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View Full Version : 'Big girls don't cry,' but big boys can?


Kurtz
10-24-2007, 06:47 PM
NEW YORK — "Please, please, please, just give the dog back," Ellen DeGeneres wept on national TV last week. It was a moment that quickly established itself in the pop culture firmament, less for the plight of Iggy the adopted terrier than for the copious crying itself.

Setting aside the question of whether those sobs were 100% genuine, tears are a natural human response, and public figures are obviously not immune. But some who study this most basic expression of feeling will tell you that in this day and age, it can be easier for a crying man to be taken seriously than a crying woman.

In politics, it's a far cry (OK, pun intended) from 1972, when Sen. Ed Muskie's presidential campaign was derailed by what were perceived to be tears in response to a newspaper attack on his wife. Whether he actually cried is still up for debate. But decades later, an occasional Clintonesque tear is seen as a positive thing.

Bill Clinton, that is.

"Bill could cry, and did, but Hillary can't," says Tom Lutz, a professor at the University of California, Riverside, who authored an exhaustive history of crying. In other words, the same tearful response that would be seen as sensitivity in Bill could be seen as a lack of control in his wife.

But there are additional rules for acceptable public crying. "We're talking about dropping a tear," Lutz notes, "no more than a tear or two." And it all depends on the perceived seriousness of the subject matter. Thus Jon Stewart or David Letterman could choke up with impunity just after 9/11. But a dog-adoption problem is a whole other matter.

In a recently published study at Penn State, researchers sought to explore differing perceptions of crying in men and women, presenting their 284 subjects with a series of hypothetical vignettes.

What they found is that reactions depended on the type of crying, and who was doing it. A moist eye was viewed much more positively than open crying, and males got the most positive responses.

"Women are not making it up when they say they're damned if they do, damned if they don't," said Stephanie Shields, the psychology professor who conducted the study. "If you don't express any emotion, you're seen as not human, like Mr. Spock on Star Trek," she said. "But too much crying, or the wrong kind, and you're labeled as overemotional, out of control, and possibly irrational."

That comes as no surprise to Suzyn Waldman, a well-known broadcaster of Yankee games on New York's WCBS Radio.

Earlier this month, she choked up for several seconds on live radio after the Yankees had just been eliminated from the playoffs. She was describing the scene as manager Joe Torre's coaches choked up themselves, watching him at the podium and foreseeing the end of an era.

Her tearful report quickly became an Internet hit, and she was mocked far and wide, especially on radio, with her voice, for example, played over the song "Big Girls Don't Cry."

"This turned into something pretty ugly," Waldman said in an interview. "I don't throw around the word 'sexist,' but this was as sexist as it gets."

She also wrote a passionate editorial in Newsday defending her brief display of emotion. "While the anger and sarcasm that I can and do display is all right with people," she wrote, "the occasional tear is scary and is ridiculed. Why?"

While Waldman notes that female anger in the clubhouse, is OK — it makes her seem tough, she says — one recent study indicates that perceptions of anger, too, differ according to gender.

"Angry women are seen as emotionally out of control," Yale social psychologist Victoria Brescoll, who conducted three experiments on how people perceive female anger, told the Yale Alumni Magazine, "while angry men are clearly rewarded for their behavior."

For a little historical perspective, says Lutz, author of Crying: The Natural and Cultural History of Tears, it's helpful to look back to the 19th century, when skillful politicians like Abraham Lincoln used tears as a natural part of their oratory.

The tide later shifted against male crying, but in the last 30 to 40 years male crying has gained in acceptability. "Every president since Ronald Reagan has used tears at some point," says Shields, the Penn State psychologist.

As for women politicians, many remember the 1987 incident in which Rep. Patricia Schroeder, D-Colo., had to defend herself against charges of weakness after she wept while announcing her decision not to run for president. "I think it's a sign of compassion," she said later.

Military figures have cried at critical moments in history. Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf cried at a Christmas Eve ceremony in front of his troops, and when interviewed by Barbara Walters, Lutz notes.

There seem to be few limits on crying if you're an entertainment figure. Johnny Carson's tears were touching on the last night of his career, while serenaded by Bette Midler. As for awards shows, aren't we even a little disappointed (and bored) when a winner doesn't cry?

But in DeGeneres' case, along with the strong support from fans and many dog lovers, she also endured some criticism and mockery, especially from fellow comic Bill Maher. (To recap: DeGeneres had adopted Iggy from a rescue organization, then given it to her hairdresser's family when the dog didn't get along with her cats. That was against the rules, and the rescue group took the dog back, prompting her emotional appeal.)

Maher decided to respond on behalf of an entire gender: The opposite one.

"At this moment when the entire nation is saying 'Hmm, can we have a woman president? Maybe they're too emotional,' I don't think this is helping," Maher said on his talk show.

"If I was a woman," he added, "I would be embarrassed right now. I would be embarrassed for all womankind."


Who Can Cry? (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-10-24-crying-men_N.htm?csp=34)

Cookie Parker
10-24-2007, 08:28 PM
This is so true and nothing I had thought about it. Women cannot cry. We are weak. We cannot get angry...we are out of control emotionally. Can we smile? Prolly not..we're being a "bitch". Can we joke and tell sexist jokes and be flirty? Possibly...uh....NO....we're whores.

Forcryingoutloud..would someone tell me when I BECAME the Barbie doll?

issac the dragon
10-24-2007, 09:26 PM
I am so sick of seeing men man up to show their emotions. Talk about phony. Bush senior cried more than a two year old. And all the Republicans would smile and say how manly he was.

I think men are afraid that if American women ever get real power, we'll retaliate. I hope so.

cassandra
10-24-2007, 09:30 PM
I think that this is so true. Terribly unfair. I have cried when I wish I hadn't. It is seen as weakness in society and it is sad.

Men are seen as more compassionate and somehow a better person if they shed a tear.

I have to say that I personally think it is a humbled thing. Men cannot stand to be transparent. Women are more comfortable with people seeing the real them. (Of course, not about their physical body though. :lol )

Saguaro
10-24-2007, 09:37 PM
I for one am sick and tired of the way women are treated.We are darned if we do and darned if we don't !

Kurtz
10-25-2007, 07:05 AM
I for one am sick and tired of the way women are treated.We are darned if we do and darned if we don't !

:yep

Kurtz
10-25-2007, 09:23 AM
How come this is in The ER? :confused

toxic
10-25-2007, 12:29 PM
IMHO,
I think women pay more attention to someone being critical of them, than someone giving them a complement. For some reason, they think the guy bitching to them about their actions is being "truthful", and the guy being complementary is just trying to get into their pants.

The only advice I would give to a woman is, Don't cry at work about everyday work issues. Guys are at a loss for what is going on and don't know how to deal with it. This includes me. I had a woman boss once and she would cry occasionally. I was simply at a loss how to handle it with a boss.

About flirting ... I can see the misunderstanding there too. Men don't flirt ... we try to get laid. If you flirt with us and then later think it is inappropriate, it could cause some confusion. If you are in a bigger group of men and women and telling a joke, I think it is less likely to be misunderstood.

I'm sure someone will think I'm bitching, but I'm just trying to share one male's perspective FYI.

toxic
10-25-2007, 12:38 PM
IMHO,
I think a lot of the men try not to be transparent. They worry about how they are perceived. I think Conservatives tend to be afraid to speak out on their thoughts and fear others will think they are weird or disagree with them. Liberals mostly tend not to give a shit who thinks they are weird.

sparks
10-28-2007, 12:09 AM
I'm sorry, but sometimes the tears come and there's nothing you can do to stop it. :shrug

But ya know...it's "real"...so there it is.