his policy advisers - National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley in particular - have the responsibility of keeping their eye on the intelligence and to take into account new information as it comes along," Riedel told The Huffington Post.

Bush and Cheney have repeatedly warned of the dangers of Iran obtaining nuclear weapons, with no mention of the intelligence findings that Iran had stopped its program in 2003. On October 17, Bush was asked at a press conference, "But you definitively believe Iran wants to build a nuclear weapon?" He replied

I think so long -- until they suspend and/or make it clear that they -- that their statements aren't real, yeah, I believe they want to have the capacity, the knowledge, in order to make a nuclear weapon. And I know it's in the world's interest to prevent them from doing so. I believe that the Iranian -- if Iran had a nuclear weapon, it would be a dangerous threat to world peace. But this -- we got a leader in Iran who has announced that he wants to destroy Israel. So I've told people that if you're interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from have the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon. I take the threat of Iran with a nuclear weapon very seriously.
White House Press Secretary Tony Fratto declined Wednesday to discuss what McConnell told Bush at their August meeting.

Q ...Was there any indication from McConnell of the nature of the intelligence in the meeting in August?
MR. FRATTO: I can't give you more detail on what Director McConnell said to the President.


Larry Johnson pointed out that the National Intelligence Estimate is actually the result of an analysis of information from all intelligence agencies. The material on which the NIE report was based had been acquired well before the report itself was issued to the public.

When that information first became available to the CIA and other agencies, it would automatically have been included in the Daily Presidential Briefing (DPB) months before the NIE report, Johnson said. The President, Vice President, Defense Secretary and Secretary of State are all given daily accounts of the DPB, Johnson said. McGovern and Goodman agreed.


Former CIA Agents (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/05/former-cia-officials-bus_n_75518.html)

[Yellowdogtexan]

wabby's claim that the NIE was based on a single source is so stupid that it is funny. As is normal here, wabby is WRONG (but then again wabby is never ever right on anything).

The NIE is the collective judgement of all of the US intelligence agencies and was based on numerous different sources. http://www.newsweek.com/id/73904/page/2Officials familiar with the new intelligence that led to the new NIE's most critical conclusions—that Iran abandoned its nuclear bomb program four years ago and probably hasn't revived it—say the information comes from multiple sources that include both public information, like TV news pictures and reports from the International Atomic Energy Agency, and highly classified intelligence, including reporting from the National Security Agency, which eavesdrops on electronic communications, and the CIA's National Clandestine Service, which collects information from human spies, such as defectors and in-place informants. Both current and former officials said that even though the latest NIE says Iran actually suspended its secret bomb development program in 2003, the intelligence reporting on that development did not reach U.S. agencies until this year. The sources said that there is no indication at this stage that U.S. intelligence agencies, for one reason or another, might have overlooked or dismissed similar reporting about the suspension of the Iranian program that had come in earlier......

However, U.S. intelligence officials said that while an Iranian disinformation effort was possible, they believe that their conclusions were not influenced by Iranian disinformation. Indeed, officials said, the underlying intelligence information that went into the NIE was carefully vetted by "red teams" of analysts and counterintelligence officers for possible Iranian deceptions, but stood up to this intense vetting. "We did turn it over to our CI [counterintelligence] folks and said, 'What do you think? Could this be a strategic deception?'" one senior intelligence official said, adding, "I think the overall judgment is that is plausible but not likely, and the overall assessment of the community is contained in the words you see in the key judgments: high confidence, high confidence, high confidence."

[Wabash]

Skepticism Mounts Over NIE Findings

Thursday, December 6, 2007 10:24 PM

By: Kenneth R. Timmerman Article Font Size


“The intelligence community has proven over past five to seven years that they can’t get analysis right. They can’t build satellites. They can’t keep a secret," says Rep. Pete Hoekstra.

The ranking Republican member of the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Pete Hoekstra, is “profoundly disappointed” with the way the intelligence community has handled the latest National Intelligence Estimate on Iran, and says he is “not convinced” of their conclusion that Iran stopped its nuclear weapons program in late 2003.

“While the intelligence may have gotten better, it hasn’t improved to the point where we can make this kind of definitive statement, that Iran has stopped their weapons program,” he told Newsmax in an exclusive interview on Thursday.

“The intelligence community has proven over past five to seven years that they can’t get analysis right. They can’t build satellites. They can’t keep a secret. And now they expect us to say, great work? This is dead nuts!” he said.

This latest National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iran’s nuclear weapons program has become a political football, as Republicans and Democrats dispute its findings, the motivations for its release, and the policies it advocates.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says the report vindicates Democrats who have been skeptical of claims that Iran was seeking nuclear weapons, and has urged the administration to launch a “diplomatic surge” and cut a deal with Tehran.

Republicans are wondering how the intelligence community could reverse itself so thoroughly from its 2005 estimate, and suspect that “shadow warriors” opposed to the president are skewing the intelligence for political ends.

“This is CIA pay-back to the president for having made them, not FBI, take the rap for the failures that led up to 9/11,” one well-informed source told Newsmax.

The sparring over a highly-classified set of facts and conclusions is precisely the reason Vice Adm. Mike McConnell, the director of national intelligence, said last month he did not to intend to make the NIE findings public.

Speaking at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars on Nov. 14, McConnell said he did not want “a situation where the young analysts are writing something because they know it’s going to be a public debate or political debate.”

McConnell reversed course at the insistence of Democrats in Congress and published an unclassified summary of key findings on Monday, with predictable results.

The intermingling of intelligence with politics raises “profound issues” about the role of the intelligence community, said Michelle Van Cleave, who was the nation’s top counter-intelligence officer until last year.

“Should intelligence be contributing to the public debate? Or should it be confined to providing that secret information to national security decision makers that they cannot get anywhere else? If it is that later, we should not be encouraging them to go public with snapshot in time judgments,” she said.

Hoekstra said he received a call for McConnell’s to deputy, Donald Kerr, just hours before the Key Findings were released on Monday.

That last-minute call, and subsequent briefings by intelligence community representatives, were “disappointing,” said Hoekstra.

Citing the 2005 Iran estimate that concluded with “high confidence” that Iran continued to pursue nuclear weapons, Hoekstra said the president should order a “full-depth analysis” to get the intelligence community to “fully explain how they got it so wrong in 2005 and how they now believe they’ve got it so right in 2007.”

Hoekstra didn’t dispute the actual findings of the NIE, which concluded with “high confidence that in fall 2003, Tehran halted its nuclear weapons program.” His concern was the process that led the intelligence community to so dramatically reverse itself, and whether ongoing “gaps” in U.S. knowledge of Iran shouldn’t prompt analysts to greater prudence in their judgments.

“I get very nervous when they make these kind of definitive statements,” he said.

Representatives from the 16 member agencies of the intelligence community briefed the Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday, and the House committee on Wednesday.

Hoekstra said that the closed-door presentation was “pathetic.”

“We expect them to be forthright, so you don’t have to ask 50 questions to make sure you ask the right one,” he said. “Members didn’t find them forthcoming, or even well-versed in answering very tough questions that were put to them by Democrats and Republicans.”

Herbert E. Meyer, who helped draft National Intelligence Estimates during the Reagan administration, believes the controversy has become so intense – and so partisan – that the president should appoint a non-partisan commission of experts to sift through the evidence, to determine if it supports the conclusions of the report.

Such a review of the NIE is necessary, he argues, because the main conclusion of the report – that Iran had a nuclear weapons program but shut it down in the fall of 2003 – “flies in the face of virtually everything we know – or thought we knew – about the Iranian regime, its capabilities and its intentions.”

If that key judgment is incorrect, and the Iranians are in fact continuing to build nuclear weapons, “the political impact of its publication will be catastrophic,” Meyer said.

“Simply put, we need to know for sure whether the new Key Judgment is right or wrong,” he said. “And, given the long list of failures and reversals that has plagued our intelligence community during the last decade, it's reasonable to be skeptical.”

Former Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Robert G. Joseph believes that Iran’s continued production of fissile material – ostensibly for a civilian power program – shows that “Iran remains a threat.”

He believes that this capability brings Iran closer to a "nuclear weapons capability."

The same equipment and processes that are needed to enrich uranium to 4 percent for use in a civilian power reactor can also be used to enrich uranium to 93 percent to make a weapon, he argued at a State Department conference on Wednesday to commemorate Lt. Gen. Leslie Groves, father of the atomic bomb.

“In 2005, we had high confidence that they were pursuing a nuclear weapon,” he told Newsmax. “I just don’t feel good about this NIE,” which reverses that conclusion.

Joseph helped lead the effort to dismantle Libya’s previously undeclared nuclear weapons program in 2003-2004, along with Assistant Secretary of State for Verificatio Paula DeSutter.

“I know what I saw in Libya,” he said. “And I just don’t see that happening in Iran.”

Joseph recalls U.S. nuclear experts flooding into Libya to take away remnants of a turn-key uranium centrifuge plant bought from the Aq Khan network in Pakistan.

“We packed up hundreds of tons of nuclear enrichment equipment and shipped it to Oak Ridge, Tennessee,” he said. “That’s what I call a non-proliferation program – seeing the Libyan nuclear program sitting in Tennessee. I don’t know how things will end up with our Iranian friends, but I suspect it will be something different.”

Adding to his skepticism, he said, were the jubilant reactions of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and of

IAEA Secretary General Mohamed ElBaradei.

“I know this report will be used to marshal international support to stop us from putting pressure on Iran,” he said.

Joseph’s predecessor at the top arms control slot at the State Department was John Bolton, whose nomination to become the permanent U.S. representative to the United Nations was derailed by Senate Democrats in May 2005, with help from State Department official Thomas Fingar. Fingar is also the author of this latest National Intelligence Estimate on Iran. I trace his background and that of other authors of the NIE in my latest book, “Shadow Warriors.”

Just before the NIE was released last week, Bolton told me that his greatest fear was that changing assumptions about Iran’s capabilities would lead the intelligence community to miscalculate.

“If some of these underlying assumptions turn out to be wrong,” he said, “the Iranians can have weapons capability much earlier than the estimates will lead you to believe. And I, for one, do not believe in just-in-time

counter-proliferation.”

Bolton noted that the Iranians “are obviously aware of the risk they run” by continuing to enrich uranium, despite international demands that they suspend enrichment activities.

“Every day that goes by gives them more of an opportunity to harden their existing facilities or to build completely alternative facilities of which we have no knowledge. Our

lack of reliable intelligence inside Iran is substantial.”

Bolton believes the Iranians have made significant gains in their nuclear program by gaming the system, and that the State Department should have taken a harder line, instead of allowing protracted negotiations through the Europeans to continue.

“All this long period of time has put Iran in a much more favorable position. It is a classic case study why diplomacy is not cost-free. If we had been working on regime change effectively over the last four years, we would be in a lot different position today,” he said.

[Trueblue]

Bush wanted to start another war, and he didn't get by with lying to us this time. Nobody that I know of wants to be BFF with Iran. We just don't think it makes sense to get lied into another war.

[Wabash]

Bush wanted to start another war, and he didn't get by with lying to us this time. Nobody that I know of wants to be BFF with Iran. We just don't think it makes sense to get lied into another war.

No, you have it backwards....Bush wanted to prevent another war, just like he did with NK! Their nuke plant is being dismantled, diplomacy worked .....for now.

Bush wanted to prevent WWIII, but at the same time, let the assbite know that we would NOT cave to his looney rhetoric!
Still, the NIE report is MORE suspect all the time! My posts here have made that perfectly clear! I think Iran has everything ready to go, to build a nuke...

[Trueblue]

No, you have it backwards....Bush wanted to prevent another war, just like he did with NK! Their nuke plant is being dismantled, diplomacy worked .....for now.

Bush wanted to prevent WWIII, but at the same time, let the assbite know that we would NOT cave to his looney rhetoric!
Still, the NIE report is MORE suspect all the time! My posts here have made that perfectly clear! I think Iran has everything ready to go, to build a nuke...

No, I have it exactly right. Bush wanted to start a war.

Please realize that diplomacy does not include the kinds of things that Bush has been saying.

The NIE report is not suspect, Bush is suspect. I posted some rational articles that said that we still need to use caution, but the paranoid rants that say that the NIE is designed to make Bush look bad are insane.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Was there a source for the piece to tripe that wabby posted? A link would be nice.

I was greatly amused to see that hoekstra was one of the main sources. This is the moron who is still convinced that there are wmds in Iraq. Between hoekstra and john bolton, you could not ask for a bigger pair of fools aind idiots if you tried. Remeber, there are reasons why bolton is not in govt now in that he could not get confirmed by the Senate even when the repugs had control of the senate. If hoekstra thinks that the latest NIE is flawed, then it must be correct.

[Wabash]

No, I have it exactly right. Bush wanted to start a war.

Please realize that diplomacy does not include the kinds of things that Bush has been saying.

The NIE report is not suspect, Bush is suspect. I posted some rational articles that said that we still need to use caution, but the paranoid rants that say that the NIE is designed to make Bush look bad are insane.

I totally disagree with you on this...normal for us!
Mr. Timmerman, in the above article makes it pretty damn clear. I think an independent group needs to go over this NIE report, piece by piece.
Those that have been underminded by Bush or embarassed by him, will stoop as low as they need to go.
John Bolton was a tough, no nonsense guy and would have done a very thorough job. But, Fingar and his henchmen in Congress, sabotaged that...and the usual suspects are at it again!

[Yellowdogtexan]

Just for wabby and any other idiots who thinks that the current NIE is flawed. http://www.democracyarsenal.org/2007/12/the-national-il.htmlIn recent days conservative like Berman, Norman Podhoretz, Danielle Pletka and Jon Bolton, have been trying to cast doubt on the conclusions of the intelligence community. Now the Washington Post is picking up on it and lending the arguments more credibility. When reading these arguments it's worthwhile to remember a few basic facts that should absolutely discredit this entire crowd.

First, none of these people have access to the actual intelligence. They are sitting at think tanks outside of the intelligence community and simply haven't seen the data. This was a report that shows the basic consensus of the nation's 16 intelligence and it was produced on the Bush Administration's watch and ultimately approved by the Director of National Intelligence, Mike McConnell, who is a Bush Administration appointee.

Second, and this is even more important. This conservative and neo-conservative crowd has a long history of disregarding and manipulating intelligence when it doesn't fall conveniently into their world view. The Team B exercises in the late 1970s found that Soviet intentions and capabilities were much more dangerous than previously estimated by the intelligence community. It became part of the justification for a major military buildup against the Soviets. The Rumsfeld Commission in the 1990s was specifically set up to dispute the Intelligence Community's conclusions that the ballistic missile defense threat from developing countries to the American mainland was not an immediate danger. It became the basis for greater investment in a National Missile Defense. The Office of Special Plans that was set up in the Pentagon in the run up to the Iraq War, was specifically charged with trying to find connections between Al Qaeda and Iraq. It was used to support arguments for War.

In all of these cases conservatives played with and disregarded intelligence to help make their cases for a particular policy. And in all of these cases the conservatives were wrong.These neocons are jokes and only an idiot would be listening to these fools.

[Trueblue]

YTD, you nailed it with that quote. We have been lied to by years by war-mongers. Once it was the USSR, then Iraq, now Iran.

[Wabash]

Was there a source for the piece to tripe that wabby posted? A link would be nice.

I was greatly amused to see that hoekstra was one of the main sources. This is the moron who is still convinced that there are wmds in Iraq. Between hoekstra and john bolton, you could not ask for a bigger pair of fools aind idiots if you tried. Remeber, there are reasons why bolton is not in govt now in that he could not get confirmed by the Senate even when the repugs had control of the senate. If hoekstra thinks that the latest NIE is flawed, then it must be correct.


Neither one of those guys are fools....they just don't side with your looney tune assement or your looney tune Libs in Congress!
They did a typical hatchet job on Bolton, and unfortuantely, the wussie Pubs bought into the hype!
Bolton was too scarry for the pussies in DC!

[Wabash]

YTD, you nailed it with that quote. We have been lied to by years by war-mongers. Once it was the USSR, then Iraq, now Iran.

The Real fools are those that say that about ALL those countries and the people in the know have been protecting your sorry asses down thru the years!

Every damn one of those countries was, and still is a threat to the USA!

[Wabash]

Just for wabby and any other idiots who thinks that the current NIE is flawed. http://www.democracyarsenal.org/2007/12/the-national-il.htmlThese neocons are jokes and only an idiot would be listening to these fools.

I already posted yesterday on McConnels suspicion of this report! He is not at all happy about the 180 degree turn around!

[Wabash]

If we listened to anything ydt has to say, we would have been a 3rd world country 25 years ago!
I don't know why you buy into this jibberish TB...

[Trueblue]

The Real fools are those that say that about ALL those countries and the people in the know have been protecting your sorry asses down thru the years!

Every damn one of those countries was, and still is a threat to the USA!

Yes, they are a threat. However, the level of the threat was exaggerated. We were manipulated.

If we listened to anything ydt has to say, we would have been a 3rd world country 25 years ago!
I don't know why you buy into this jibberish TB...

Sixteen agencies. Sixteen agencies lied for no reason but to get the Bushies. Right.

[Lone Laugher]

The New Conservative Handbook

Lesson Number One:


Pick an enemy. It does not matter who it is, just pick one and make it known that this entity is a threat to the Americanm way of life. Name a country, a political group...it dosen't matter. It works best if the name sounds odd or exotic in some way.

Then, accuse the enemy of mounting a threat. The best choice is a nuclear threat. It dosn't matter if they actually have a nuclear weapon...or a means to deliver the weapon...just establish that they want the weapon...that will suffice. Since every nation wants a nuclear weapon, the task is quite easy.

Tell the populace that if we do not act NOW and diffuse the enemy's ability to attack, we will be seeing mushroom clouds as we sit down to Sunday dinner. Make ads, give speeches...tie it into another enemy if possible...Mexican immigrants always serve this purpose well.

If we are not succesful in getting the people behind a new war effort....and time goes by ( 6 months is long enough ) without us being attacked by the enemy....stand up and claim a diplomatic victory. It is a win-win.

[Trueblue]

Right out of the playbook. This is not what conservative is supposed to mean, but it is what it has come to mean.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Neither one of those guys are fools....they just don't side with your looney tune assement or your looney tune Libs in Congress!
They did a typical hatchet job on Bolton, and unfortuantely, the wussie Pubs bought into the hype!
Bolton was too scarry for the pussies in DC!Again, is there a source or link to the piece of tripe you posted. The fact that you duck this question indicates that the source is weak.

Hoekstra is indeed an idiot and a fool. Only a complete idiot would continue to claim that there are WMDs in Iraq. You have to be pretty stupid to believe that there are WMDs in Iraq. Even bush is not that stupid.

As for bolton, when the repugs who controlled the Senate decided that he was too big of a fool to be confirmed, you know that he is an idiot. bolton is a joke as evidences by the fact that his own party would not fight to get him confirmed when the GOP had control over the Senate.

[Yellowdogtexan]

I already posted yesterday on McConnels suspicion of this report! He is not at all happy about the 180 degree turn around!Your ability to be WRONG and clueless is amazing. McConnel is actually defending the NIE contrary to your silly and WRONG claims. http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004850.phpFaced with the inconvenient assessment that Iran doesn't have a nuclear weapons program, GOP Senators are running an old game plan: create a commission that will treat the truth and a lie as equal possibilities. However, Michael McConnell, the director of national intelligence, is unequivocally standing by the National Intelligence Estimate on Iran.....

The intelligence community isn't backing down in the face of the right-wing pressure. "We certainly stand by the product," says DNI spokeswoman Vanee Vines. "It represents the consensus of intelligence community. That was clear when we released it. … We stand by it as comprehensive and accurate." But don't expect the braying from the right about appeasement and betrayal to cease.Wabby, do you tire of beings always WRONG???

[Wabash]

Yes, they are a threat. However, the level of the threat was exaggerated. We were manipulated.



Sixteen agencies. Sixteen agencies lied for no reason but to get the Bushies. Right.

I never said that 16 agencies lied, just that it would appear that Fingar was instrumental in doping the facts!

Again, is there a source or link to the piece of tripe you posted. The fact that you duck this question indicates that the source is weak.

Hoekstra is indeed an idiot and a fool. Only a complete idiot would continue to claim that there are WMDs in Iraq. You have to be pretty stupid to believe that there are WMDs in Iraq. Even bush is not that stupid.

As for bolton, when the repugs who controlled the Senate decided that he was too big of a fool to be confirmed, you know that he is an idiot. bolton is a joke as evidences by the fact that his own party would not fight to get him confirmed when the GOP had control over the Senate.

I still believe that there are WMDs in Iraq...no doubt in my mind at all, they are buried in that vast desert. I have said this all along and still believe it! Nice that I think like Hoekstra huh?
I already told you what I thought on Mr. Bolton.. He is a tough no nonsense type of guy and he skeeered all the pussies in DC! A little too hard core for them and that's exactly who we need in the UN!

Your ability to be WRONG and clueless is amazing. McConnel is actually defending the NIE contrary to your silly and WRONG claims. http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004850.phpWabby, do you tire of beings always WRONG???

Nope, I don't tire at all, because I am right and YOU are wrong!

[Trueblue]

I never said that 16 agencies lied, just that it would appear that Fingar was instrumental in doping the facts!

Whether you realize it or not, that is what you are saying.