Coulter wants convert Jews, Jews call for boycott of Coulter [Archive] - The Political Asylum - Forums for Intelligent Discussion & Debate

Yellowdogtexan

10-11-2007, 11:27 PM

Here is a great statement about coulter's plan to make america better by converting the Jews to christianity. http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/10/sweet_blog_special_schakowsky.html#moreSCHAKOWSKY CONDEMNS ANN COULTER’S REMARKS

Washington, D.C.—U.S. Representative Jan Schakowsky (D-IL), a Chief Deputy Whip, released the following statement in response to Ann Coulter’s anti-Semitic remarks on Donny Deutsch’s CNBC show “The Big Idea.”

“Last night, columnist Ann Coulter stooped to yet another low when she made anti-Semitic remarks on Donny Deutsch's CNBC show "The Big Idea.” Coulter’s remarks are an insult to anyone who respects religious freedom and diversity.

Ann Coulter said that it would be better if we were all Christian. Later in the program, she went on to say that “Christians consider themselves: perfected Jews.” Ms. Coulter’s remarks demonstrate her lack of understanding and respect for other religions (see transcript below).

While this may be just another stunt by Ann Coulter to promote her new book, I believe her anti-Semitic remarks are hurtful and damaging. This is not the first time that Coulter has made insensitive and ignorant remarks concerning other religions. It is pathetic that the only way Coulter can sell books is to create controversy by make outrageous and offensive remarks about non-Christians.

While Coulter may say that she did not mean to offend Mr. Deutsch or people of Jewish faith, her remarks fuel the same type of hatred and anti-Semitism that Jews have been battling for thousands of years. Along with Donny Deutsch, I am deeply offended.”

Izdaari

10-12-2007, 01:33 AM

Of course, short of brainwashing techniques, it isn't possible to "convert" anyone against their will. It's also true that we Christians, by the nature of our faith, want to -- indeed are commanded to -- share our Good News with all the world.

I would love for every Jew, every Hindu, every Buddhist, every Muslim, every Sikh, every Wiccan, every Reformed Druid, every atheist, et al (let that represent everybody I had to leave out) to convert to Christianity. Ain't gonna happen of course, but it's perfectly fine for me to say I want that... and it's perfectly fine for Ann Coulter to say she wants that.

What Coulter said as quoted in the OP's article is not only fine, but absolutely true and absolutely commendable, if a tad impolitic in terms of PCness. But provocative and controversial is what Ann Coulter does; every time you guys let yourselves be trolled by her, you're playing into her hands.

Ringo

10-12-2007, 05:45 AM

It depends which version. I have seen several interviews and the spin or denial has evolved over the years. In the more recent interview, the Iranian president did not deny the existence of the holocaust but questioned why did the Jews have to select Israel as their homeland. The Iranian president argued in effect that since Germany was responsible for the holocaust, then Germany should have forfeited sufficient land for the Jews to establish a Jewish homeland. That view is dumb but is not as offensive as the out right denial of the existence of thet holocaust which the Iranian president appears to have back away from in the more recent interviews.

BTW, you asked nicely and so I responded.

He must be in denial of the Holy Land, or the History of Mespotamia-Persia, to make the statement about Germany? I don't believe we choose our history, and the Holy Land was not a branch operation strung out in the ME or Europe! He definately wants Israel destroyed, not so much for religious reasons, but more for their Military Poweer and a clog in Monkey Boys plans!

You didn't say your thoughts on the Radical Muslim harshness of attempting to change people to Islam, I find that far more appalling than just an idea! Religions compete for your Soul on a daily basis, but I can find no one killed over it by a Jehova's Witness!

Yellowdogtexan

10-12-2007, 04:31 PM

The ADL has issued an statement of coulter's desire to convert all Jews to christianity. http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/5149_12.htmNew York, NY, October 12, 2007 ... The Anti-Defamation League strongly condemns Ann Coulter for her anti-Semitic comment that Christians "want Jews to be perfected" in an interview with Donny Deutsch on CNBC's "The Big Idea." During her October 8 appearance, Coulter suggested that Jews should convert, adding that, "we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say. … That's what Christianity is."

Ann Coulter may be a political pundit but she clearly knows very little about religious theology and interfaith issues. Coulter's remarks are outrageous, offensive and a throwback to the centuries-old teaching of contempt for Jews and Judaism. The notion that Jews are religiously inferior or imperfect because they do not accept Christian beliefs was the basis for 2,000 years of church-based anti-Semitism. While she is entitled to her beliefs, using mainstream media to espouse the idea that Judaism needs to be replaced with Christianity and that each individual Jew is somehow deficient and needs to be "perfected," is rank Christian supersessionism and has been rejected by the Catholic Church and the vast majority of mainstream Christian denominations.

Clearly, Ann Coulter needs a wake-up call about the power of words to injure others and fuel hatred. She needs an education, too, about the roots of anti-Semitism and the shared values of Judaism and Christianity. Christians and Jews have worked tirelessly for more than 40 years to overcome the past and to promote a more tolerant and pluralistic vision for the future and especially for America.

Donny Deutsch is to be commended for his immediate and forceful denunciation of Coulter's statements, for calling her remarks personally offensive, and for rightly characterizing her suggestion that Jews are inferior to Christians as anti-Semitism.

Trueblue

10-12-2007, 06:45 PM

People need to find their own paths to God, IMO. Coulter is trolling, Iz, but nobody's being "played" by Coulter by pointing out that she is full of shit.

Yellowdogtexan

10-13-2007, 07:30 AM

Here is yet another Jewish group attacking coulter and her anti-semetic statements. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/12/national/main3361954.shtmlJewish groups are firing back at Ann Coulter after the blond-tressed pundit said during an interview yesterday that Jews need to be "perfected" into Christians.

The American Jewish Committee issued a statement declaring that it is "outraged" by Coulter's assertion on Donny Deutsch's CNBC show "The Big Idea" that Jews require "perfecting" by becoming Christians.

"Ms. Coulter's assertion that Jews are somehow religiously imperfect smacks of the most odious anti-Jewish sentiment," said AJC President Richard Sideman.

Ringo

10-13-2007, 09:59 AM

Why the dodge? Does the TRUTH have you Liberals tounges? You bash Coulter, but no one wioll respond to the VIOLENT attempt of Radical Muslims to change people over to Islam. C'mon Dog get a PAIR and tell us a your view, as being indignant about ANN, but allowing KILLERS an out is not being much of a American!

Melissa l

10-13-2007, 09:59 AM

So Ann is total scum for hurting all the Jews feelings for her anti-semitic remarks, but all the Chritstians were idiots for getting all upset for the piece of trash photo mocking the Lord's supper?????? Cant have it both way's you bunch of hypocrites...........

Kurtz

10-13-2007, 10:01 AM

Coulter didn't hurt the feeling's of Jews, she insulted the majority of people
in this country again with her stupidity 'n hate. BIG difference.

Melissa l

10-13-2007, 10:20 AM

Kurtz

10-13-2007, 10:26 AM

Oh well, if people watch the news 24, 7 every day everyone at some point is going to be insulted or get their feelings hurt. So folks just better get used to it. Its a free speech thing ya know........

Coulter certainly uses her free speech rights for her own benefit, so should you.
Free speech is limited to many in the world, appreciate yours.

Melissa l

10-13-2007, 10:30 AM

Oh I very much appreciate freedom of speech. I served 10yrs in the military and was willing to give my life for the right to have free speech.

Kurtz

10-13-2007, 10:36 AM

Oh I very much appreciate freedom of speech. I served 10yrs in the military and was willing to give my life for the right to have free speech.

Oh, I think bein' an American gives one that right.
And I was a U. S. Army Drill Sergeant, so what? :lol

Melissa l

10-13-2007, 10:51 AM

Kurtz

10-13-2007, 10:54 AM

So, some give a little, some give alot, some give all.... Ann has a right to her opinions... If folks dont want to hear her then they should turn off their tv and take a long walk and breath deeply. That's what I have to do 9 times out of 10 when I read what Yellowdog writes....lol....

:cheers

I commend you on your copin' skills.
Some could construe that as a cut 'n run, or maybe even a fight or flight, but whatever works for ya 'n don't hurt ya is a good thang. I often take walks to get away 'n sometimes I tell others to take a walk, just depends on how I'm feelin'. :lmao

Melissa l

10-13-2007, 11:08 AM

Well my company answer is always "agree to disagree"....,we all have to live together on this planet together so I always try to live and let live. But there are certain moral core's about one's self that you cannot compromise. If you were to do so than you would be an empty shell of a human being. Its life's struggles that makes us who we are. As a fellow American and as a fellow human being I would take a bullet to protect Yellowdog. But as a Christian, I will not compromise nor loose my soul by embracing the ideas that Jesus is not the Son of God. I respect his right to believe the Jesus is not the Son of God, but I do ask that he respect my right to believe that He is.......

Kurtz

10-13-2007, 11:17 AM

issac the dragon

10-13-2007, 11:29 AM

Yellowdogtexan is what? Not stupid enough to fall for the repeatedly dying god of the pagans? Does it embarass Christians that they worship a trumped up version if him? It ought to.

Yellowdogtexan

10-13-2007, 11:46 AM

After watching the show clip, I agree with the LA Times in that this is not the normal publicity seeking crap from Coulter but is the real Coulter. http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-rutten13oct13,0,1859447.column?coll=la-home-centerIn part, it's because this time Coulter didn't intend to ignite the firestorm that's currently raging around her; in part, it's because the implications of these latest remarks simply are too threatening to be allowed to stand....

Here, for example, is what transpired on the airwaves Friday. Deutsch went onto NBC's "Today" show and called it "scary" that, in this instance, Coulter was not being deliberately provocative. "We're playing with dangerous words in our society -- there's no accountability, there's a glibness that we in the media kind of elevate."

Meanwhile, Coulter was on the Kevin McCullough radio talk show, making the utterly absurd case that Deutsch somehow had ambushed her. On his blog later in the day, McCullough agreed. Deutsch, he said, "is an angry anti-Christian bigot, looking to make a name for himself by biting into Christian icons."

How many Americans really want to follow Ann Coulter into this sort of confrontation? Not many, one suspects. But are enough of them willing to give up, once and for all, the sort of dangerous fun she and her rhetorical fellow travelers provide?Coulter had already unleashed the tag line or stupid outrageous statement for this book when she announced that the vote should be taken away from women to make sure that the Democrats never get back into power. These comments from Coulter reflect her real beliefs about the Jewish people and it is clear that Coulter is a very much an anti-semite.

Yellowdogtexan

10-13-2007, 11:52 AM

But as a Christian, I will not compromise nor loose my soul by embracing the ideas that Jesus is not the Son of God. I respect his right to believe the Jesus is not the Son of God, but I do ask that he respect my right to believe that He is.......I believe strongly in the FIRST AMENDMENT which means that everyone is entitled to their own religious views. Most of my family are still christians and I respect their views and go to their holidays.

Judaism was a good choice for me and my family (other than making them a target for various hate groups and anti-semites). In fact conversion to Judaisim is not that easy because you have to really push and take classes. There is a tradition that you have to ask three times before a rabbi will agree to convert you.

In any event, I am convinced that Coulter has really gone off the deep end. She has always been offensive on purpose but this is a case where she was not trying to be offensive or outrageous and showed part of her true self and it was not a pretty picture.

issac the dragon

10-13-2007, 11:57 AM

, "is an angry anti-Christian bigot, looking to make a name for himself by biting into Christian icons."

Ann Coulter is a Christian icon? That should be enough to drive anyone away from calling themselves a Christian. That and Pat Buchannan, Americas pet fascist.

Ringo

10-13-2007, 01:09 PM

I believe strongly in the FIRST AMENDMENT which means that everyone is entitled to their own religious views. Most of my family are still christians and I respect their views and go to their holidays.

Judaism was a good choice for me and my family (other than making them a target for various hate groups and anti-semites). In fact conversion to Judaisim is not that easy because you have to really push and take classes. There is a tradition that you have to ask three times before a rabbi will agree to convert you.

In any event, I am convinced that Coulter has really gone off the deep end. She has always been offensive on purpose but this is a case where she was not trying to be offensive or outrageous and showed part of her true self and it was not a pretty picture.
But your AFRAID to address the Radical Muslim's when they say convert or die and have KILLED to prove their sincerity? Coulters views do not upset people near as much as her RIGHT to say what she feels, just like we allow Reid, Durbin, Pelosi the Clintons, Kerry and others to expouse their HATE for Bush & the Troops!

I am sure you are aware that Jesse Jackson is one of your BIGGEST Jew Haters, and of course I am sure KKK Byrd isn't far behind, so try to address this instead of cut & pastes that no one gives a rats ass about as they are from Liberal Media outlets, which means HALF Truths!!

Ringo

10-13-2007, 01:20 PM

Oh, I think bein' an American gives one that right.
And I was a U. S. Army Drill Sergeant, so what? :lol

What were the TOP 3 things recruits brought to Basic training? Where did you DI at?

Kurtz

10-13-2007, 01:33 PM

What were the TOP 3 things recruits brought to Basic training? Where did you DI at?

I trained MALES at Ft Jackson, SC 'n you can stand at ease, soldier.

That's as much of MY history I answer to you since
I sense you might want to size up the dick I don't have.

We could go back 'n forth with 'promotion' questions all damn day. :lmao

I ETS'd years ago, that means Ended my Tour of Service. :lol

Trueblue

10-13-2007, 04:52 PM

I believe strongly in the FIRST AMENDMENT which means that everyone is entitled to their own religious views. Most of my family are still christians and I respect their views and go to their holidays.

Judaism was a good choice for me and my family (other than making them a target for various hate groups and anti-semites). In fact conversion to Judaisim is not that easy because you have to really push and take classes. There is a tradition that you have to ask three times before a rabbi will agree to convert you.

In any event, I am convinced that Coulter has really gone off the deep end. She has always been offensive on purpose but this is a case where she was not trying to be offensive or outrageous and showed part of her true self and it was not a pretty picture.

Well said, but it sure amazes me that you have to explain this....

Anybody who said that Christians "couldn't" be offended by Piss Christ is clueless, and anybody who says that I can't be offended by Coulter's idiocy is likewise.

Ringo

10-14-2007, 11:20 AM

I trained MALES at Ft Jackson, SC 'n you can stand at ease, soldier.

That's as much of MY history I answer to you since
I sense you might want to size up the dick I don't have.

We could go back 'n forth with 'promotion' questions all damn day. :lmao

I ETS'd years ago, that means Ended my Tour of Service. :lol

It was a CIVIL question!! I was told by Dad, a Vietnam Vet to bring Cotton balls, Q-Tips, & 3 rolls of Stamps The first two are great for cleaning your Weapon and the stamps are better than money! I booted at Ft Leonardwood and got along great, as I was in excellent shape, so other than the normal psyche games, it went well, although we lost 3 in the first 2 weeks!

Kurtz

10-14-2007, 11:41 AM

It was a CIVIL question!! I was told by Dad, a Vietnam Vet to bring Cotton balls, Q-Tips, & 3 rolls of Stamps The first two are great for cleaning your Weapon and the stamps are better than money! I booted at Ft Leonardwood and got along great, as I was in excellent shape, so other than the normal psyche games, it went well, although we lost 3 in the first 2 weeks!

You, civil? :faint

Your dad is of my era, I served with many a great man from back then, I'm sure your dad is one of those kind. I still clean with cotton balls 'n Q-tips, but I don't inspect with a white glove anymore. On occasion I do strap on my old jump boots that still shine to this day. Drills always stood a good foot back from trainees coz they never could keep their boots off of ours. I like discipline, but I lack some military bearin' these days, there just seems to be a lack of respect for civility anymore.
My apologies. :howdy

Yellowdogtexan

10-14-2007, 11:40 PM

Here is a great piece on the christian desire to convert Jews. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_obsession.htmlOver the past decade there has been an alarming increase in the influence of evangelical Christianity. This growth has been accompanied by an astonishing increase in Christian missionary activities which target Jews for conversion. The annual budget for one such missionary group, "Jews for Jesus," is over $12 million. Well over 1,000 missionary groups, which actively work to convert Jews worldwide, spend over $250 million each year on their efforts. They sponsor hundreds of full-time missionaries, as well as television and radio programs, and have created over 400 "Messianic synagogues," which strive to appear Jewish but are, in fact, Christian.....

THE Theological OBSESSION

The Christian gospel is described as being "to the Jew first and also to the Greek [gentile]" (Romans 1:16). Fundamentalist evangelical Christians interpret this to mean that they have a mandate to convert every person, but especially Jews.

Many fundamentalist Christians believe that the Jews are the key to bringing about the "Second Coming" of Jesus and salvation to all of mankind. To prove their point, they quote the passages, "Salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22) and "You will not see me until you [the Jews] say, " is he [Jesus] that comes in the name of the Lord'" (Matthew 23:39).

Some believe that Jesus' return is dependent upon the conversion of exactly 144,000 Jews (based upon the seventh chapter of Revelation) and that the rest of the Jews will be wiped out during the great tribulation that will accompany the return of Jesus. In the words of Richard Yao, a non-Jewish former fundamentalist:

"The disturbing thing about all this is that millions of people in this country are getting used to the idea that it's okay for millions and millions of people [Jews] to die in this terrible holocaust [tribulation], because that's a requirement for Jesus to return. I think that's very, very scary."

THE PSYCHOLOGICAL OBSESSION

Since the concept of a Messiah was originally and exclusively a Jewish concept, the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah by the Jews has always posed a serious paradox and dilemma for the Christian Church. Therefore, in the eyes of many evangelical fundamentalists, each conversion of a Jew to Christianity becomes a corroboration of their faith.

For centuries, the response to the Jewish rejection of Jesus has been persecution of Jews rationalized as G-d's divine punishment for having rejected Jesus. The fire of prejudice was fueled by New Testament passages such as:

"You [Jews] are of your father the devil." (John 8:44)

"The Jews who killed both Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, they are not pleasing to G-d." (I Thessalonians 2:15)

"All the people [Jews] answered and said, his blood be upon us and on our children." (Matthew 27:25)

Most fundamentalists will argue that the perpetrators of the history of atrocities against the Jews were not "true" Christians. However, according to many historians, it is precisely such New Testament rhetoric that is responsible for creating the atmosphere in which such events could transpire.2

Today, after almost 2,000 years of Jewish rejection of Jesus, the dilemma still exists. It is out of this tremendous theological and psychological need that the fundamentalist Christians have committed millions of dollars to develop new, sophisticated and often deceptive techniques to convert Jews.The attempts of the christian right to convert Jews to christianity has been well documented.

Yellowdogtexan

10-15-2007, 12:35 AM

This is from a great website that deals with the christian attempts to convert Jews to christianity. This site has a very good comment about coulter. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/alerts/2007/coulter.htmlAnn Coulter’s statement, that Jews need to be perfected by accepting Jesus, simply articulated what evangelical Christians believe in their hearts but avoid in order to make their message more palatable. By saying Jews need to be perfected she is replacing the word “perfected” for the classic missionary term “completed.” This insinuates that Jews are incomplete and imperfect.

Ann quotes Jerry Falwell that Jews can serve God with the law but Christians have the improved fast-track through the blood of Jesus. In fact, Pat Robertson said the same thing. When I challenged him in person he admitted that his Christian beliefs also teaches that it is impossible for Jews to keep the entire law since we all “fall short” and can only get to heaven through Jesus.

Evangelicals may claim they love Jews and Israel, but until they respect Judaism as a valid path to God they will continue to seek our conversion. We need to educate Christians what the Bible really teaches in context and in the original Hebrew. Until then they will continue to repeat the same inaccurate teachings that Christianity has been preaching for centuries. To get started you can download, for free in 7 languages, my Jewish Response to Missionaries handbook at www.JewsForJudaism.org.

Izdaari

10-15-2007, 12:48 AM

As if there were something wrong with attempting to convince Jews they missed the boat on the coming of the Messiah. But of course there isn't. And if they aren't yet convinced on that point? We do still love them anyway.

But I don't think the conversion of the Jews has anything to do with the Second Coming. That will happen on God's timetable, when He's good and ready, and nothing humans can do will affect it.

Yellowdogtexan

10-15-2007, 06:14 AM

Jews are happy with their religion and it is very arrogant of christians to think that they know what is best for the Jewish people. Here is a nice passage from the website on dealing with christian cults trying to convert Jews. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.htmlOne thing upon which the entire Jewish community and several Christian denominations agree is that "Hebrew Christian" movements are not a part of Judaism. To be a "Jew for Jesus" is as absurd as being a "Christian for Buddha" and as ridiculous as "kosher pork;" it is an obvious contradiction. To paraphrase Elijah, if you are a follower of Jesus, call yourself a Christian. If you are a Jew, practice Judaism. Don't deceive yourself; you can't be both.

In reality, Judaism is a most beautiful and spiritually fulfilling path to serving G-d with all your heart, soul and might.

The Book of Proverbs 3:17-18 describes the Torah in these words, "Its ways are ways of pleasantness, and its paths are peace. It is a tree of life to those who lay hold of it." The best defense against the growing onslaught of missionary propaganda is a deep commitment to Judaism and a thorough understanding of the missionary arguments and the relevant Jewish responses.

AYFR

10-15-2007, 06:19 AM

Christians are only doing as Jesus directed

Matthew 28:19
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Yellowdogtexan

10-15-2007, 06:37 AM

Christians are only doing as Jesus directed,jesus may be your messiah but he is not not the Jewish Messiah. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_messiah.htmlOne of the basic premises upon which Christianity rests is that Jesus was the Messiah predicted in the Jewish Bible. Judaism has always rejected this belief. Since the goal of "Hebrew Christian" missionaries is to convince Jews that Jesus did in fact fulfill the requirements of the promised Messiah, it is necessary to examine the Jewish understanding of the Messiah to understand why such claims are simply not true.

THE HEBREW ROOTS OF THE WORD "MESSIAH"

The Hebrew word for "Messiah" is "Moshiach --." The literal and proper translation of this word is "anointed," which refers to a ritual of anointing and consecrating someone or some-thing with oil. (I Samuel 10:1-2) It is used throughout the Jewish Bible in reference to a wide variety of individuals and objects; for example, a Jewish king (I Kings 1:39), Jewish priests (Leviticus 4:3), prophets (Isaiah 61:1), the Jewish Temple and its utensils (Exodus 40:9-11), unleavened bread (Numbers 6:15), and a non-Jewish king (Cyrus king of Persia, Isaiah 45:1).

THE CRITERIA TO BE FULFILLED BY THE JEWISH MESSIAH

In an accurate translation of the Jewish Scriptures, the word "Moshiach" is never translated as "Messiah," but as "anointed."1Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by G-d to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah.

These specific criteria are as follows:

1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)

2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)

3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)

6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel chapter 37:24-28:

"And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah.

WHY JESUS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE JEWISH MESSIAH

A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that, although Jesus was Jewish, he did not fulfill any of the other criteria. An examination of the contradictory accounts of Jesus' genealogy demonstrates a number of difficulties with the fulfillment of the second criterion. Specifically, the New Testament claims that Jesus did not have a physical father. The Jewish Scriptures, however, clearly state that a person's genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one's physical father (Numbers 1:18, Jeremiah 33:17). Therefore, Jesus cannot possibly be a descendent of the tribe of Judah nor of King David and King Solomon.

There are even further problems with any attempts to use the Jewish Scriptures to prove Jesus' genealogy through Joseph, the husband of Mary (Jesus' mother). For the New Testament claims that Joseph was a descendent of King Jeconiah, who in the Hebrew Bible was cursed to never have a descendent "sitting on the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah" (Jeremiah 22:30). Joseph's genealogy, even if it were transmittable to Jesus, would only serve to further disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.

Finally, there is the problem of the contradictory accounts of Jesus' genealogy in Matthew, Chapter 1 and Luke, Chapter 3. The common Christian explanation of this contradiction claims that Luke's genealogy is that of Jesus' mother, Mary. However, this is unfounded, even according to the Greek original. In addition, it has already been established that genealogy is transferred solely through the father, making this attempted explanation completely irrelevant. Even if one could trace one's genealogy through one's mother, there would be the additional problem that Luke 3:31 lists Mary as a descendent of David through Nathan, Solomon's brother, and not through Solomon himself as required according to the prophesy in I Chronicles 22:10 of the Jewish Bible.

The third, fourth, fifth and sixth criteria have obviously not been fulfilled -- neither during Jesus' time nor since. Any Christian claims that these final criteria will be fulfilled in a "Second Coming" are irrelevant because the concept of the Messiah coming twice has no scriptural basis.

To summarize, we cannot know that someone is the Messiah until he fulfills all of the above criteria.

The Christian understanding of the Messiah and Jesus differs greatly from the Jewish biblical view. These differences developed as a result of the Church's influence during the time of the Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicaea that issued the Nicene Creed in 325 CE.

The Messiah was never meant to be an object of worship. His primary mission and accomplishment is to bring world peace and to fill the world with the knowledge and awareness of one G-d.

AYFR

10-15-2007, 06:39 AM

jesus may be your messiah but he is not not the Jewish Messiah. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_messiah.html

Doesn't matter, as Christians we are still to do a Jesus directed.

Just because he wasn't considered to be the Messiah by most Jews doesn't mean he wasn't and didn't stop him from preaching to them, nor did it stop or does it stop his followers.

AYFR

10-15-2007, 06:43 AM

http://www.konig.org/messianic.htm

How Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecies

There are many Old Testament Bible prophecies that foretold and foreshadowed the life of Jesus Christ. Below, we list 12 Old Testament passages and compare them to New Testament passages. The New Testament, which records the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, was written hundreds of years after the Old Testament had been written. Much of what you'll see below was taken from a book written by Grant Jeffrey, called "Armageddon, Appointment with Destiny."

If you want to learn more about prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ, we have related pages at:
Prophecies fulfilled by Jesus
More prophecies fulfilled by Jesus
Evidence for Jesus

1. The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger
Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) says:
A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."
New Testament (Matthew 3:1-2) says:
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

2. The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem
Old Testament (Micah 5:2) says:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
New Testament (Matthew 2:1) says:
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod...

3. The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah
Old Testament (Genesis 49:10) says:
This passage talks about a ruler coming from the Tribe of Judah, one whose rule will be all-powerful:
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."
New Testament (Luke 3:23-34 and Matthew 1:1-16):
Here you'll find a list of Jesus' ancestors, going back to Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Jacob. (Jacob's 12 sons were the fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel).

4. The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a colt
Old Testament (Zechariah 9:9) says:
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
New Testament (Luke 19:35-37) says:
They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road. When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen

5. The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend
Old Testament (Psalms 41:9) says:
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
New Testament (Matthew 26:47-50) says:
While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.

6. The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver
Old Testament (Zechariah 11:12) says:
I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
New Testament (Matthew 26:14-15) says:
Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

7. The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten
Old Testament (Isaiah 50:6) says:
I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
New Testament (Matthew 26:67-68) says:
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"

8. The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies
Old Testament (Isaiah 53:5) says:
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
New Testament (Matthew 27:26) says:
Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

9. The Messiah would be silent before His accusers
Old Testament (Isaiah 53:7) says:
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
New Testament (Matthew 27:12-14) says:
When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor.

10. The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potters field
Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) says:
So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.

11. The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced
Old Testament (Psalm 22:16) says:
Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
New Testament (Luke 23:33) says:
When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left.

12. The Messiah would be crucified with thieves
Old Testament (Isaiah 53:12) says:
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
New Testament (Matthew 27:38) says:
Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.

Now what do you suppose the odds are for these twelve prophecies being fulfilled in one man's life? What are the odds of Jesus being born in Bethlehem, a little town in the midst of hundreds of towns and cities in Israel?

The prophecy of Jesus having his hands and feet pierced was written hundreds of years before the Roman Empire invented crucifixion as a form of execution.

Who would believe a King would ride into a great city on the back of an donkey? Who else would be silent and not speak a word in his own defense, after being beaten, spit upon, and having the hairs of his beard plucked from his cheeks?

The prophecy that Jesus would be born into a family from the tribe of Judah is a 12-to-1 shot because there are 12 tribes of Israel. But, as Christian scholar Grant Jeffrey figured out, for all these prophecies to come true in one man's life would be 1 chance in 10 billion times a billion. And, there are many more Bible prophecies about a Messiah that have been fulfilled by Jesus, and we have only listed 12 of those prophecies here.

Yellowdogtexan

10-15-2007, 06:55 AM

http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_refuting.htmlREFUTING CHRISTIAN "PROOF TEXTS"
While traveling through a forest, a person noticed a circle marked on a tree with an arrow shot perfectly into the center. A few yards away he noticed several more targets, each with arrows in the center. Later, he met the talented archer and he asked him, "How did you become such an expert that you always get your arrows into the center of the bull's-eye?" "It's not difficult," responded the archer, "First I shoot the arrow and then I draw the circle."

When examining Christian "proof texts" that claim to point to Jesus as the promised Messiah, we should always ask the following question. "Has an arrow been shot into a circle or has a circle been drawn around an arrow?" In other words, has the passage been mistranslated, misquoted, taken out of context or fabricated?

Here are examples of several ways that missionaries "draw a circle around the arrow" to prove their point.

Example 1: THE VERSE HAS BEEN FABRICATED AND DOES NOT EXIST IN the HEBREW SCRIPTURES

The easiest prophecy to fulfill is one you yourself have invented. The New Testament certainly bears witness to this principle, fabricating a number of "prophecies" out of thin air and attributing them to our Hebrew Scriptures.

The New Testament book of Matthew claims that Jesus was the Messiah since he lived in the city of Nazareth. The New Testament utilizes the following "proof text" to make its point: "He [Jesus] came and resided in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken through the prophets might be fulfilled. "He shall be called a Nazarene.'" (Matthew 2:23) Since a Nazarene is a resident of the city of Nazareth and this city did not exist during the time period of the Jewish Bible, it is impossible to find this quotation in the Hebrew Scriptures. It was fabricated out of thin air.

Example 2: THE VERSE IS MISTRANSLATED

An effective missionary will work with crude English retranslations of earlier Greek mistranslations, and will avoid looking at the original Hebrew.

In Romans 11:26, the Christian Bible quotes Isaiah 59:20 as saying, "The deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob," thus attempting to establish scriptural support for the Christian belief that the Messiah will take away our sins. How-ever, a careful examination of the Hebrew original reveals a powerful dilemma. Isaiah 59:20 actually says the opposite: "A redeemer will come to Zion and to those who turn from transgression in Jacob, declares the Lord." The Messiah's role is not to take away our sins; rather, when we turn away from our sins, the Messiah will then come! It is also noteworthy that many New Testaments translate this verse correctly in Isaiah and incorrectly in Romans.

Example 3: THE PASSAGE IS MISTRANSLATED AND READ OUT OF CONTEXT

In an attempt to prove the concept of the "virgin birth," the book of Matthew 1:22-23 states: "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Behold a virgin shall be with child and will bear a son and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' which translated means, G-d with us." Missionaries claim that this is the fulfillment of a prophecy recorded in Isaiah 7:14, that actually reads: "Behold, the young woman is with child and will bear a son and she will call his name Emmanuel."

There are numerous inaccuracies in the Christian translation. For example:

1) The Hebrew word, "almah -," means a young woman, not a virgin, a fact recognized by biblical scholars1;

2) The verse says "ha'almah--," "the young woman," not a young woman, specifying a particular woman that was known to Isaiah during his lifetime; and

3) The verse says "she will call his name Emmanuel," not "they shall call."

Even apart from these inaccuracies, if we read all of Isaiah Chapter 7, from which this verse is taken, it is obvious that Christians have taken this verse out of context.

This chapter speaks of a prophecy made to the Jewish King Ahaz to allay his fears of two invading kings (those of Damascus and of Samaria) who were preparing to invade Jerusalem, about 600 years before Jesus' birth. Isaiah's point is that these events will take place in the very near future (and not 600 years later, as Christianity claims). Verse 16 makes this abundantly clear: "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken."

In fact, in the very next chapter this prophecy is fulfilled with the birth of a son to Isaiah. As it says in Isaiah 8:4, "For before the child shall know to cry, "My father and my mother' the riches of Damascus and the spoils of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria." This verse entirely rules out any connection to Jesus, who would not be born for 600 years.

Example 4: VIEWED IN CONTEXT, THE VERSE COULD NOT REFER TO JESUS

In Hebrews 1:5, the New Testament quotes a verse from II Samuel 7:14, "I will be a Father to him, and he shall be a son to Me." This is said to be a prophetic reference to Jesus as the son of G-d. However, if we look at this verse from II Samuel in its entirety, the verse doesn't end with the phrase quoted in the New Testament, but continues: "When he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men." This cannot possibly fit the Christian Bible's view of a "sinless" Jesus. In addition, the verse is speaking specifically about King Solomon, as is obvious from I Chronicles 22:9-10, "His name shall be Solomon . . . he shall build a house for My name and I will be a Father to him and he will be a son to Me."

The Bible frequently refers to individuals as G-d's "son." In fact, G-d refers to the entire nation of Israel in the following manner, "Israel is My son, My firstborn." (Exodus 4:22)

Example 5: THE PASSAGE IS NOT A PROOF

Missionaries incorrectly claim that Jesus fulfilled a prophesy that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. They attempt to utilize Michah 5:2 as their proof text:

"But you Bethlehem Ephratah, though you are small among the thousands of Judah, out of you will come to Me one who will be ruler in Israel, whose goings out are from ancient time, from days of old."

This verse is not a prophesy that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. The passage simply states it has been preordained that the Messiah would be able to trace his roots back to Bethlehem. This is consistent with the Biblical statement that the Messiah will be a descendant of King David, who was from Bethlehem, as seen in I Samuel 16:18.

There is another problem with this missionary proof text. A major distinction must be made between a scripture that serves as a proof that someone is the Messiah and a scriptures that simply states a requirement of the Messiah. A proof must be something so exclusive that only one individual can fulfill it. For example: One criterion of the Messiah is that he must be Jewish. If an individual is Jewish, he has fulfilled this particular requirement; however, in and of itself, this is obviously not a proof that the individual is the Messiah since millions of individuals are Jewish and they all meet this criterion. Therefore, the claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem would not prove a thing, since thousands of children were born there.

SUMMARY

These examples demonstrate the confusion created when missionaries shoot an arrow first and then draw a circle around it. Our advice is to always take the time to examine and read passages carefully and in their entirety. If you follow this advice, the correct interpretation will be abundantly clear.

Yellowdogtexan

10-15-2007, 07:02 AM

Back to the political implications of coulter's latest stupidity. I was please to see her make the Top Ten Conservative Idiots again. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/top10/310Ann Coulter has another new book out, which means everyone has to suffer through two weeks of foul-mouthed bigotry while the mainstream media pretends that she's actually got something valid to say. Huzzah. Let's see who's on Ann's hit list this time.

Women

Despite allegedly being one, Ann thinks that women are the root of all evil. Two weeks ago she told New York Observer reporter George Gurley that, "If we took away women's right to vote, we'd never have to worry about another Democrat president." Apparently this is a "pipe dream" of hers. Presumably the pipe in question is the one she uses to smoke crack.

Foreigners

In her new book, Ann refers to Arabs as "camel jockeys." Two weeks ago she defended this charming ethnic slur to Alan Colmes, noting that "We have sure moved away from the day when we called them Krauts and Nips." Oh, how she longs for those golden and racist days of yore.

Hillary Clinton

Ann doesn't want Hillary Clinton to become president, because, as she told Sean Hannity last week, "I do not want to be fitted for a burqa." Er, that doesn't even make sense.

Jews

According to Ann, America would be a better place if everyone were Christian. And sorry Jews - that means you need to be "perfected." In case you're wondering what that means, Anne's got a train ticket here for you, just stick this yellow star on your sleeve and someone will be round to pick up your belongings later.

So there you have it. Buy Ann Coulter's new book today. Prices are dropping fast, so hurry before it's only available for one cent through some dubious conservative mail order bookstore.

Izdaari

10-15-2007, 09:24 AM

:blah Some of that may've made sense. But it was all so much tl;dr to me. As Bill O'Reilly is too fond of saying, "keep it pithy". :shrug

Yellowdogtexan

10-15-2007, 01:33 PM

Doesn't matter, as Christians we are still to do a Jesus directed.If that is the case, then why have so many Christian groups rejected this concept. http://www.adl.org/special_reports/jews4jesus/christian_responses.aspNot surprisingly, many Jews find the tactics and beliefs of Jews for Jesus offensive, and numerous Jewish leaders have condemned the group. Christians of many denominations have also voiced their disapproval of the group's theology and tactics.

The Interfaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington, an umbrella organization that includes Roman Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and Presbyterian church groups, has condemned Jews for Jesus as promoting activities "harmful to the spirit of interreligious respect and tolerance." The conference also denounces the group's "deceptive proselytizing efforts," adding that when they are practiced on "vulnerable populations" such as the young or the elderly, these efforts are "tantamount to coerced conversions."

The Board of Governors of The Long Island Council of Churches voiced similar sentiments in a statement that "noted with alarm" the "subterfuge and dishonesty" inherent in the "mixing [of] religious symbols in ways which distort their essential meaning," and named Jews for Jesus as one of the three groups about whom such behavior was alleged.

More broadly, many Christian denominations have explicitly rejected the assumption that undergirds Jews for Jesus' entire theology: that the "Old Covenant" between God and the Jewish people has been revoked and that Jews need Jesus for their salvation.

And while Jews for Jesus would convert all Jews to Christianity, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has stated that since the Second Vatican Council of the 1960s, the Christian evangelizing mission "no longer includes the wish to absorb the Jewish faith into Christianity and so end the distinctive witness of Jews to God in human history."

Many Protestant denominations have voiced similar doctrines. The United Church of Christ, a union of American Protestant churches, stated in 1987 that "God's covenant with the Jewish people has not been abrogated," and that "God has not rejected the Jewish people." A 2002 statement from The Christian Scholars Group on Christian-Jewish Relations, which includes Lutherans, Methodists and Episcopalians, stated that "In view of our conviction that Jews are in an eternal covenant with God, we renounce missionary efforts directed at converting Jews." I was pleased to see so many different Christian religions reject the concepts of these people.

AYFR

10-15-2007, 01:55 PM

If that is the case, then why have so many Christian groups rejected this concept. http://www.adl.org/special_reports/jews4jesus/christian_responses.aspI was pleased to see so many different Christian religions reject the concepts of these people.

You just listed a few groups and those groups apparently pick and choose what they will follow.

Jesus said GO and make Disciple PERIOD END OF STORY.

Yellowdogtexan

10-15-2007, 05:29 PM

I admit that I am torned between my normal desire to ignore coulter (she is seeking attention) and the fact that her statement are so outrageous that people have to call her an anti-semite. I agee with this piece in the LA Times and agree that this issue is too important to ignore. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-wiener/jews-jesus-and-republica_b_68446.htmlWhat if we didn't play Ann Coulter's game - again?

That would be a mistake, Tim Rutten argued recently in the LA Times. We need to press the issue on the candidates, and others, this time -- because, Rutten writes, "the implications of these latest remarks simply are too threatening to be allowed to stand."

Yes, it's worked for her many times before, propelling her books to the top of the best-seller list. Her readers buy her books precisely because they love the way she provokes liberals to screaming outrage. That's why in the past, when asked about our enemies in the Middle East, she said "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity"; that's why she insulted the 9-11widows.

But this time, Rutten argues, it's different. That's because Coulter's argument - that Christianity "perfects" Judaism, and that Jews need "perfecting" -- is the major theological underpinning of anti-Semitism (along with the notion to that the Jews killed Jesus). The Catholic church, and most Protestant denominations, have explicitly broken with that claim. The Republican candidates ought to do the same thing.

"It's a scandal that in this pluralist nation it falls to the voices of organized Jewry to make this case," Rutten writes, "because it is a case whose outcome is of the greatest consequence to us all. For too long we've pretended that the brutal political rhetoric that now characterizes our partisan politics can be quarantined, that it won't inevitably leach over into every other aspect of our lives."

So it would be good to ask Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney and their rivals: Ann Coulter is a best-selling Republican pundit; do you agree with her that the ideal America is a Christian America?
One of the key concepts of both Israel and the ADL is that we will never let the Holocaust happen again. This means that it is important to condemn coulter for the anti-semite that she is.

AYFR

10-15-2007, 05:31 PM

BTW Ann never said that WE need to perfect Jews she said COULTER: No, we think — we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say.

Transcript here
http://ianschwartz.com/2007/10/11/vi...ng-christians/

Yellowdogtexan

10-15-2007, 06:29 PM

BTW Ann never said that WE need to perfect Jews she said COULTER: No, we think — we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say.Your link does not work but it is not necessary. If you look on this thread, you can see the full clip of coulter's statements and it is clear that she is being anti-semtic. Deutch called her on it and she did not back down and embraced the claim that the world would be a better place if there were no Jews.

AYFR

10-15-2007, 06:45 PM

She is not being anti-semitic.

Even Medved (a practicing Jew) disagrees with that

Try this link

http://ianschwartz.com/index.php?s=coulter

Yellowdogtexan

10-15-2007, 07:31 PM

AYFR

10-15-2007, 08:07 PM

AYFR

10-15-2007, 08:24 PM

Medved was and remains an idiot. You may like the guy but I think that he is both a poor writer and not very bright. We can rehash the silliness on medved and the defense of slavery but you were looking very silly at the end of that thread.

The ADL and the AJC are compose of practicing jews and the members of each such organization are far more knowledgeable on this issue compare to an idiot like medved. I have already posted the ADL and AJC comments on coulter's anti-semetic remarks and will be glad to repost these comments if you want.

Not to mention I wasn't saying anything about her being anti-semitic or not, I addressed the FACT that she did not say that we needed ot perfect Jews.

I had thought you better than an automaton. You just regurgitate what the move-on crowd says. You are clearly biased attacking only Reps and defending all Dems.

When you start thinking on you own again let me know.

Saguaro

10-15-2007, 08:27 PM

I wish someone would convert Coulter into being human

Kurtz

10-15-2007, 08:29 PM

I wish someone would convert Coulter into being human

:paclap :paclap

Kurtz

10-15-2007, 08:30 PM

Not to mention I wasn't saying anything about her being anti-semitic or not, I addressed the FACT that she did not say that we needed ot perfect Jews.

I had thought you better than an automaton. You just regurgitate what the move-on crowd says. You are clearly biased attacking only Reps and defending all Dems.

When you start thinking on you own again let me know.

Uh oh, I saw someone else post that same statement just this mornin'. :lol

Yellowdogtexan

10-16-2007, 12:29 AM

BTW Ann never said that WE need to perfect Jews she said COULTER: No, we think — we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say.You seem to have a severe defect in your ability to listen to and comprehend converstations and/or to read transcripts. The rush tapes on the phony solider comment and the comparison of a votevet.org veteran to a sucide bomber are clear examples of this and based on your comments on these threads I decided that you were either very stupid or very partisan (the jury is still out on this for me but I am leaning toward your playing moronic games in order to try to change what was said on these tapes and transcripts). As noted on the other threads, I have lost all respect for you and quite frankly do not trust or care about what you think you heard or read on these transcripts. You have done nothing to restore my respect. Maybe your are that stupid in which case, I really do not care what you think you heard or you are continuing your silly game and again I simply do not care what you claim to have heard.

coulter described her perfect world which has no Jews in it. The transcript speaks for itsself as do the clips from the show and your attempt to change the meaning of coulter's comments is just as stupid here as it was on the rush threads.

Trueblue

10-16-2007, 05:15 AM

One Jewish person saying that Coulter's remarks were not anti-Semitic doesn't make it so.

You just regurgitate what the move-on crowd says.

Are you just regurgitating what Medved says? Or are you capable of thinking for yourself, and you just happen to agree with him? I often agree with Move-On, but that doesn't mean that I am just parroting them. They just share some of the same philosophy.

AYFR

10-16-2007, 05:36 AM

You seem to have a severe defect in your ability to listen to and comprehend converstations and/or to read transcripts. The rush tapes on the phony solider comment and the comparison of a votevet.org veteran to a sucide bomber are clear examples of this and based on your comments on these threads I decided that you were either very stupid or very partisan (the jury is still out on this for me but I am leaning toward your playing moronic games in order to try to change what was said on these tapes and transcripts). As noted on the other threads, I have lost all respect for you and quite frankly do not trust or care about what you think you heard or read on these transcripts. You have done nothing to restore my respect. Maybe your are that stupid in which case, I really do not care what you think you heard or you are continuing your silly game and again I simply do not care what you claim to have heard.

coulter described her perfect world which has no Jews in it. The transcript speaks for itsself as do the clips from the show and your attempt to change the meaning of coulter's comments is just as stupid here as it was on the rush threads.
Because you can't prove me wrong so you insult me and try and degrade me.
That's fine the transcript plainly shows that she DID NOT say that WE need to perfect Jews as you claim.

Pssst I never said that she did not say Jews need perfecting.

On that note are you saying that Jews are perfect? To my understanding (which seems greater than yours) no one is perfect and we ALL nee perfecting.

One Jewish person saying that Coulter's remarks were not anti-Semitic doesn't make it so.

Are you just regurgitating what Medved says? Or are you capable of thinking for yourself, and you just happen to agree with him? I often agree with Move-On, but that doesn't mean that I am just parroting them. They just share some of the same philosophy.

Wasn't talking to you now was I.

You keep defending YDT everytime. I know that you think for yourself.

As for me I happen to agree with Medved on a lot but not on all issues. As for me regurgitating what he says, hardly, beside how would you know unless you listen to him. I do listen but not on a regular basis, I happen to like music when I drive not talk radio.

YDT does more that just agree with move-on, it goes farther than that. You have attacked both Dems and Reps, the little r or d beside a persons name doesn't make you decision for you. Him it does.

AYFR

10-16-2007, 05:42 AM

Ann Coulter is NOT an Anti-Semite

I must have gotten thirty emails since yesterday morning that said "are you going to blast Ann Coulter?" or "how come you aren't talking about what Ann Coulter said?" Usually I am the first to rant about anti-Semitic statements, but I was going to pass on this story because I don't think she is an anti-Semite or that her statement is anti-Semitic.

Firstly for those of you who were vacationing on the moon yesterday, Ann Coulter appeared on Donny Deutsch's show on CNBC (sorry I have a friend that worked for his father and hence he will always be known as Donny to me). On the show she said some pretty controversial things the one that is getting the most attention is that in order to become perfect, Jews have to become Christians.

Some people say that her comment was anti-Semitic---its not. Ms Coulter's comments had nothing to do with Jews, and everything to do with selling books. Every time she come out with a new book she manages to say something controversial to piss of one group and grab the headlines. When her last book came out she made a comment that the 9/11 widow were enjoying all of the attention they were receiving, it was almost as if they were enjoying their spouses death.

Even without the "marketing" angle she said nothing anti-Semitic. Let me put it this way, if Ms Coulter thought that Judaism was the way to perfection, she would convert. Or to put it another way, and I don't mean anything disparagingly about what I am going to say, I think that Christians have it wrong---let face it, if I thought they had it right I would be going to Church on Sunday instead of Shul on Saturday. On the other hand I also belive that Judaism and Christianity are both paths to the same end. Ms Coulter didn't say that Jews think they have a monopoly on God like Bishop Tutu, She only said that she believes her religion is the right one. Good for her ! Because if all Jews and all Christians believed that their faith was the correct one, and followed its teaching to a "t" then this world would be a MUCH better place.

Folks Ann Coulter is a very smart woman. With this comment she will be on all of the news shows----free marketing. As I said to a friend last night, I refuse to fall for a cheap PR trick, unless I have an exclusive. Please don't get angry--because her approach has been working. She sells lots of books and she doesn't hate Jews----she loves residuals.
http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2007/10/is-ann-coulter.html
http://www.israelforum.com/blog_article.php?aid=1030224 back up link
Another here
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/10/nice_try_media.html

And here
Apparently Deutsch failed Religion 101. For the most part, all religions have beliefs that exclude others. Muslim law puts the lowest Muslim in a higher social and theological strata than even the most righteous non-Muslim. Christians believe the sole path to salvation is through Jesus. Jews exclude pagans, atheists and polytheists from the World to Come.

Deutsch is offended because Colter believes Jews need to be "perfected" and that, even though Jews will get to Heaven, they won't get there as fast or as painlessly as Christians.
I don't like Ann Coulter, but this whole brouhaha says far more about Deutsch's ignorance of Judaism and it's theology than it does about Coulter and her professed beliefs.

Ann Coulter is not antisemitic. Donny Deutsch, however, is ignorant of Jewish theology and law, and his grasp of general religious theory is quite weak. Coulter believes Jews get to Heaven. For a Christian, this an enlightened view. Can you imagine the average Christian professing this 100 years ago? 500?

If you're going to discuss religion in public, you owe it to yourself and everyone else to actually know what you're talking about. Perhaps MSNBC's Deutsch could process that.
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/10/is-ann-coulter-.html

Trueblue

10-16-2007, 05:43 AM

I'm just defending reason-and to keep using the "move-on crowd" as a pejorative bothers me. It's what they say on the radio, to put down liberals and Democrats.

AYFR

10-16-2007, 06:18 AM

I wouldn't know about that, what I do know is that I go to move-on and othe Liberal sites and he just parrots them.

Yellowdogtexan

10-16-2007, 08:12 AM

Because you can't prove me wrong so you insult me and try and degrade me.For me to want to try to prove you wrong, (a) I would have to care about your opinion and (b) you would actually have to be making an intelligent point. Both of these conditions were not satisfied.

As I have informed you earlier, I have no respect for your opinions. You have have proved to be a very stupid person or you are playing some passive aggressive word games on this and the rush threads. In either case, as I have stated earlier, I have no respect for your opinions and do not consider you to be very bright. As to your point about coulter, it is not clear what your point is and again I do not care. I have listened to and watched the clips and know what coulter says.

As for your clips about Coulter not being an anti-semite, I again heard what coulter said and the opinion of other idiots really does not matter. I remind you that two of the more important Jewish organizations, the ADL and the AJC have both come down on coulter being a disgusting human being and the opinions of these organizations trumps the silly and ill-informed opinions of idiots like you and the people you quoted.

As for proving you wrong, you have admitted that what coulter said was wrong Pssst I never said that she did not say Jews need perfecting.Your are trying to play some sort of stupid word game here and it does not work because (a) you are not bright enough to make such an argument and (b) I honestly can not tell what the point you are trying to make (again if you make such a stupid argument that no one understands the point you are making, you should give it up).

You are not as bright as you think you are. For an idiot like you to accuse me of just repeating talking points from move.on is really silly given your complete ignorance and stupidity on this thread and the rush threads.

Izdaari

10-16-2007, 09:23 AM

For me to want to try to prove you wrong, (a) I would have to care about your opinion and (b) you would actually have to be making an intelligent point. Both of these conditions were not satisfied.

As I have informed you earlier, I have no respect for your opinions. You have have proved to be a very stupid person or you are playing some passive aggressive word games on this and the rush threads. In either case, as I have stated earlier, I have no respect for your opinions and do not consider you to be very bright. As to your point about coulter, it is not clear what your point is and again I do not care. I have listened to and watched the clips and know what coulter says.

As for your clips about Coulter not being an anti-semite, I again heard what coulter said and the opinion of other idiots really does not matter. I remind you that two of the more important Jewish organizations, the ADL and the AJC have both come down on coulter being a disgusting human being and the opinions of these organizations trumps the silly and ill-informed opinions of idiots like you and the people you quoted.

As for proving you wrong, you have admitted that what coulter said was wrong Your are trying to play some sort of stupid word game here and it does not work because (a) you are not bright enough to make such an argument and (b) I honestly can not tell what the point you are trying to make (again if you make such a stupid argument that no one understands the point you are making, you should give it up).

You are not as bright as you think you are. For an idiot like you to accuse me of just repeating talking points from move.on is really silly given your complete ignorance and stupidity on this thread and the rush threads.
Resorting to insulting the intelligence of your opponent (note, opponent, not enemy) is really weak, and far below what should be the standard of civil discourse here.

Yellowdogtexan

10-16-2007, 10:54 AM

Resorting to insulting the intelligence of your opponent (note, opponent, not enemy) is really weak, and far below what should be the standard of civil discourse here.Not really. This particular poster has a reading comprehension issue or is playing some passive aggressive word games on thread about rush's phony solider and sucide bomber comments and now with respect to the anti-semetic remarks from ann coulter.

If The Reverend disagrees with my assessment, then prove me wrong. Post something intelligent or thoughtful and prove me wrong. I would be glad to see this poster try this instead of making silly and wrong claims such as rush never called veterans who disagree with the war in Iraq phony soliders or compared a votevet.org vet to a sucide bomber (even though that particular veteran and war hero was injured by a sucide bomber).

Now The Reverenad wants to play some sort of willy word game as to what coulter said. I have watched the clips of the show and read the transcripts. It is clear that coulter wants a world with no Jews and the jews need to perfected by being forced to convert to christianity. Such statements are clear and I simply do not feel like playing word games with someone who I do not consider to be very bright and who is not making a logical point or argument.

AYFR

10-16-2007, 01:51 PM

For me to want to try to prove you wrong, (a) I would have to care about your opinion and (b) you would actually have to be making an intelligent point. Both of these conditions were not satisfied.

As I have informed you earlier, I have no respect for your opinions. You have have proved to be a very stupid person or you are playing some passive aggressive word games on this and the rush threads. In either case, as I have stated earlier, I have no respect for your opinions and do not consider you to be very bright. As to your point about coulter, it is not clear what your point is and again I do not care. I have listened to and watched the clips and know what coulter says.

As for your clips about Coulter not being an anti-semite, I again heard what coulter said and the opinion of other idiots really does not matter. I remind you that two of the more important Jewish organizations, the ADL and the AJC have both come down on coulter being a disgusting human being and the opinions of these organizations trumps the silly and ill-informed opinions of idiots like you and the people you quoted.

As for proving you wrong, you have admitted that what coulter said was wrong Your are trying to play some sort of stupid word game here and it does not work because (a) you are not bright enough to make such an argument and (b) I honestly can not tell what the point you are trying to make (again if you make such a stupid argument that no one understands the point you are making, you should give it up).

You are not as bright as you think you are. For an idiot like you to accuse me of just repeating talking points from move.on is really silly given your complete ignorance and stupidity on this thread and the rush threads.
Yet you keep responding to me, funny how it is when someone disagrees with you they are considered an idiot. Sounds Rushlike to me.
I made and proved my points and you can not disprove them.

Also I never said that what Coulter said was right, AGAIN since you can't read I said that she did not say that WE need po perfect the Jews
Resorting to insulting the intelligence of your opponent (note, opponent, not enemy) is really weak, and far below what should be the standard of civil discourse here.
He can't help it, that is the only way he can have dialog.

Kurtz

10-16-2007, 02:08 PM

I'm just defending reason-and to keep using the "move-on crowd" as a pejorative bothers me. It's what they say on the radio, to put down liberals and Democrats.

Ya mean like 'Polly want a cracker' type remarks? :lol

Maybe it's rote learnin'?

Or maybe if they repeat a lie often enough...

I still believe the national deficit is
critical thought on the part of some.

TB, keep up the good work.
:cheers

AYFR

10-16-2007, 06:39 PM

Not really. This particular poster has a reading comprehension issue or is playing some passive aggressive word games on thread about rush's phony solider and sucide bomber comments and now with respect to the anti-semetic remarks from ann coulter.

If The Reverend disagrees with my assessment, then prove me wrong. Post something intelligent or thoughtful and prove me wrong. I would be glad to see this poster try this instead of making silly and wrong claims such as rush never called veterans who disagree with the war in Iraq phony soliders or compared a votevet.org vet to a sucide bomber (even though that particular veteran and war hero was injured by a sucide bomber).

Now The Reverenad wants to play some sort of willy word game as to what coulter said. I have watched the clips of the show and read the transcripts. It is clear that coulter wants a world with no Jews and the jews need to perfected by being forced to convert to christianity. Such statements are clear and I simply do not feel like playing word games with someone who I do not consider to be very bright and who is not making a logical point or argument.
Show me where she said they need to be forced into Christianity.

You call he an anti-semite and when someone doesn't agree with you theya re then considered and idiot.

You only see one side of and issue and REFUSE to look at other sides.
It is we either agree with you are suddenly we are all stupid. Thiat is a narrow-minded way of thinking.

You have an ego problem and you need it stroked constantly.

Which is weird because you also have self-esteem issues and feel the need to degrade people that differ with you.

You need to take the example of True Blue, now SHE listens to other sides and is willing to admit when she is wrong. She doesn't base her case on party lines and is willing to attack her one party when they do something wrong.
She is a true free thinker and is very open-minded

Wabash

10-17-2007, 03:44 PM

Wednesday, October 17, 2007 12:28 PM

By: Phil Brennan and Jim Meyers

An angry Ann Coulter has responded to critics who lambasted her for remarking that Jews would be “perfected” if they would embrace Christianity, telling Newsmax she has been misquoted and pointing to established Catholic doctrine.

Last week the conservative pundit told CNBC’s Donnie Deutsch: “We just want Jews to be perfected, as they say … Christians believe the Old Testament (Jews) don’t believe our testament.”

Asked by Deutsch if she believed everyone should be Christian, Coulter twice replied “Yes.”

Ira Forman, executive director of the National Jewish Democratic Council, was quick to condemn her comments, calling them “hate speech” and saying:

“How does someone who says that Judaism should be thrown out, that Jews should be ‘perfected’ and that America would be better off were everyone Christian continue to receive a megaphone and platform from the news networks? When will the media say ‘enough is enough’?”

Coulter responded :

"Let's rewrite the NJDC statement to refer to what I actually said: 'How does someone who says it would be better if everyone were a Christian or practicing Jew continue to receive a megaphone and platform from the news networks? When will the media say ‘enough is enough’?

"Who's engaging in hate speech now?" she asked.

Chris Korzen, executive director of Catholics United, also criticized Coulter, saying he was "dumbfounded" by her remarks.

He charged: "For her to suggest somehow we'd all be better off if we were all Christian is not only insulting to millions of people who aren't Christian, its completely un-American."

Ann: "That's interesting. Korzen shills for the pro-abortion Democrats and the anti-war left. He used the Catholic label to oppose the nomination of John Bolton to be ambassador to the United Nations. He sneered at this year's National Catholic Prayer Breakfast at which President Bush spoke, saying: 'Let's be honest, this event would be more accurately labeled the 'Republican Catholic Strategy Breakfast.'

“He was quoted in the Christian Science Monitor of August 27, 2007, defending pro-abortion Democrat politicians: 'There are those who say that Catholics should be robots. There's a formula, and if we don't follow that formula, we shouldn't present ourselves for communion on Sunday morning. That's an absolute misuse of Catholic teaching,' he said, referring to the call of several Catholic bishops in the 2004 campaign to deny communion to Senator Kerry and other Catholic politicians who did not vote in line with Vatican teachings on abortion.

“So Korzen believes Catholics should not be 'robots' when it comes to opposing abortion. He believes Catholics should be robots in opposing the teachings of the New Testament - as clearly stated in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

“The Catholic Encyclopedia entry on the New Testament says this: 'Specifically Christian Doctrines: Other doctrines, specifically Christian, are not added on to Judaism to develop, but rather to supersede it.

"In reality, between the New and Old Testaments there is a direct but not revolutionary succession as a superficial observer might be inclined to believe; just as in living beings, the imperfect state of yesterday must give way before the perfection of today although the one has normally prepared the other.

“‘If the mystery of the Trinity and the spiritual character of the Messianic Kingdom are ranked among the peculiarly Christian dogmas, it is because the Old Testament was of itself insufficient to establish the doctrine of the New Testament on this subject; and still more because, at the time of Jesus, the opinions current among the Jews went decidedly in the opposite direction.'

“I think most Catholics would more interested in the words of the famous Catholic priest, Fr. Richard John Neuhaus.”

Coulter quotes him as saying: “Monday, July 9, 2007 … The Roman Missal modified by Pope Paul VI in 1969, and put into effect in 1970, has this formulation: ‘Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of His name and in faithfulness to his covenant.’

“The following prayer is this: ‘Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption.’

“Of course some Jews may be offended at the suggestion that the fullness of redemption is found in Jesus Christ, but their problem is with Christianity as such.”

Said Ann: "Korzen speaks for Catholics like Barry Lynn speaks for Christians or Gloria Steinem speaks for women - or I speak for Muslims."
http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/Coulter_Jewish_reply/2007/10/17/41664.html?s=al&promo_code=3B91-1

The Q

10-17-2007, 04:38 PM

Oh shut up, Ann.

ADQ

Trueblue

10-17-2007, 04:46 PM

An angry Ann Coulter

That's redundant....

Viki

10-17-2007, 06:24 PM

I don't have a horse in this race, but I do despise intellectual dishonesty so I am FORCED ... kicking and screaming :)... to mention that all of Jesus' early followers were Jewish. In fact, this was so true that even Jesus himself did not initially see that his mission was a call to the world; a foreign WOMAN had to talk him into that ...

Moreover, after Jesus' death, for DECADES, followers of Jesus (who called themselves "People of the Way), continued to worship and participate as faithful Jews. It wasn't until the Hebrew people, who did not follow Jesus, tossed their fellow Jews out of worship, that Jewish Christians went their own way.

So, yes, there was an historical gap, but to maintain there was never such a thing (or the corollary that there could never be such a thing) as a faithful Jewish Christian is to be ignorant of history, at the very least.

AYFR

10-17-2007, 06:28 PM

You can't explain anything to YDT so don't even try.

Yellowdogtexan

10-17-2007, 11:23 PM

So, yes, there was an historical gap, but to maintain there was never such a thing (or the corollary that there could never be such a thing) as a faithful Jewish Christian is to be ignorant of history, at the very least.The earlier followers of christ ceased to be Jewish when they started believing in things that were inconsitent with the Jewish faith such as three god acting as one and that one needs a mediator in order to find salvation. Jewish law is clear on this and in fact the Israeli supreme court has ruled that Jew who convert to jews for jesus are no longer Jewish under Jewish law and therefore are not entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship.

Here is a good websiter on the lies used by the cult, jews for jesus. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.htmlThe fact remains that, regardless of superficial attempts to sound Jewish, the term "Hebrew Christian," or "Jew for Jesus," is an oxymoron and a theological contradiction.

So-called "Hebrew Christians" argue that a person who is born Jewish can never lose his birthright or heritage. However, the Bible teaches that your beliefs do influence your Jewish status and that a person who was born a Jew can at some point temporarily cease to be called a Jew.
In the Book of Kings, Elijah the prophet is sent to rebuke those Jews who were worshiping a foreign god called Baal. In I Kings 18:21, Elijah says to them, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is G-d, follow Him: but if Baal, follow him." In other words, you are either a Jew or a worshiper of Baal; you can't be both. The story concludes with the Jews renouncing their idolatrous ways and returning to Judaism.

From this, we derive an important lesson. A Jew who follows another religion is Jewish only to the point that he retains a spiritual obligation to repent and to return to Judaism. However, as long as his beliefs are idolatrous and foreign to Judaism, he cannot call himself a Jew. (It is important to note that a non-practicing Jew is different from a Jew who has chosen to follow a foreign path.)

The Torah teaches that Jews and non-Jews are given different paths to reach G-d. A Jew is obligated to follow the Torah, while a non-Jew must observe the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah.3 One group isn't better than the other, merely different. Therefore, certain beliefs and practices, like eating pork, are permissible for non-Jews but not for Jews. Similarly, the majority of Christian beliefs concerning G-d, salvation and the Messiah do not violate the Noahide covenant for non-Jews, but are absolutely forbidden for Jews. That is why the term "Messianic Jew," "Hebrew Christian," or "Jew for Jesus," is a contradiction.....

One thing upon which the entire Jewish community and several Christian denominations agree is that "Hebrew Christian" movements are not a part of Judaism. To be a "Jew for Jesus" is as absurd as being a "Christian for Buddha" and as ridiculous as "kosher pork;" it is an obvious contradiction. To paraphrase Elijah, if you are a follower of Jesus, call yourself a Christian. If you are a Jew, practice Judaism. Don't deceive yourself; you can't be both.

In reality, Judaism is a most beautiful and spiritually fulfilling path to serving G-d with all your heart, soul and might.

The Book of Proverbs 3:17-18 describes the Torah in these words, "Its ways are ways of pleasantness, and its paths are peace. It is a tree of life to those who lay hold of it." The best defense against the growing onslaught of missionary propaganda is a deep commitment to Judaism and a thorough understanding of the missionary arguments and the relevant Jewish responses.

Viki

10-18-2007, 04:41 AM

The earlier followers of christ ceased to be Jewish when they started believing in things that were inconsitent with the Jewish faith such as three god acting as one and that one needs a mediator in order to find salvation.
Here is a good websiter on the lies used by the cult, jews for jesus. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.html

Yellowdog, you may want that to be true, but historically it simply isn't.
Jewish Christians lived and worshipped beside those who weren't for decades, maintaining a single identity.

And, listen, I'm extremely respectful of the Hebrew faith - I work with Rabbinic colleagues, and not ONE of them would ever, ever, ever accuse me (or Christians in general) of worshipping THREE gods, so please ... cut it out. The Hebrew, Christian, and Islamic faith are the three great monotheistic religions, saying otherwise doesn't make it so.

If you would like a cogent explanation of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity I'd be glad to provide it.

Ringo

10-18-2007, 08:00 AM

Jesus Fuckin' Christ, are you tellin' me you don't like YDT coz he's a Jew? :eek

Don't answer that, I think I'll go for a walk now or take a shower. :roll

Didn't read much in school did ya Kurtz? She is asking for MUTUAL RESPECT, which isn't good enough for Liberals! I too believe in Christ, I also believe in the Father, so I must be a cross of Jew-Christian, OR a very normal American, with which you have little in common?:devil

Yellowdogtexan

10-18-2007, 08:35 AM

Yellowdog, you may want that to be true, but historically it simply isn't.
Jewish Christians lived and worshipped beside those who weren't for decades, maintaining a single identity..You are the one who is WRONG. Read the materials posted. When you cease worshiping the G-d and follow a different religion, be it Baal or jesus, then under Jewish law and tradition, you are not longer a jew. Yes the early christian followers lived in the same communities as the Jewish people, but that did not mean that they were still consider jewish once they decided to abandon Judaism and follow a different path. There were also the followers of other religions living in the region including Jews who left Judaism to follow Baal (why not, ritual sex sounds a great deal more appealing than fasting and prayer) but these people were not considered Jewish under Jewish law. This concept has continued to present day where the Israeli supreme court has ruled that jews for jesus converts are not Jews under Jewish law and therefore are not entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship

Ask your rabbinic friend what he thinks about Jews for Jesus. Most rabbis have a very strong reaction to this group.

Yellowdogtexan

10-18-2007, 08:44 AM

And, listen, I'm extremely respectful of the Hebrew faith - I work with Rabbinic colleagues, and not ONE of them would ever, ever, ever accuse me (or Christians in general) of worshipping THREE gods, so please ... cut it out. The Hebrew, Christian, and Islamic faith are the three great monotheistic religions, saying otherwise doesn't make it so.

If you would like a cogent explanation of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity I'd be glad to provide it.The concept of the trinity has never made sense to me which is one reason why Judaism was appealing. The process of conversion involves taking a several month long course and one of the items covered was the differences between the two religions including the concept to the trinity. Again this is from the same source as above. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.htmlAs stated earlier, Judaism maintains that certain beliefs may be permissible for non-Jews, but not for Jews. The Christian theology concerning G-d is one example of a belief that is absolutely forbidden to Jews according to the Hebrew Bible, as the following biblical sources demonstrate:

1) The commandment to believe in G-d's absolute Oneness was given specifically to the children of Israel (the Jewish people), as is stated in the Shema, Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear O Israel, The Lord our G-d, the Lord is One." The concept expressed in this verse not only refutes the plurality of gods, but also asserts that G-d is the only true existence. Biblically, G-d is not only infinite, but He transcends time, space and matter. G-d has no beginning and no end, as it says in Isaiah 44:6, "I am the first and I am the last and besides Me there is no other." While Judaism believes that G-d manifests Himself to His creation (humanity) in many ways, (i.e. as a judge or a protector) G-d's essence itself is indivisible and therefore without any possibility of distinction. Something that transcends both time and space cannot be described as consisting of three different aspects. The moment we attribute any such distinctions to G-d's essence, we negate His absolute Oneness and unity.6

The following verses from the Hebrew Bible, when correctly translated, further substantiate this fundamental and crucial Jewish belief in the Oneness of G-d: "See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me" (Deuteronomy 32:39) and "There is nothing else besides G-d" (Deuteronomy 4:35).

2) Jews are also forbidden to envision that G-d has "any likeness of anything." Deuteronomy 4:15-19 and Deuteronomy 5:8-9 are only some of the many biblical references prohibiting Jews from believing that G-d dwells in bodily form, as claimed in the New Testament.7

3) The prohibition against a mediator is found in the Second Commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:3) Therefore, the New Testament statement in John 14:6, that "No one comes to the Father, but through Me [Jesus]" is not acceptable to Jews. Even if he or she considers something to be a part of G-d, a Jew is not permitted to use it as a mediator. The Torah teaches that each person is capable of connecting with G-d directly.

These Christian beliefs, which have their roots in ancient paganism, have been the basis for the Jewish rejection of Christianity -- even on pain of death -- for the last 2,000 years. Historically, Jews have always understood that conversion would mean severing their relationship with G-d as described in the Torah.Until my kids left for school, I said the following prayer in Hebrew and english to my children every night. "Hear O Israel, The Lord our G-d, the Lord is One." You are welcome to believe in the trinity but understand that this is not a belief that is not accepted in Judaism and people who adopt such belief are not considered Jews under Jewish law and tradition

Viki

10-18-2007, 08:48 AM

You are the one who is WRONG. Read the materials posted. When you cease worshiping the G-d and follow a different religion, be it Baal or jesus, then under Jewish law and tradition, you are not longer a jew. Yes the early christian followers lived in the same communities as the Jewish people, but that did not mean that they were still consider jewish once they decided to abandon Judaism and follow a different path. There were also the followers of other religions living in the region including Jews who left Judaism to follow Baal (why not, ritual sex sounds a great deal more appealing than fasting and prayer) but these people were not considered Jewish under Jewish law. This concept has continued to present day where the Israeli supreme court has ruled that jews for jesus converts are not Jews under Jewish law and therefore are not entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship

Ask your rabbinic friend what he thinks about Jews for Jesus. Most rabbis have a very strong reaction to this group.

Sorry, friend, it IS you who are wrong. The Jewish Christians WERE considered REAL Jews for decades ... read early Christian history and accounts of the early interactions between these earliest followers and you'll catch up ... but I won't keep repeating it.

On another issue you raise, Christians do not rightly WORSHIP Jesus, doctrinally they believe that Jesus was the earthly incarnation of the heart and mind of God, more purely than anyone else who has ever lived.

The Johannine texts push that early Christian doctrine, and the 4th and 5th century creeds take it even further, by saying that Jesus was so the mind of God that he might as well be considered God on earth, and it's from those battles that the doctrine of preexistence emerges.

In the earliest gospel, the gospel of Mark, it's clear that that community took an adoptionist approach, believing that God was so pleased with Jesus that s/he adopted Jesus as "his son."

In any event, even in the Johnannine texts and the creeds, it's clear that God is Yahweh, the same God, but that we experience that same God in three aspects, for which today we have various terms: Father/Son/Holy Spirit, Creater/Redeemer/Sustainer etc...all of which struggle to the confession that God is three in ONE. While we might wrestle with exactly what this means, the beauty of the doctrine is that even within Unity there is diversity and the foretaste of community, to which people of all faiths are called.

Additionally Hebrew scripture also has other names for God, namely Sophia, the feminine aspect of God, from which early Christians derived much of their logos/Jesus theology.

Yellowdogtexan

10-18-2007, 10:14 AM

Sorry, friend, it IS you who are wrong. The Jewish Christians WERE considered REAL Jews for decades ... read early Christian history and accounts of the early interactions between these earliest followers and you'll catch up ... but I won't keep repeating it..
The early jewish christians may have considered themselves Jews but so do the Jews for Jesus converts and in both cases these opnions are false. You are relying on early accounts of so-called early jewish christians that they consider themselves Jewish but you are ignoring than under Jewish law and tradition these people cease being Jews when they elected to follow a different path. Just as Judaism does not accept the new testament as part of our holy works, the writings and accounts of these early christians as to their opinion of their status are meaningless.

I keep bringing up the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court for a reason. The jews for jesus people tried to claim Israeli citizenship for their converts and the Israeli courts rejected this concept based on the same priniciples outlined above which have been part of Jewish law even before the rise on christianity. There is something nice about having a Torah and related works that have not changed for thousands of years (the process and care taken by the special rabbis in the care of Torahs is really amazing). People of jewish ancestary who elected to follow jesus were not consider Jews back in the early days of the christian religion by Judaism and the same principles continue to this day. The accounts of these early christians is just meaningful to me as the claims of the jews for jesus converts was to the Israeli Supreme Court.