Do Jews need Perfecting?

[Yellowdogtexan]

I have seen this in real life and now I am seeing this concept floated in the media. Some christians think that they can hurry the return of Jesus by converting Jews to christianity and now Ann the man Coulter is floating this concept. http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003657196colum nist/author Ann Coulter suggested that the U.S. would be a better place if there weren't any Jewish people and that they had "perfected" themselves into -- Christians.

It led Deutsch to suggest that surely he couldn't mean that, and when she insisted she did, he said this sounded "anti-Semitic."

Asked by Deutsch regarding whether she wanted to be like "the head of Iran" and "wipe Israel off the Earth," Coulter stated: "No, we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say. ... That's what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament."I am happy with my faith and do not need any perfecting and espicially if that would make Coulter happy.

[The Q]

I heard an interesting show on NPR the other day about how the number of Evangelicals going to Israel is rapidly increasing. The Israeli official who was interviewed said that they seem to be friendly and nice, but after talking with any of them for ten minutes, their real agenda comes out: they want all the jews to convert after jesus comes back. :roll

ADQ

[Kurtz]

I have seen this in real life and now I am seeing this concept floated in the media. Some christians think that they can hurry the return of Jesus by converting Jews to christianity and now Ann the man Coulter is floating this concept. http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003657196I am happy with my faith and do not need any perfecting and espicially if that would make Coulter happy.

Oh, you were born right the first time! :lol

btw, I know YDT is a convert to Judaism,
the above remark is my nasty ass sarcasm.

That belief that Christians can expedite the return of Christ
is also exemplified by bush's desire to blow up the world. :mad

[Kurtz]

I heard an interesting show on NPR the other day about how the number of Evangelicals going to Israel is rapidly increasing. The Israeli official who was interviewed said that they seem to be friendly and nice, but after talking with any of them for ten minutes, their real agenda comes out: they want all the jews to convert after jesus comes back. :roll

ADQ

My aunt did that, migrated to Israel, assumed citizenship and then tried to convert the Jews.
Ya gotta know my aunt is a Republican too.

[Saguaro]

"Seik Heil " Coulter

[bluedog]

I have seen this in real life and now I am seeing this concept floated in the media. Some christians think that they can hurry the return of Jesus by converting Jews to christianity and now Ann the man Coulter is floating this concept. http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003657196I am happy with my faith and do not need any perfecting and espicially if that would make Coulter happy.

Many are confused...that nation which rests in the middle that claims to be the Israel of the Bible...is worth protecting, not because it is some how the chosen people of God....which it is not, for they were lost just as were those that Noah left behind, when they refused to once again listen to God and his prophets...the only reason to protect them is due to the fact they are a democratic light right in the middle of the dark theological despotism of fundamental Islam and its concept of forced faith at the point of sword. BD

[Kurtz]

Many are confused...that nation which rests in the middle that claims to be the Israel of the Bible...is worth protecting, not because it is some how the chosen people of God....which it is not, for they were lost just as were those that Noah left behind, when they refused to once again listen to God and his prophets...the only reason to protect them is due to the fact they are a democratic light right in the middle of the dark theological despotism of fundamental Islam and its concept of forced faith at the point of sword. BD

:clap :clap :clap

BEAMER, nice post, man!!

[Yellowdogtexan]

I really do not care if you consider Jews lost or not. I made my decision to convert a long time ago and it was the right decision for my family for a host of reasons. However such decision has meant that we are in a minority and that there are people who hate Jews and others who want to convert us to christianity for their own reason.

I do care about idiots who are convinced that they can speed up the return of your messiah by converting Jews to christianity. Those groups are out there and operate under different names. Again, my friend's daughter was told by a group of club members that she was being selfish in that her refusal to convert to christianity was delaying the return of Jesus and the rapture. My kids have run into these people at school but luckily they were able to ignored these groups easily because the administration at their school would not stand for any silliness.

The supporters of Israel are well aware that a number of right wing religious groups support the existence of Israel because a Jewish state in the mid-East is part of what these groups think is necessary to bring about the second coming of Jesus. Israel is not proud and has accepted any and all help offered including the help from these religious groups.

[toxic]

My aunt did that, migrated to Israel, assumed citizenship and then tried to convert the Jews.
Ya gotta know my aunt is a Republican too.

Living amongst Jews is sufficient punishment for being either Jewish, Christian or Republican.

[issac the dragon]

Converting the Jews to Christianity must be a difficult job. It requires they stop being one of two religions that are monodeists, and become polydeists. Thats a lot to swallow. Christianity is a fundamentalist pagan religion. I don't think most Jews are capable of buying it. But they have to suck up to the Christians or America will stop supporting Israel. Bad deal.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Converting the Jews to Christianity must be a difficult job. It requires they stop being one of two religions that are monodeists, and become polydeists. Thats a lot to swallow. Christianity is a fundamentalist pagan religion. I don't think most Jews are capable of buying it. But they have to suck up to the Christians or America will stop supporting Israel. Bad deal.For the reasons you listed, going from christianity to Judaism was very easy. There is a simplicity and logic to Judaism that really appealed to me.

[crazierthanever]

Living amongst Jews is sufficient punishment for being either Jewish, Christian or Republican.

That's a crappy-ass remark. :roll:gaah

[bluedog]

For the reasons you listed, going from christianity to Judaism was very easy. There is a simplicity and logic to Judaism that really appealed to me.

Polytheist? The Christian faith has only one God...that is the God of Adam, The God of Abraham, The God of Moses, The God of the Wise Man, Soloman....and we now are under the rule of the Throne of David....currently occupied by the Christ. In fact I will concede to your point if you can answer one question...who is the "OUR" in the Book of Genesis with whom God was in communication when he created man? Chapter1:26. And the nonsense about, the Christian faith, being formulated at the council of Niasea in 325AD...is not provable, (a true Christian does not accept the pagan ideologies of Christmass or Easter, as any part of their faith, for they are not scriptural)....as some of the writings of Paul the apostle have been authenticated and dated via textual script to have been pined around 62AD...and they very much speak of the divinity of the Christ. BD

[Yellowdogtexan]

The ADL has issued an statement of coulter's desire to convert all Jews to christianity. http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/5149_12.htmNew York, NY, October 12, 2007 ... The Anti-Defamation League strongly condemns Ann Coulter for her anti-Semitic comment that Christians "want Jews to be perfected" in an interview with Donny Deutsch on CNBC's "The Big Idea." During her October 8 appearance, Coulter suggested that Jews should convert, adding that, "we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say. … That's what Christianity is."

Ann Coulter may be a political pundit but she clearly knows very little about religious theology and interfaith issues. Coulter's remarks are outrageous, offensive and a throwback to the centuries-old teaching of contempt for Jews and Judaism. The notion that Jews are religiously inferior or imperfect because they do not accept Christian beliefs was the basis for 2,000 years of church-based anti-Semitism. While she is entitled to her beliefs, using mainstream media to espouse the idea that Judaism needs to be replaced with Christianity and that each individual Jew is somehow deficient and needs to be "perfected," is rank Christian supersessionism and has been rejected by the Catholic Church and the vast majority of mainstream Christian denominations.

Clearly, Ann Coulter needs a wake-up call about the power of words to injure others and fuel hatred. She needs an education, too, about the roots of anti-Semitism and the shared values of Judaism and Christianity. Christians and Jews have worked tirelessly for more than 40 years to overcome the past and to promote a more tolerant and pluralistic vision for the future and especially for America.

Donny Deutsch is to be commended for his immediate and forceful denunciation of Coulter's statements, for calling her remarks personally offensive, and for rightly characterizing her suggestion that Jews are inferior to Christians as anti-Semitism.

[The Q]

Stupid fucking bitch.

ADQ

[crazierthanever]

Stupid fucking bitch.

ADQ

It's got a great beat and you can dance to it. I'll give it a 9!:electric

[Oceanbreeze]

Stupid fucking bitch.

ADQ

:paclap She's a walking time bomb, I don't like her.


I have missionary friends in Germany. Although I respect them for their spiritual following, why go overseas? I think religion is a personal choice regardless what path you choose.

[Oceanbreeze]

Plain and simple, Ann is jealous. "a list of "the world's most powerful people," More than half its members, at least by one count, are Jewish. "


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1191257286817&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Yellowdogtexan]

Here is yet another Jewish group attacking coulter and her anti-semetic statements. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/12/national/main3361954.shtmlJewish groups are firing back at Ann Coulter after the blond-tressed pundit said during an interview yesterday that Jews need to be "perfected" into Christians.

The American Jewish Committee issued a statement declaring that it is "outraged" by Coulter's assertion on Donny Deutsch's CNBC show "The Big Idea" that Jews require "perfecting" by becoming Christians.

"Ms. Coulter's assertion that Jews are somehow religiously imperfect smacks of the most odious anti-Jewish sentiment," said AJC President Richard Sideman.

[bluedog]

To say the least one would have to say that She(Coulter) is "hated" for her views. And mostly, of all people, by the very openminded and liberal elements of our world....one must ask why. Could it be that she is just stating what her faith leads her to say? Could she actually be correct in her statements, and hated with the resentment of the truth? Should one stand by popular opinion or the truth of what they believe....and what is written?

Jesus told his disciples to expect the world to hate them, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me first before it hated you. If ye were of the world the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you"....(John 15:18,19)

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth: to the Jew first, and unto the Greek...(Romans 1:16)

Paul asks in Romans 11:1 "Did God cast off his people(The Jewish nation)"? "No, he has not cast them off, but they(Jews) in their rejection of Gods Son Jesus, have not only rejected the Christ but God as well." In fact the only people being offered salvation under the truth of the gospel at that time were the Jewish people. And the scriptures go on to further state that the only way for anyone to gain the grace of God is to accept the truth of the Christ...and if they do not they are lost in their own disbelief. For there is only one covenant between man and God today, and that is the NT covenant, with Christ having fulfilled the old law and nailed it to his cross....so in her heart she(Coulter) is only doing what the words of her faith instruct her to do...and she is being hated and called a bigot for it. I do not agree with the condescending fashion in which she places her words....but should she at least not be given the same respect of that which the terrorist receive....by the left...no, because they are of this world...and they prove it by their hatred toward the truth? I have personally heard Mr. Yellowdog here defame the Christian people of this world for their "stupidity"....were is the outrage? Where is the hatred for these bigoted words...THAT ARE NOT WRITTEN? BD

[Kurtz]

Geeez, I'm glad I'm not religious! :lmao

However bluedog, I must say your post is pretty informative accordin' to that Christian doctrine. I do have to note that YDT is probably one of the most acceptin' 'n tolerant men of faith in that religious world y'all keep alive. It's my understandin' he actually lives his faith. I've not seen his so-called defamin' of Christians as you claim, maybe it's coz I ain't religious. :lol

The only thang Coulter has in common with Christianity is
she's makin' money like some of their churches, by usin' hate.

[bluedog]

Geeez, I'm glad I'm not religious! :lmao

However bluedog, I must say your post is pretty informative accordin' to that Christian doctrine. I do have to note that YDT is probably one of the most acceptin' 'n tolerant men of faith in that religious world y'all keep alive. It's my understandin' he actually lives his faith. I've not seen his so-called defamin' of Christians as you claim, maybe it's coz I ain't religious. :lol

The only thang Coulter has in common with Christianity is
she's makin' money like some of their churches, by usin' hate.

I have personally been attacked by He....as he accused me of being a bigot and attacking him....By simply posting a few lines of scriptures on a thread. All without my knowledge of He even being of the Jewish faith....go figure. I guess his idea of faith is to attack first and ask questions later...like I said I have often seen his bigoted action in the very threads of post that he presents...its just a double standard, as with hate crime...no one can be charged for hating a Christian. As is apparent by even the retorts on these threads. There is nothing personal at all in my belief of the scriptures as far as showing hatred toward another human being...I wish that I could say the same about others. As the hatred gushes forth....when actual script is presented, and a belief thereof is confessed. As far as making money, at the expense of religion...a common thing among those that espouse that God loves them...but send your money to my address....as I said, I for one would like at least the same respect that is given to other faiths, even to those that attacked us...do not condemn the entirety because some work outside that which is authorized. BD

[Kurtz]

Like I said, I'm glad I'm not religious. :wink

You religious folks sure do have a lot of problems gettin' along with each other.

[Trueblue]

I don't hate Ann for telling the truth. I hate her because she lies so much. Surely all the dogs here, whether blue, yellow, or water, know that's a valid reason to find someone disgusting.

[bluedog]

Like I said, I'm glad I'm not religious. :wink

You religious folks sure do have a lot of problems gettin' along with each other.

Your choice, not to, just as it is my choice to accept the truth thereof. Faith can not be mandated....even if it is of a "secular" nature. BD

[bluedog]

I don't hate Ann for telling the truth. I hate her because she lies so much. Surely all the dogs here, whether blue, yellow, or water, know that's a valid reason to find someone disgusting.

Hate is to strong an adj. for any reason...in a free and democratic republic, and should hold just as much status as any "hate" even that of crime..it just shows you that the "mind" can not be "policed" with hate crime legislation. If in fact the intent of the law was enforced in relation to "Christianity"...There would be quite a few people on this site....posting from behind bars. BD

[Kurtz]

Hate is to strong an adj. for any reason...in a free and democratic republic, and should hold just as much status as any "hate" even that of crime..it just shows you that the "mind" can not be "policed" with hate crime legislation. If in fact the intent of the law was enforced in relation to "Christianity"...There would be quite a few people on this site....posting from behind bars. BD

Darlin', some of these folks stand in front of a bar 'n then
they go home to post here, THAT oughta be against the law. :lmao

Just kiddin' ya, BD. :D

[bluedog]

Darlin', some of these folks stand in front of a bar 'n then
they go home to post here, THAT oughta be against the law. :lmao

Just kiddin' ya, BD. :D

Ah the "semantics" of our English language....very funny when used as comic "relief"....but tragic, when used to "execute" some 40 million human lives...by aborting them due to the language thereof. BD

[April15]

Ann, shock and Awe, Coulter is out to sell books and make money. She claims Liberals are godless and the cons buy every book they can. How to talk to a liberal was another book that shouldn't even be placed in literary circles as it is just kindergarten gergals. That anyone could consider what she says to be a valid point is just silly. Your poop has more value than her words.

[Trueblue]

Hate is to strong an adj. for any reason...in a free and democratic republic, and should hold just as much status as any "hate" even that of crime..it just shows you that the "mind" can not be "policed" with hate crime legislation. If in fact the intent of the law was enforced in relation to "Christianity"...There would be quite a few people on this site....posting from behind bars. BD

I disagree. Not being brought up in the Baptist Church, I am not afraid of saying I hate something or someone when the occasion calls for it.

BTW, you don't understand what hate crimes legislation means. It doesn't mean that you can't hate. I can't believe I have to explain that.

[bluedog]

I disagree. Not being brought up in the Baptist Church, I am not afraid of saying I hate something or someone when the occasion calls for it.

BTW, you don't understand what hate crimes legislation means. It doesn't mean that you can't hate. I can't believe I have to explain that.

It means that you can not prove the content of someone mind...the only executional crime is the one that is committed...not the one that is "thought" about. Action brings crime, as I said if we all were prosecuted for what we "thought" about doing...the jails would not hold us all. I would say that the action of Killing someone...if the malice is with contrived intent is a pretty strong indicator of "hate". One does not need legislation to tell someone that the person that killed someone with deliberate intent....must have looked upon this person with malice of forethought in his intention.

However what if some law were passed that said that it is a "crime" to say that homosexual activity is morally wrong...in public. Would I, then have to "hide" to read the truths of the scriptures...in public...like a church..or an evangelist presentation in an open stadium or other public place? Would the practice of my constitutional right to practice my faith, thus become a crime..or would my right over ride this new law...or how could a law such as this even pass the "constitutional" sniff test...unless it is "opined" from the bench.....Then is not the law taking away the freedom of speech from one...and placing certain special rights upon another? Hate crimes are solely a form of "interpretation" as one can not place absolutes into any can of standard to calibrate all such laws.....Pragmatic law has no place in someones mind....period. BD

[Yellowdogtexan]

Polytheist? The Christian faith has only one God...You are fooling yourself. By Jewish standards, you are wrong. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.htmlThe foundation of Christian theology includes belief in the bodily incarnation of G-d, that G-d exists as a Trinity, and that Jesus was a mediator between G-d and man. "Hebrew Christian" mission-aries claim that this theology is totally compatible with Judaism.

The Jewish Response

As stated earlier, Judaism maintains that certain beliefs may be permissible for non-Jews, but not for Jews. The Christian theology concerning G-d is one example of a belief that is absolutely forbidden to Jews according to the Hebrew Bible, as the following biblical sources demonstrate:

1) The commandment to believe in G-d's absolute Oneness was given specifically to the children of Israel (the Jewish people), as is stated in the Shema, Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear O Israel, The Lord our G-d, the Lord is One." The concept expressed in this verse not only refutes the plurality of gods, but also asserts that G-d is the only true existence. Biblically, G-d is not only infinite, but He transcends time, space and matter. G-d has no beginning and no end, as it says in Isaiah 44:6, "I am the first and I am the last and besides Me there is no other." While Judaism believes that G-d manifests Himself to His creation (humanity) in many ways, (i.e. as a judge or a protector) G-d's essence itself is indivisible and therefore without any possibility of distinction. Something that transcends both time and space cannot be described as consisting of three different aspects. The moment we attribute any such distinctions to G-d's essence, we negate His absolute Oneness and unity.6

The following verses from the Hebrew Bible, when correctly translated, further substantiate this fundamental and crucial Jewish belief in the Oneness of G-d: "See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me" (Deuteronomy 32:39) and "There is nothing else besides G-d" (Deuteronomy 4:35).

2) Jews are also forbidden to envision that G-d has "any likeness of anything." Deuteronomy 4:15-19 and Deuteronomy 5:8-9 are only some of the many biblical references prohibiting Jews from believing that G-d dwells in bodily form, as claimed in the New Testament.7

3) The prohibition against a mediator is found in the Second Commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:3) Therefore, the New Testament statement in John 14:6, that "No one comes to the Father, but through Me [Jesus]" is not acceptable to Jews. Even if he or she considers something to be a part of G-d, a Jew is not permitted to use it as a mediator. The Torah teaches that each person is capable of connecting with G-d directly.

These Christian beliefs, which have their roots in ancient paganism, have been the basis for the Jewish rejection of Christianity -- even on pain of death -- for the last 2,000 years. Historically, Jews have always understood that conversion would mean severing their relationship with G-d as described in the Torah.The whole trinity concept is alien to Judaism and is simply wrong. As noted above the central concept of Judaism in the unity of G-d and the concept of a trinity and for the need for a meditator are simply not part of my religion. I have said this prayer in both Hebrew and English to my children everynight before bed because this prayer is the key aspect of Judaism Hear O Israel, The Lord our G-d, the Lord is One

[Yellowdogtexan]

Jesus told his disciples to expect the world to hate them, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me first before it hated you. If ye were of the world the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you"....(John 15:18,19)too bad that modern christians did not pay attention to these teachings. I hate to have to explain bluedog's religion to him, but he clearly does not understand these quotes. At the time jesus was suppose to have said these teachings, christianity was a minority religion and was being oppressed by majority religions. Now that christianity is the majority religion, you would think that so-called christians would have the sense to apply jesus' teachings to other religions which are in the minority. Again, if you pay attention to these teachings, it is clearly wrong to try to wipe out another minority religion.

[Yellowdogtexan]

I have personally been attacked by He....as he accused me of being a bigot and attacking himYour memory is weak and wrong as is noromal for you. You accused me of being an anti-christ and made some silly and foolish charges due to your ignorance. I was nice and decided not to sic the Anti-defamation league on you because you are clearly too ignorant to understand the seriousness of the charges you made and your opinion was so poorly formed that it would be a waste of the ADL's time to deal with your anti-semitism.

[AYFR]

too bad that modern christians did not pay attention to these teachings. I hate to have to explain bluedog's religion to him, but he clearly does not understand these quotes. At the time jesus was suppose to have said these teachings, christianity was a minority religion and was being oppressed by majority religions. Now that christianity is the majority religion, you would think that so-called christians would have the sense to apply jesus' teachings to other religions which are in the minority. Again, if you pay attention to these teachings, it is clearly wrong to try to wipe out another minority religion.
You don't know how wrong you are.
Yes we were oppressed by other religions, and no we are not to "wipe" out them if wipe out means to kill BUT we are to try and spread hiw word and bring as many as we possibly can to him "Jesus AKA GOD"

Now you will probably say that I am wrong but I will go toe to toe with you about MY religion ANY day of the week.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Now you will probably say that I am wrong but I will go toe to toe with you about MY religion ANY day of the week.I will be glad to go toe to toe with you. I used to be a christian and converted to Judaism for a reason.

As for the attempts of some christians to convert Jews to christianity, here is something from a very good website on this issue. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_obsession.htmlOver the past decade there has been an alarming increase in the influence of evangelical Christianity. This growth has been accompanied by an astonishing increase in Christian missionary activities which target Jews for conversion. The annual budget for one such missionary group, "Jews for Jesus," is over $12 million. Well over 1,000 missionary groups, which actively work to convert Jews worldwide, spend over $250 million each year on their efforts. They sponsor hundreds of full-time missionaries, as well as television and radio programs, and have created over 400 "Messianic synagogues," which strive to appear Jewish but are, in fact, Christian.....

THE Theological OBSESSION

The Christian gospel is described as being "to the Jew first and also to the Greek [gentile]" (Romans 1:16). Fundamentalist evangelical Christians interpret this to mean that they have a mandate to convert every person, but especially Jews.

Many fundamentalist Christians believe that the Jews are the key to bringing about the "Second Coming" of Jesus and salvation to all of mankind. To prove their point, they quote the passages, "Salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22) and "You will not see me until you [the Jews] say, " is he [Jesus] that comes in the name of the Lord'" (Matthew 23:39).

Some believe that Jesus' return is dependent upon the conversion of exactly 144,000 Jews (based upon the seventh chapter of Revelation) and that the rest of the Jews will be wiped out during the great tribulation that will accompany the return of Jesus. In the words of Richard Yao, a non-Jewish former fundamentalist:

"The disturbing thing about all this is that millions of people in this country are getting used to the idea that it's okay for millions and millions of people [Jews] to die in this terrible holocaust [tribulation], because that's a requirement for Jesus to return. I think that's very, very scary."

THE PSYCHOLOGICAL OBSESSION

Since the concept of a Messiah was originally and exclusively a Jewish concept, the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah by the Jews has always posed a serious paradox and dilemma for the Christian Church. Therefore, in the eyes of many evangelical fundamentalists, each conversion of a Jew to Christianity becomes a corroboration of their faith.

For centuries, the response to the Jewish rejection of Jesus has been persecution of Jews rationalized as G-d's divine punishment for having rejected Jesus. The fire of prejudice was fueled by New Testament passages such as:

"You [Jews] are of your father the devil." (John 8:44)

"The Jews who killed both Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, they are not pleasing to G-d." (I Thessalonians 2:15)

"All the people [Jews] answered and said, his blood be upon us and on our children." (Matthew 27:25)

Most fundamentalists will argue that the perpetrators of the history of atrocities against the Jews were not "true" Christians. However, according to many historians, it is precisely such New Testament rhetoric that is responsible for creating the atmosphere in which such events could transpire.2

Today, after almost 2,000 years of Jewish rejection of Jesus, the dilemma still exists. It is out of this tremendous theological and psychological need that the fundamentalist Christians have committed millions of dollars to develop new, sophisticated and often deceptive techniques to convert Jews.The attempts of the christian right to convert Jews to christianity has been well documented.

I love the conclusion to this section.One thing upon which the entire Jewish community and several Christian denominations agree is that "Hebrew Christian" movements are not a part of Judaism. To be a "Jew for Jesus" is as absurd as being a "Christian for Buddha" and as ridiculous as "kosher pork;" it is an obvious contradiction. To paraphrase Elijah, if you are a follower of Jesus, call yourself a Christian. If you are a Jew, practice Judaism. Don't deceive yourself; you can't be both.

In reality, Judaism is a most beautiful and spiritually fulfilling path to serving G-d with all your heart, soul and might.

The Book of Proverbs 3:17-18 describes the Torah in these words, "Its ways are ways of pleasantness, and its paths are peace. It is a tree of life to those who lay hold of it." The best defense against the growing onslaught of missionary propaganda is a deep commitment to Judaism and a thorough understanding of the missionary arguments and the relevant Jewish responses.

[AYFR]

I will be glad to go toe to toe with you. I used to be a christian and converted to Judaism for a reason.

As for the attempts of some christians to convert Jews to christianity, here is something from a very good website on this issue. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_obsession.htmlThe attempts of the christian right to convert Jews to christianity has been well documented.

I love the conclusion to this section.

That conversion tell me that you did not understand Christianity.

Also here is another good site
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about/statementoffaith
http://jewsforjesus.org/answers
Statement of Faith

We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are divinely inspired, verbally and completely inerrant in the original writings and of supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and life.

We recognize the value of traditional Jewish literature, but only where it is supported by or conformable to the Word of God. We regard it as in no way binding upon life or faith.

We believe in one sovereign God, existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, perfect in holiness, infinite in wisdom, unbounded in power and measureless in love; that God is the source of all creation and that through the immediate exercise of His power all things came into being.

We believe that God the Father is the author of eternal salvation, having loved the world and given His Son for its redemption.

We believe that Jesus the Messiah was eternally pre-existent and is co-equal with God the Father; that He took on Himself the nature of man through the virgin birth so that He possesses both divine and human natures.

We believe in His sinless life and perfect obedience to the Law; in His atoning death, burial, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, high-priestly intercession and His personal return in power and glory.

We believe that the Holy Spirit is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Son; that He was active in the creation of all things and continues to be so in providence; that He convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and that He regenerates, sanctifies, baptizes, indwells, seals, illumines, guides and bestows His gifts upon all believers.

We believe that God created man in His image; that because of the disobedience of our first parents at the Garden of Eden they lost their innocence and both they and their descendants, separated from God, suffer physical and spiritual death and that all human beings, with the exception of Jesus the Messiah, are sinners by nature and practice.

We believe that Jesus the Messiah died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice; that all who believe in Him are justified, not by any works of righteousness they have done, but by His perfect righteousness and atoning blood and that there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.

We believe that Israel exists as a covenant people through whom God continues to accomplish His purposes and that the Church is an elect people in accordance with the New Covenant, comprising both Jews and Gentiles who acknowledge Jesus as Messiah and Redeemer.

We believe that Jesus the Messiah will return personally in order to consummate the prophesied purposes concerning His kingdom.

We believe in the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, the everlasting blessedness of the saved and the everlasting conscious punishment of the lost.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Here is a response to the jews for jesus silliness http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.htmlThe Jewish Response
The fact remains that, regardless of superficial attempts to sound Jewish, the term "Hebrew Christian," or "Jew for Jesus," is an oxymoron and a theological contradiction.

So-called "Hebrew Christians" argue that a person who is born Jewish can never lose his birthright or heritage. However, the Bible teaches that your beliefs do influence your Jewish status and that a person who was born a Jew can at some point temporarily cease to be called a Jew.

In the Book of Kings, Elijah the prophet is sent to rebuke those Jews who were worshiping a foreign god called Baal. In I Kings 18:21, Elijah says to them, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is G-d, follow Him: but if Baal, follow him." In other words, you are either a Jew or a worshiper of Baal; you can't be both. The story concludes with the Jews renouncing their idolatrous ways and returning to Judaism.

From this, we derive an important lesson. A Jew who follows another religion is Jewish only to the point that he retains a spiritual obligation to repent and to return to Judaism. However, as long as his beliefs are idolatrous and foreign to Judaism, he cannot call himself a Jew. (It is important to note that a non-practicing Jew is different from a Jew who has chosen to follow a foreign path.)

The Torah teaches that Jews and non-Jews are given different paths to reach G-d. A Jew is obligated to follow the Torah, while a non-Jew must observe the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah.3 One group isn't better than the other, merely different. Therefore, certain beliefs and practices, like eating pork, are permissible for non-Jews but not for Jews. Similarly, the majority of Christian beliefs concerning G-d, salvation and the Messiah do not violate the Noahide covenant for non-Jews, but are absolutely forbidden for Jews. That is why the term "Messianic Jew," "Hebrew Christian," or "Jew for Jesus," is a contradiction.

CLAIM # 2
"THE JEWISH BIBLE IS FULL OF PROPHETIC REFERENCES TO JESUS"
"Hebrew Christians" believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and they attempt to prove this by quoting various passages from the Jewish Bible. Such quotations may sound impressive, overwhelming and confusing to anyone with only a passing knowledge of Judaism and with no command of the Hebrew language.

The Jewish Response
1) The only reason these passages, or so-called "proof texts," appear to be alluding to Jesus is because they have been misquoted, mistranslated, or taken out of context. Any written work, if mistranslated or taken out of context, can be made to suggest meanings which were never intended, as the following examples will clearly demonstrate.

The New Testament is no exception. For example, in the New Testament, (Luke 14:26) Jesus is quoted as saying:

"If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

An initial reading of this verse gives the impression that one must hate one's family, and even oneself, as a prerequisite to being a Christian. However, any Christian confronted with a literal reading of this passage will react defensively and insist that the verse doesn't mean that at all. It only appears that way, he or she will explain, because it is being read out of context and without a proper translation.

This is precisely the point we would like to make. What a verse says and what it means may be completely different. Before one can understand any verse properly, whether from the Jewish Scriptures or from the New Testament, it must be read in context and with an accurate translation.

Similarly, when a missionary quotes a verse from Jewish Scriptures, one should ascertain that the verse is being rendered correctly. For example, Psalm 22:17 from the Hebrew Bible, when correctly translated, reads "They surrounded my hands and feet like a lion4," referring to King David being pursued by his enemies, who are often referred to as a lion (as in Psalms 7 and 17). Yet, when read out of context and mistranslated as "They pierced my hands and feet," as appears in Christian versions, the passage intentionally conjures up thoughts of Jesus.

This example demonstrates only one of the many verses that the missionaries twist and mistranslate to suit their purposes. Judaism has a response and an explanation for each such instance. The rule of thumb is to always ask: "Are these verses being read in context and with an accurate translation?" Sadly, most "Hebrew Christians" blindly accept the Christian interpretation without ever having heard or fully understood the Jewish view.

After an open-minded re-examination of both sides, thousands of "Hebrew Christians" have returned to Judaism.

2) Missionaries often use the New Testament as proof that events or prophecies in their mistranslated passages have been fulfilled. However, to someone familiar with the Jewish Bible, it is obvious that the touted "inerrancy" (i.e., lack of error) of the New Testament is highly questionable. Consider the following examples:

a) In three different places in the Jewish Bible, (Genesis 46:27, Exodus 1:5 and Deuteronomy 10:22,) it is stated that the patriarch Jacob came to Egypt with a total of 70 persons. Acts 7:14 in the New Testament incorrectly gives this number as 75.

b) Hebrews 8:8-13 of the New Testament, when quoting from Jeremiah, states that G-d replaced His Covenant with the Jews with a "New Covenant," claiming that, because the Jews did not keep the "Old Covenant," G-d "no longer cared for them." However, the original Hebrew text in Jeremiah 31:32 of the Jewish Bible does not say that G-d did not care for them, but rather that He "remained a husband to them." Some Christians interpret their translation to mean that G-d broke His Covenant and rejected the Jewish people. This is completely inconsistent with the biblical stance that the commandments are forever (Psalm 119:151-152) and that G-d promised to never reject or break His Covenant5 with the Jews (Judges 2:1 and Leviticus 26:44-45).

c) Hebrews 10:5 of the New Testament, when quoting Psalm 40, claims that G-d replaced animal sacrifices with the death of the Messiah, by stating that, "sacrifices and offerings You have not desired, but a body You have prepared for Me." However, the original quote from Psalm 40:6 does not say this; it says, "sacrifices and meal offerings You have not desired; My ears You have opened." This refers to G-d's desire that we listen to Him, as it says, "Behold! -- to obey is better than sacrifice." (I Samuel 15:22)

Fundamentalist Christians readily accept the Jewish Scriptures as the inspired and "inerrant" word of G-d and as the foundation for the New Testament. If they were to be logically consistent, it would follow that, wherever the "Old" and "New" Testaments contradict each other, the New Testament must be admitted to be obviously the one which is in error.

CLAIM # 3
"SPIRITUAL SALVATION AND A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH G-D CAN ONLY COME THROUGH JESUS"
Missionaries claim that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of G-d" (Romans 2:23), and that there is no salvation from sin or any possibility of a personal relationship with G-d without belief in Jesus. Specifically with regard to Jews, their argument is that Jews have always needed animal blood sacrifices to rid themselves of sin. Since sacrifices were abolished after the destruction of the Temple in Israel, they claim that today Jews can find salvation from sin only by believing in Jesus, who "died on the cross and shed his blood as the final sacrifice."

The Jewish Response

The notion that we are born condemned, and that without the practice of animal sacrifices Jews cannot atone for their sins, represents a blatant misinterpretation of the Jewish Bible.

First of all, the Bible teaches that sin is an act, not a state of being. Mankind was created with an inclination to do evil (Genesis 8:21), and the ability to master this inclination (Genesis 4:7) and choose good over evil (Psalm 37:27). Second, G-d gave us a way to remove our sins. When sacrifices were required they were intended only for unintentional sins (Leviticus 4:1) and served as a means of motivating individuals to true repentance. Numerous passages, including Hosea 14, I Kings 8:44-52 and Jeremiah 29:12-14, inform us that today, without a Temple or sacrifices, our prayers take the place of sacrifices. In addition, we read, "The sacrifices of G-d are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart" (Psalm 51:17) and "I desire kindness and not sacrifices, the knowledge of G-d more than burnt offerings" (Hosea 6:6). The Torah teaches that through repentance, prayer, fasting, and doing what is right, everyone has the ability to return to G-d directly.

This concept is beautifully illustrated in the books of Jonah and Esther, where both Jews and non-Jews repented, prayed to G-d and were forgiven for their sins without having offered any sacrifices.

Missionaries often misinterpret the Jewish tradition that "the suffering of the righteous is a form of atonement." Jewish sources are clear that this concept pertains only to the alleviation of Divine punishment that was decreed upon the Jewish people as a whole. It does not pertain to the removal of an individual's sin. Every person has the responsibility to repent directly to G-d for his own transgressions. (Ezekiel 18:20)

The Hebrew word for repentance is teshuvah--vcua,, and liter-ally means to "return to G-d." Our personal relationship with G-d allows us to turn directly to Him at any time, as it says in Malachi 3:7, "Return to Me and I shall return to you," and in Ezekiel 18:27, "When the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive." Additionally, G-d is extremely compassionate and forgiving as is indicated in Daniel 9:18, "We do not present our supplications before You because of our righteousness, but because of Your abundant mercy."

Contrary to the New Testament (Romans 4:15-16) portrayal of the commandments as a curse and stumbling block, King David says in Psalm 19:7 that "the Law of G-d is perfect, restoring the soul."

King Solomon said that the main purpose of humanity is to believe in G-d and keep his commandments as is stated in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14: "The end of the matter, when all is said and done: Be in awe of G-d and keep his commandments, for that is the whole person."

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 teaches that this path to G-d is unquestionably within our grasp. Isaiah 42:6 teaches that it is the role of Judaism and the Jewish nation to show the world this path by serving as a "light to the nations."

CLAIM # 4
"MIRACLES PROVE THE VALIDITY OF CHRISTIANITY"
Some "Hebrew Christians" argue that turning to Jesus changed their lives and that, as a direct result, they have even experienced miracles.

The Jewish Response

Claims of miracles and of changes in one's life are not unique to any one religion. Converts to cults and to other religions also relate miraculous experiences and events in their lives. The Jewish Bible warns that supposed "miracles" may, in reality, be a test from G-d. A classic example of this is found in the beginning of Chapter 13 of the book of Deuteronomy:

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises and gives you a sign or wonder [miracle], and the sign or wonder comes true, saying, 'le us go after other gods whom you have not known and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your G-d is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the Lord your G-d and fear Him; and listen to His voice, and serve Him, and cling to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death because he has counseled rebellion against the Lord your G-d." (Deuteronomy 13:1-6)

These verses teach us that G-d may allow a false prophet to perform miracles in order to test us to see whether we will follow His will or be misled by so-called miraculous occurrences.

We also see, from Exodus 7:11, that miracles do not necessarily have to be attributed to G-d. In this passage, Pharaoh commands his court magicians to imitate, with their magic, the miracles that Moses and Aaron performed.

These two examples illustrate that we cannot rely upon miracles as proof that our beliefs are true.

[AYFR]

Could do this all day you do know.

[Yellowdogtexan]

I was pleased to see that so many mainstream christian religions are against the Jews for Jesus cult and have condemned this group. http://www.adl.org/special_reports/jews4jesus/christian_responses.aspNot surprisingly, many Jews find the tactics and beliefs of Jews for Jesus offensive, and numerous Jewish leaders have condemned the group. Christians of many denominations have also voiced their disapproval of the group's theology and tactics.

The Interfaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington, an umbrella organization that includes Roman Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran and Presbyterian church groups, has condemned Jews for Jesus as promoting activities "harmful to the spirit of interreligious respect and tolerance." The conference also denounces the group's "deceptive proselytizing efforts," adding that when they are practiced on "vulnerable populations" such as the young or the elderly, these efforts are "tantamount to coerced conversions."

The Board of Governors of The Long Island Council of Churches voiced similar sentiments in a statement that "noted with alarm" the "subterfuge and dishonesty" inherent in the "mixing [of] religious symbols in ways which distort their essential meaning," and named Jews for Jesus as one of the three groups about whom such behavior was alleged.

More broadly, many Christian denominations have explicitly rejected the assumption that undergirds Jews for Jesus' entire theology: that the "Old Covenant" between God and the Jewish people has been revoked and that Jews need Jesus for their salvation.

And while Jews for Jesus would convert all Jews to Christianity, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has stated that since the Second Vatican Council of the 1960s, the Christian evangelizing mission "no longer includes the wish to absorb the Jewish faith into Christianity and so end the distinctive witness of Jews to God in human history."

Many Protestant denominations have voiced similar doctrines. The United Church of Christ, a union of American Protestant churches, stated in 1987 that "God's covenant with the Jewish people has not been abrogated," and that "God has not rejected the Jewish people." A 2002 statement from The Christian Scholars Group on Christian-Jewish Relations, which includes Lutherans, Methodists and Episcopalians, stated that "In view of our conviction that Jews are in an eternal covenant with God, we renounce missionary efforts directed at converting Jews." I was pleased to see so many different Christian religions reject the concepts of these people.

[AYFR]

First Christian is the religions and the defferent parts are called denominations not religions.

Also just as many denominations support Jews for Jesus starting first with the Promise Keepers groups.

[Yellowdogtexan]

First Christian is the religions and the defferent parts are called denominations not religions.

Also just as many denominations support Jews for Jesus starting first with the Promise Keepers groups.I have seen quite a bit of literature describing the jews for jesus group as a cult or sect. Aren't the promise keepers some sort of cult or sect also?

I do not think that the Catholic Church considers itself to be a demonination. This is the largest group of christians in the world and that group has officially declaredthat since the Second Vatican Council of the 1960s, the Christian evangelizing mission "no longer includes the wish to absorb the Jewish faith into Christianity and so end the distinctive witness of Jews to God in human history."

[AYFR]

Lets make this real simple for you

Christians believe everything that Judiasm teaches (the OT) we also believe that Jews are going to heaven, that still doesn't stop us from telling them about Jesus though.

BTW Ann never said that WE need to perfect Jews she said COULTER: No, we think — we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say.

Transcript here
http://ianschwartz.com/2007/10/11/video-ann-coulter-says-jews-need-to-be-perfected-by-becoming-christians/

[Yellowdogtexan]

Lets make this real simple for you

Christians believe everything that Judiasm teaches (the OT) we also believe that Jews are going to heaven, that still doesn't stop us from telling them about Jesus though.There are far more differences than what you have listed between Judaism and christianity. Lets look at one key one http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.htmlThe foundation of Christian theology includes belief in the bodily incarnation of G-d, that G-d exists as a Trinity, and that Jesus was a mediator between G-d and man. "Hebrew Christian" mission-aries claim that this theology is totally compatible with Judaism.

The Jewish Response

As stated earlier, Judaism maintains that certain beliefs may be permissible for non-Jews, but not for Jews. The Christian theology concerning G-d is one example of a belief that is absolutely forbidden to Jews according to the Hebrew Bible, as the following biblical sources demonstrate:

1) The commandment to believe in G-d's absolute Oneness was given specifically to the children of Israel (the Jewish people), as is stated in the Shema, Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear O Israel, The Lord our G-d, the Lord is One." The concept expressed in this verse not only refutes the plurality of gods, but also asserts that G-d is the only true existence. Biblically, G-d is not only infinite, but He transcends time, space and matter. G-d has no beginning and no end, as it says in Isaiah 44:6, "I am the first and I am the last and besides Me there is no other." While Judaism believes that G-d manifests Himself to His creation (humanity) in many ways, (i.e. as a judge or a protector) G-d's essence itself is indivisible and therefore without any possibility of distinction. Something that transcends both time and space cannot be described as consisting of three different aspects. The moment we attribute any such distinctions to G-d's essence, we negate His absolute Oneness and unity.6

The following verses from the Hebrew Bible, when correctly translated, further substantiate this fundamental and crucial Jewish belief in the Oneness of G-d: "See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me" (Deuteronomy 32:39) and "There is nothing else besides G-d" (Deuteronomy 4:35).

2) Jews are also forbidden to envision that G-d has "any likeness of anything." Deuteronomy 4:15-19 and Deuteronomy 5:8-9 are only some of the many biblical references prohibiting Jews from believing that G-d dwells in bodily form, as claimed in the New Testament.7

3) The prohibition against a mediator is found in the Second Commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:3) Therefore, the New Testament statement in John 14:6, that "No one comes to the Father, but through Me [Jesus]" is not acceptable to Jews. Even if he or she considers something to be a part of G-d, a Jew is not permitted to use it as a mediator. The Torah teaches that each person is capable of connecting with G-d directly.

These Christian beliefs, which have their roots in ancient paganism, have been the basis for the Jewish rejection of Christianity -- even on pain of death -- for the last 2,000 years. Historically, Jews have always understood that conversion would mean severing their relationship with G-d as described in the Torah.The concept of the trinity is not Jewish and is in fact is contrary to one of the central beliefs of Judaism, i.e. that the Lord is unitary.

[AYFR]

The Trinity is a NT teaching, I said that we also belived in the OT teachings.

We believe that God is ONE being that has three different aspects.

Like water it is also Ice and vapor.

God is also the Holy Spirit and Jesus

[Yellowdogtexan]

BTW, I found this interesting. The Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that jews for jesus converts are not Jews and therefore are not covered by the law of return. http://www.adl.org/special_reports/jews4jesus/legal_cases.aspIn 1993 Israel's Supreme Court, in a case involving a couple affiliated with Jews for Jesus, ruled that Jews who adhere to the Christian beliefs are regarded by Israeli law as "members of a different faith," and are not eligible for the automatic citizenship that Israel grants Jews. In its summary of the ruling, the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated that the belief that Jesus is the Messiah "cannot be reconciled with Judaism" and "marks the clear separation between Judaism and Christianity." The law of return is very important if you are truly Jewish in that any real Jew as compared to the jews for jesus converts are entitled to Israeli citizenship while a jew for jesus convert is not eligible for return to Israel.

[AYFR]

BTW, I found this interesting. The Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that jews for jesus converts are not Jews and therefore are not covered by the law of return. http://www.adl.org/special_reports/jews4jesus/legal_cases.aspThe law of return is very important if you are truly Jewish in that any real Jew as compared to the jews for jesus converts are entitled to Israeli citizenship while a jew for jesus convert is not eligible for return to Israel.

Bet they don't care either.

[AYFR]

You can argue your religion against mine all day but the fact remains that most Christians recognize Judiasm AND that Jews are God's chosen people destined for Heaven (yes we still tell them about Jesus), the difference is that Jews don't have that same acceptance.

So who is the more tolerant and accepting group?

[bluedog]

You are fooling yourself. By Jewish standards, you are wrong. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.htmlThe whole trinity concept is alien to Judaism and is simply wrong. As noted above the central concept of Judaism in the unity of G-d and the concept of a trinity and for the need for a meditator are simply not part of my religion. I have said this prayer in both Hebrew and English to my children everynight before bed because this prayer is the key aspect of Judaism

You see the problem being is that the Christ is our "priest" and acts as only an advocate to the throne of God. Jesus has not usurped the authority of God..God freely gave this authority to the Christ to defeat the enemy of man...sin. To be a polytheist one must worship more than one God...As a Christian I do not....as the Christ was in fact God..incarnate in the flesh...One God...One faith...One hope....one salvation. The Christ indeed had a duality to his personality....but he was one in the same...He was God in the flesh due to the fact that he was sired by the Holy Spirit of God..and as such he had the Spirit without measure...for what he thought were the exact same thoughts as God. He was the Son of Man by the fact that his mother was human..Mary. Thus he bridged the Gap between man and God to defeat Sin. You see....just because God can exist in three forms does not make him 3 different people. Just as water can exist in 3 shapes. Ice as a solid....Water as a liquid...and mist or vapor...as a gas. Such is God. To redeem man...God had to take on the from of the flesh to accomplish something that no man from the beginning of time has been capable of doing...walking his entire life without sin, as the Christ did...to become the perfect Sacrificial Lamb...to do away with the power of Sin and the Law...that held all mankind bound to its legalities. Like I said the Godhead...even though that it has existed at various times in different shapes....Is one and the same...in fact I will ask you the same question that I have asked many....Just who, is the "our" in the Book of Genesis..that was present when God created man in his own image?

It could not be the angles....as they are but a creation of God..and if man is created in the Image of God....Is God but an angel created by someone else? Think about it...there is but one logical conclusion. BD

[issac the dragon]

Christians believe the OT except where it says, "My covenant with My people shall not pass off the earth."

The Promise Keepers are a men's religious group that wants men to return to the status of head of the household. To keep their women and children submissive. They make all, I stress all, decisions. "Like Sarah, calling her husband Lord." Also keeping them pregnant and barefoot. Gotta love em.

[Yellowdogtexan]

You can argue your religion against mine all day but the fact remains that most Christians recognize Judiasm AND that Jews are God's chosen people destined for Heaven (yes we still tell them about Jesus), the difference is that Jews don't have that same acceptance.

So who is the more tolerant and accepting group?I find the statement from these real christian scholars to be very moving and show who is really accepting. http://bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/sites/partners/csg/Sacred_Obligation.htmFor most of the past two thousand years, Christians have erroneously portrayed Jews as unfaithful, holding them collectively responsible for the death of Jesus and therefore accursed by God. In agreement with many official Christian declarations, we reject this accusation as historically false and theologically invalid. It suggests that God can be unfaithful to the eternal covenant with the Jewish people. We acknowledge with shame the suffering this distorted portrayal has brought upon the Jewish people. We repent of this teaching of contempt. Our repentance requires us to build a new teaching of respect. This task is important at any time, but the deadly crisis in the Middle East and the frightening resurgence of antisemitism worldwide give it particular urgency.

We believe that revising Christian teaching about Judaism and the Jewish people is a central and indispensable obligation of theology in our time. It is essential that Christianity both understand and represent Judaism accurately, not only as a matter of justice for the Jewish people, but also for the integrity of Christian faith, which we cannot proclaim without reference to Judaism. Moreover, since there is a unique bond between Christianity and Judaism, revitalizing our appreciation of Jewish religious life will deepen our Christian faith. We base these convictions on ongoing scholarly research and the official statements of many Christian denominations over the past fifty years.....

Encouraged by the work of both Jewish and Christian colleagues, we offer the following ten statements for the consideration of our fellow Christians. We urge all Christians to reflect on their faith in light of these statements. For us, this is a sacred obligation.

1. God’s covenant with the Jewish people endures forever.

For centuries Christians claimed that their covenant with God replaced or superseded the Jewish covenant. We renounce this claim. We believe that God does not revoke divine promises. We affirm that God is in covenant with both Jews and Christians. Tragically, the entrenched theology of supersessionism continues to influence Christian faith, worship, and practice, even though it has been repudiated by many Christian denominations and many Christians no longer accept it. Our recognition of the abiding validity of Judaism has implications for all aspects of Christian life.

2. Jesus of Nazareth lived and died as a faithful Jew.

Christians worship the God of Israel in and through Jesus Christ. Supersessionism, however, prompted Christians over the centuries to speak of Jesus as an opponent of Judaism. This is historically incorrect. Jewish worship, ethics, and practice shaped Jesus’s life and teachings. The scriptures of his people inspired and nurtured him. Christian preaching and teaching today must describe Jesus’s earthly life as engaged in the ongoing Jewish quest to live out God’s covenant in everyday life.

3. Ancient rivalries must not define Christian-Jewish relations today.

Although today we know Christianity and Judaism as separate religions, what became the church was a movement within the Jewish community for many decades after the ministry and resurrection of Jesus. The destruction of the Jerusalem Temple by Roman armies in the year 70 of the first century caused a crisis among the Jewish people. Various groups, including Christianity and early rabbinic Judaism, competed for leadership in the Jewish community by claiming that they were the true heirs of biblical Israel. The gospels reflect this rivalry in which the disputants exchanged various accusations. Christian charges of hypocrisy and legalism misrepresent Judaism and constitute an unworthy foundation for Christian self-understanding.

4. Judaism is a living faith, enriched by many centuries of development.

Many Christians mistakenly equate Judaism with biblical Israel. However, Judaism, like Christianity, developed new modes of belief and practice in the centuries after the destruction of the Temple. The rabbinic tradition gave new emphasis and understanding to existing practices, such as communal prayer, study of Torah, and deeds of loving-kindness. Thus Jews could live out the covenant in a world without the Temple. Over time they developed an extensive body of interpretive literature that continues to enrich Jewish life, faith, and self-understanding. Christians cannot fully understand Judaism apart from its post-biblical development, which can also enrich and enhance Christian faith.

5. The Bible both connects and separates Jews and Christians.

Some Jews and Christians today, in the process of studying the Bible together, are discovering new ways of reading that provide a deeper appreciation of both traditions. While the two communities draw from the same biblical texts of ancient Israel, they have developed different traditions of interpretation. Christians view these texts through the lens of the New Testament, while Jews understand these scriptures through the traditions of rabbinic commentary.

Referring to the first part of the Christian Bible as the "Old Testament" can wrongly suggest that these texts are obsolete. Alternative expressions – "Hebrew Bible," "First Testament," or "Shared Testament" -- although also problematic, may better express the church’s renewed appreciation of the ongoing power of these scriptures for both Jews and Christians.

6. Affirming God’s enduring covenant with the Jewish people has consequences for Christian understandings of salvation.

Christians meet God's saving power in the person of Jesus Christ and believe that this power is available to all people in him. Christians have therefore taught for centuries that salvation is available only through Jesus Christ. With their recent realization that God’s covenant with the Jewish people is eternal, Christians can now recognize in the Jewish tradition the redemptive power of God at work. If Jews, who do not share our faith in Christ, are in a saving covenant with God, then Christians need new ways of understanding the universal significance of Christ.

7. Christians should not target Jews for conversion.

In view of our conviction that Jews are in an eternal covenant with God, we renounce missionary efforts directed at converting Jews. At the same time, we welcome opportunities for Jews and Christians to bear witness to their respective experiences of God’s saving ways. Neither can properly claim to possess knowledge of God entirely or exclusively.

8. Christian worship that teaches contempt for Judaism dishonors God.

The New Testament contains passages that have frequently generated negative attitudes toward Jews and Judaism. The use of these texts in the context of worship increases the likelihood of hostility toward Jews. Christian anti-Jewish theology has also shaped worship in ways that denigrate Judaism and foster contempt for Jews. We urge church leaders to examine scripture readings, prayers, the structure of the lectionaries, preaching and hymns to remove distorted images of Judaism. A reformed Christian liturgical life would express a new relationship with Jews and thus honor God.

9. We affirm the importance of the land of Israel for the life of the Jewish people.

The land of Israel has always been of central significance to the Jewish people. However, Christian theology charged that the Jews had condemned themselves to homelessness by rejecting God’s Messiah. Such supersessionism precluded any possibility for Christian understanding of Jewish attachment to the land of Israel. Christian theologians can no longer avoid this crucial issue, especially in light of the complex and persistent conflict over the land. Recognizing that both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to live in peace and security in a homeland of their own, we call for efforts that contribute to a just peace among all the peoples in the region.

10. Christians should work with Jews for the healing of the world.

For almost a century, Jews and Christians in the United States have worked together on important social issues, such as the rights of workers and civil rights. As violence and terrorism intensify in our time, we must strengthen our common efforts in the work of justice and peace to which both the prophets of Israel and Jesus summon us. These common efforts by Jews and Christians offer a vision of human solidarity and provide models of collaboration with people of other faith traditions.
This is a very well done paper and the work of this group is truly inspiring.

[Trueblue]

It means that you can not prove the content of someone mind...the only executional crime is the one that is committed...not the one that is "thought" about. Action brings crime, as I said if we all were prosecuted for what we "thought" about doing...the jails would not hold us all. I would say that the action of Killing someone...if the malice is with contrived intent is a pretty strong indicator of "hate". One does not need legislation to tell someone that the person that killed someone with deliberate intent....must have looked upon this person with malice of forethought in his intention.

However what if some law were passed that said that it is a "crime" to say that homosexual activity is morally wrong...in public. Would I, then have to "hide" to read the truths of the scriptures...in public...like a church..or an evangelist presentation in an open stadium or other public place? Would the practice of my constitutional right to practice my faith, thus become a crime..or would my right over ride this new law...or how could a law such as this even pass the "constitutional" sniff test...unless it is "opined" from the bench.....Then is not the law taking away the freedom of speech from one...and placing certain special rights upon another? Hate crimes are solely a form of "interpretation" as one can not place absolutes into any can of standard to calibrate all such laws.....Pragmatic law has no place in someones mind....period. BD

You still don't get it. You are trying to say that charging someone with a hate crime is like a thought crime, which is ridiculous.

Think for five seconds-how could your religion be a hate crime under the proposed hate crimes legislation? And after that, please don't show up and pretend that anyone is in favor of punishing people for thoughts of killing.

BTW, do you agree with the idea of first and second degree murder, and voluntary and involuntary manslaughter.

And one more thing-your spell of coherent posts was sadly short lived.

You are fooling yourself. By Jewish standards, you are wrong. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/handbook/s_hebrew_christian.htmlThe whole trinity concept is alien to Judaism and is simply wrong. As noted above the central concept of Judaism in the unity of G-d and the concept of a trinity and for the need for a meditator are simply not part of my religion. I have said this prayer in both Hebrew and English to my children everynight before bed because this prayer is the key aspect of Judaism

The Trinity is a way of explaining God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Different aspects of God, not different gods.

[AYFR]

Christians believe the OT except where it says, "My covenant with My people shall not pass off the earth."

The Promise Keepers are a men's religious group that wants men to return to the status of head of the household. To keep their women and children submissive. They make all, I stress all, decisions. "Like Sarah, calling her husband Lord." Also keeping them pregnant and barefoot. Gotta love em.
That is not what they are about. That is not HONORING your wife as directed. Sorry try again.
Never at any of the PK conferences I have been at have I heard that women should call husbands Lord and just fall lock step with them.
I find the statement from these real christian scholars to be very moving and show who is really accepting. http://bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/sites/partners/csg/Sacred_Obligation.htmThis is a very well done paper and the work of this group is truly inspiring.
Ok I agree with that

[AYFR]

Again it shows Christians to be more accepting

[Trueblue]

The way Promise Keepers sounds to me, it is like if I am submissive, my husband will do me a favor and be a good husband.

Forget that, he's a GREAT husband without my being submissive. We respect each other, and no semantical bs is needed about how I obey him and then he loves me. If God wanted me to be submissive, God wouldn't have made me this smart.

As Christians, we study the OT, but we don't follow the laws in Leviticus-guess what, neither do many Jews.

[bluedog]

You still don't get it. You are trying to say that charging someone with a hate crime is like a thought crime, which is ridiculous.

Think for five seconds-how could your religion be a hate crime under the proposed hate crimes legislation? And after that, please don't show up and pretend that anyone is in favor of punishing people for thoughts of killing.

BTW, do you agree with the idea of first and second degree murder, and voluntary and involuntary manslaughter.

And one more thing-your spell of coherent posts was sadly short lived.



The Trinity is a way of explaining God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Different aspects of God, not different gods.

A parable would best suit to explain....as a picture presents a much clearer comprehension of a subject matter than does just a simple explanation, even if the portrait is painted with words.

A prime example of the injustice of a hate crime and how it can be abused and misinterpret the intent of someones heart(mind). In the state of Wis. there are certain hate crimes on the books, the state where this article takes place. I will try to relay the jest of the story even though the exact names of the characters escapes my memory due to the length of time that has past form the reading of this story. As I said the story takes place in the state of Wis. A gentleman who was a Christian convert after living the first few years of his adult live as one being involved in the homosexual lifestyle. The man had sense married and 3 children.

One Sunday afternoon, after having attended his normal church services, he decided to stop at his local carwash. As he pulled into the parking lot another car happened to sitting next in line in front of him, he noticed a "Gay Pride" sticker in the rear window. As the both exited their respective cars to go to the common weighting room, he started a conversation with the gentleman of whom the other car belonged. A friendly conversation, and as he tried to breach the subject of homosexuality...by informing the gentleman that he had seen his Gay Pride sticker, and informed him that he also was involved in the lifestyle at one time in his youth. Before he could explain, his intentions of only wanting to "talk" the man attacked him told him that he did not have to listen to any bible thumping nonsense, in fact the man stuck him one time. He being the larger man, simply shoved him aside and found his car and left.

Several months later this gentleman was presented at his with a court summons to appear to explain the charges of involving a "hate crime". This man had to spend several thousand dollars...and still had to plead guilty and go through an anger management program run by the state, which just happened to instructed by two homosexuals. To avoid real jail time and have to be away from his family, this man paid the legal fees required and the price of the anger management classes. He said, they never even asked me one time if I had approached this man out of anger....which I did not, my only concern was empathy. BD

[issac the dragon]

You ask first that we believe the side of the story told by your freind. Okay. The entire situation could have been avoided if he had minded his own business and not seen the bumpersticker as an opportunity to try to shove his religion down someone else's throat. There is a moral here. MYOB. Something some so called Christians don't do very well.

[AYFR]

The way Promise Keepers sounds to me, it is like if I am submissive, my husband will do me a favor and be a good husband.

Forget that, he's a GREAT husband without my being submissive. We respect each other, and no semantical bs is needed about how I obey him and then he loves me. If God wanted me to be submissive, God wouldn't have made me this smart.

As Christians, we study the OT, but we don't follow the laws in Leviticus-guess what, neither do many Jews.

That is not what PK is

Sorry it just doesn't teach that.

It teaches men how to be better men, husbands, and fathers.

It also teaches to respect women.

[Kurtz]

And one more thing-your spell of coherent posts was sadly short lived.

Um, Garcon, can we get this put into the Quotes?
TB said it to bluedog 'n she's so right, he's been better.


:kurtz

[Kurtz]

Promise Keepers!?! :eek

OMG, those people. :roll



:mob
They should be run outta town.

[AYFR]

The way Promise Keepers sounds to me, it is like if I am submissive, my husband will do me a favor and be a good husband.

Forget that, he's a GREAT husband without my being submissive. We respect each other, and no semantical bs is needed about how I obey him and then he loves me. If God wanted me to be submissive, God wouldn't have made me this smart.

As Christians, we study the OT, but we don't follow the laws in Leviticus-guess what, neither do many Jews.

Seeing as some don't quite understand

Question: "Does a wife have to submit to her husband?"

Answer: This is a very important issue in regard to marriage and also in everyday life. God designed the act of submission in Genesis. In the beginning, since there was no sin, there was no authority for man to obey except God’s authority. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, sin entered the world and then authority was needed. Therefore, God established the authority needed to enforce the laws of the land and also to provide us with the protection we need. First, we need to submit to God, which is the only way we can truly obey Him (James 1:21 and James 4:7). In 1 Corinthians 11:2-3, we find that the husband is to submit to Christ as Christ did to God. Then the verse says that the wife should follow his example and submit to her husband. Other verses about Christ submitting to God are found in Matthew 26:39 and John 5:30.

Submission is a natural response to loving leadership. When a husband loves his wife as Christ loves the church (Ephesians 5:25-33), then submission is a natural response from a wife to her husband. The Greek word translated submit (Hupotasso) is the continuing form of the verb. This means that to submit to God, our leaders, and our husband is not a one-time decision. It is a continual attitude of our minds, which becomes a pattern of behavior. The submission talked about in Ephesians 5 is not talking about one-sided subjection by a believer to a selfish-domineering person. Biblical submission is designed to be between two Spirit-filled believers who are mutually yielded to each other and to God. Submission is a two-way street. Submission is a position of honor and completeness. When a wife is loved as Christ loves the church, submission is not difficult. Ephesians 5:24 says, “just as the church submits itself to Christ.” This verse is saying that the wife is to submit to her husband in everything that is right and lawful. Therefore, the wife is under no obligation to disobey the law or neglect her relationship to God.

The woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam; not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved. The “submit” in Ephesians 5:21 is the same word as in 5:22. Believers are to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Verses 19-21 are all results of being filled with the Holy Spirit (5:18). Spirit-filled believers are to be worshipful (5:19), thankful (5:20), and submissive (5:21). Paul then follows his line of thought on Spirit-filled living and applies it to husbands and wives in verses 22-33.
http://www.gotquestions.org/wives-submit.html

[AYFR]

Promise Keepers!?! :eek

OMG, those people. :roll



:mob
They should be run outta town.
Unless you have been don't judge.

I have been and the bad stories about them are FALSE

[Kurtz]

Unless you have been don't judge.

I have been and the bad stories about them are FALSE

You know I ain't MAN enough for those folks. :lmao

I don't have to be an idiot to know one.


Good thang I know you're really a great guy. :hug

:kurtz

[AYFR]

You know I ain't MAN enough for those folks. :lmao

I don't have to be an idiot to know one.


Good thang I know you're really a great guy. :hug

:kurtz

Psst there are women at those conventions :faint:para

[Saguaro]

Seeing as some don't quite understand


http://www.gotquestions.org/wives-submit.html

You claim to be a CHRISTIAN ..then why are you quoting and following the OT ?
:think

[AYFR]

Christ said

I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Christianity is the following of Christ and he quoted and followed the OT.

The NT does not contridict the OT it completes it.

[Saguaro]

Oh really ? you must be Baptist

[AYFR]

Hardly

I am a non-demoninational

[Kurtz]

Psst there are women at those conventions :faint:para

:eek

What kinda woman goes to that kinda function?
No, don't tell me, I don't wanna know.
Makes me cry :cry

[Kurtz]

Hardly

I am a non-demoninational


But you are a 'Born Again', that's in a class all its' own.

Certainly different from Catholics 'n Methodists.

[AYFR]

:eek

What kinda woman goes to that kinda function?
No, don't tell me, I don't wanna know.
Makes me cry :cry
Not like that, they help out and they also listen
But you are a 'Born Again', that's in a class all its' own.

Certainly different from Catholics 'n Methodists.
YEP

[Saguaro]

I could go on and on again about the differences in the OT compared to what Christ said , but tonight I am NOT in the mood

[Kurtz]

Not like that, they help out and they also listen

YEP

Ya know, maybe on second thought I could use one of those ladies. :lol

I'm just teasin' ya, Rev.
Hell, I got friends who go to that function, not close friends, but good friends,
okay, some are good close friends, but hell, they are good folks. :lol

[Yellowdogtexan]

A parable would best suit to explain....as a picture presents a much clearer comprehension of a subject matter than does just a simple explanation, even if the portrait is painted with words. Your hypothecal is not real world or you have left out some critical facts. Not being a lawyer and not understanding even simply concepts it is clear that you do not understand hate crime laws and are confused. The only way that your situation could have occured is if this was in Jena, LA and your friend had runned afoul of the corrupt DA that is in that town.

Hate crime laws do not punish thought or ideas but do punish specific conduct that can be proved. http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_opinion_letters/2007/07/essential-hate-.htmlHate crime laws-now on the books in 45 states and the District of Columbia-do not punish thoughts.

Americans are free to think and believe whatever they want.

It is only when an individual commits a crime based on biased beliefs and intentionally targets another that a hate crime statute is triggered.

The bias motive for the crime cannot be incidental; it must be proven with evidence beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. That high bar-far from "mind reading"-prompted the U.S. Supreme Court to unanimously uphold hate crime laws against a 1st Amendment challenge in 1993.

Moreover, hate crime laws do not confer "special rights." In fact, they operate a lot like the nation's anti-discrimination laws. Would Parker argue that Title VII treats victims of workplace discrimination as "more special than others"? Not at all.

Like anti-discrimination laws, hate crime laws are color-blind and inclusive, and demonstrate an essential commitment by our society to deter and address all prejudiced conduct. The only way that your fantasy could occur would be if your friend hired someone who was as uninformed as you are about how hate crime laws work or you have left out some key facts (which would be normal given that you do not understand these laws and what facts are relevant).

Finally, this hate crime fantasy has nothing to do with this thread. The fact that you think that this concept has any relevance is very very sad and is proof that laypersons should keep away from the law.

[Yellowdogtexan]

The NT does not contridict the OT it completes it.You do not know what you are talking about. A key aspect of christianity is that this religion decided to abandon the concept of complying with the Jewish laws and traditions in favor of concentrating on converting the greeks and then the romans. That may have been a good business decision but it means that christianity abandoned many of the key concepts of Judaism in order to gain converts among the greeks and romans.

The new testament rejects the concept of monothesim for a three in one deity that Judaism rejects. Again, one of the key prayers in Judaism is the shemial which celebrates that fact that G-d is one (not three different pieces).

The NT has the concept that you have to come to what passes for salvation through a mediator or conduit (i.e. jesus) while Judasim is clear that each Jew has the right and power to find G-d and redemption on their own without the help of any third party. The NT tries to completely re-write the concept of the Messiah and under the OT it is very clear that jesus does not come close to meeting the definition of a messiah as set forth in the Torah and the haf-torah.

There is nothing in current day christianity that I know that compares to the soul searching expierence of the High Holy days and the days of Awe. Again, these concepts and the adherence to jewish traditions were abandoned in favor of the christian faith concentrating on the conversion of the greeks and romans.

I can go on and I can pull some good analysis and sermons on the differences but that is pointless.

[Trueblue]

A parable would best suit to explain....as a picture presents a much clearer comprehension of a subject matter than does just a simple explanation, even if the portrait is painted with words.

A prime example of the injustice of a hate crime and how it can be abused and misinterpret the intent of someones heart(mind). In the state of Wis. there are certain hate crimes on the books, the state where this article takes place. I will try to relay the jest of the story even though the exact names of the characters escapes my memory due to the length of time that has past form the reading of this story. As I said the story takes place in the state of Wis. A gentleman who was a Christian convert after living the first few years of his adult live as one being involved in the homosexual lifestyle. The man had sense married and 3 children.

One Sunday afternoon, after having attended his normal church services, he decided to stop at his local carwash. As he pulled into the parking lot another car happened to sitting next in line in front of him, he noticed a "Gay Pride" sticker in the rear window. As the both exited their respective cars to go to the common weighting room, he started a conversation with the gentleman of whom the other car belonged. A friendly conversation, and as he tried to breach the subject of homosexuality...by informing the gentleman that he had seen his Gay Pride sticker, and informed him that he also was involved in the lifestyle at one time in his youth. Before he could explain, his intentions of only wanting to "talk" the man attacked him told him that he did not have to listen to any bible thumping nonsense, in fact the man stuck him one time. He being the larger man, simply shoved him aside and found his car and left.

Several months later this gentleman was presented at his with a court summons to appear to explain the charges of involving a "hate crime". This man had to spend several thousand dollars...and still had to plead guilty and go through an anger management program run by the state, which just happened to instructed by two homosexuals. To avoid real jail time and have to be away from his family, this man paid the legal fees required and the price of the anger management classes. He said, they never even asked me one time if I had approached this man out of anger....which I did not, my only concern was empathy. BD

Well, maybe he can hire Stan Brand to appeal that conviction.

Seriously, this story isn't about thought crime, it's about an assault. There is still an underlying crime.

That is not what PK is

Sorry it just doesn't teach that.

It teaches men how to be better men, husbands, and fathers.

It also teaches to respect women.

Men and women have equal intelligence, overall. Therefore, the idea of a blanket rule that men should have the final say is not sensible, IMO.

I've read articles and heard explanations like the one you posted about women's submission many times. It still says that I am to be submissive. I'm sorry, but I'm not made like that. Nor can I tolerate a man being submissive to me. In my marriage, we decide things as equals, with respect for each other.

Respect isn't enough, I want equal rights. I am thankful that I'm married to someone who feels the same way.

I am not in any way saying that you mistreat your wife, simply that the stuff about being submissive is something that I have thought about, and reject.

[AYFR]

Well, maybe he can hire Stan Brand to appeal that conviction.

Seriously, this story isn't about thought crime, it's about an assault. There is still an underlying crime.



Men and women have equal intelligence, overall. Therefore, the idea of a blanket rule that men should have the final say is not sensible, IMO.

I've read articles and heard explanations like the one you posted about women's submission many times. It still says that I am to be submissive. I'm sorry, but I'm not made like that. Nor can I tolerate a man being submissive to me. In my marriage, we decide things as equals, with respect for each other.

Respect isn't enough, I want equal rights. I am thankful that I'm married to someone who feels the same way.

I am not in any way saying that you mistreat your wife, simply that the stuff about being submissive is something that I have thought about, and reject.

Apparently you did not read what I posted because what I posted said

Biblical submission is designed to be between two Spirit-filled believers who are mutually yielded to each other and to God. Submission is a two-way street

and

not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him.


:wall:wall:wall:wall

[AYFR]

Back on topic


Ann Coulter is NOT an Anti-Semite

I must have gotten thirty emails since yesterday morning that said "are you going to blast Ann Coulter?" or "how come you aren't talking about what Ann Coulter said?" Usually I am the first to rant about anti-Semitic statements, but I was going to pass on this story because I don't think she is an anti-Semite or that her statement is anti-Semitic.

Firstly for those of you who were vacationing on the moon yesterday, Ann Coulter appeared on Donny Deutsch's show on CNBC (sorry I have a friend that worked for his father and hence he will always be known as Donny to me). On the show she said some pretty controversial things the one that is getting the most attention is that in order to become perfect, Jews have to become Christians.

Some people say that her comment was anti-Semitic---its not. Ms Coulter's comments had nothing to do with Jews, and everything to do with selling books. Every time she come out with a new book she manages to say something controversial to piss of one group and grab the headlines. When her last book came out she made a comment that the 9/11 widow were enjoying all of the attention they were receiving, it was almost as if they were enjoying their spouses death.

Even without the "marketing" angle she said nothing anti-Semitic. Let me put it this way, if Ms Coulter thought that Judaism was the way to perfection, she would convert. Or to put it another way, and I don't mean anything disparagingly about what I am going to say, I think that Christians have it wrong---let face it, if I thought they had it right I would be going to Church on Sunday instead of Shul on Saturday. On the other hand I also belive that Judaism and Christianity are both paths to the same end. Ms Coulter didn't say that Jews think they have a monopoly on God like Bishop Tutu, She only said that she believes her religion is the right one. Good for her ! Because if all Jews and all Christians believed that their faith was the correct one, and followed its teaching to a "t" then this world would be a MUCH better place.

Folks Ann Coulter is a very smart woman. With this comment she will be on all of the news shows----free marketing. As I said to a friend last night, I refuse to fall for a cheap PR trick, unless I have an exclusive. Please don't get angry--because her approach has been working. She sells lots of books and she doesn't hate Jews----she loves residuals.
http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2007/10/is-ann-coulter.html
http://www.israelforum.com/blog_article.php?aid=1030224 back up link
Another here
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/10/nice_try_media.html

And here
Apparently Deutsch failed Religion 101. For the most part, all religions have beliefs that exclude others. Muslim law puts the lowest Muslim in a higher social and theological strata than even the most righteous non-Muslim. Christians believe the sole path to salvation is through Jesus. Jews exclude pagans, atheists and polytheists from the World to Come.

Deutsch is offended because Colter believes Jews need to be "perfected" and that, even though Jews will get to Heaven, they won't get there as fast or as painlessly as Christians.
I don't like Ann Coulter, but this whole brouhaha says far more about Deutsch's ignorance of Judaism and it's theology than it does about Coulter and her professed beliefs.

Ann Coulter is not antisemitic. Donny Deutsch, however, is ignorant of Jewish theology and law, and his grasp of general religious theory is quite weak. Coulter believes Jews get to Heaven. For a Christian, this an enlightened view. Can you imagine the average Christian professing this 100 years ago? 500?

If you're going to discuss religion in public, you owe it to yourself and everyone else to actually know what you're talking about. Perhaps MSNBC's Deutsch could process that.
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/10/is-ann-coulter-.html

[AYFR]

Well, maybe he can hire Stan Brand to appeal that conviction.

Seriously, this story isn't about thought crime, it's about an assault. There is still an underlying crime.



Men and women have equal intelligence, overall. Therefore, the idea of a blanket rule that men should have the final say is not sensible, IMO.

I've read articles and heard explanations like the one you posted about women's submission many times. It still says that I am to be submissive. I'm sorry, but I'm not made like that. Nor can I tolerate a man being submissive to me. In my marriage, we decide things as equals, with respect for each other.

Respect isn't enough, I want equal rights. I am thankful that I'm married to someone who feels the same way.

I am not in any way saying that you mistreat your wife, simply that the stuff about being submissive is something that I have thought about, and reject.

What happen when you don't agree on something? You are not understanding what submission means here. It is not the man "ruling" completely. It is about being equal and both being submissive to each other. That is the only way you can be submissive to God.

As for me an my wife we decide thing equally because we are submissive to each other and to God

The woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam; not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved.

[Yellowdogtexan]

As for your clips about Coulter not being an anti-semite, I again heard what coulter said and the opinion of other idiots really does not matter. I remind you that two of the more important Jewish organizations, the ADL and the AJC have both come down on coulter being a disgusting human being and the opinions of these organizations trumps the silly and ill-informed opinions of idiots like you and the people you quoted.

[Trueblue]

Apparently you did not read what I posted because what I posted said

Biblical submission is designed to be between two Spirit-filled believers who are mutually yielded to each other and to God. Submission is a two-way street

and

not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him.


:wall:wall:wall:wall

I READ IT. I saw that it's supposed to be EASY for a woman to submit to her husband.

Whoever wrote that is wrong.

I've been arguing this point for thirty years-and I've never heard any argument for it other than the ones that you are making here.

:wall :wall :wall :wall back at you and every other man and woman who makes this argument.

What happen when you don't agree on something? You are not understanding what submission means here. It is not the man "ruling" completely. It is about being equal and both being submissive to each other. That is the only way you can be submissive to God.

As for me an my wife we decide thing equally because we are submissive to each other and to God

The woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam; not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved.

I understand it better than you, being the person that is supposedly supposed to submit.

If we don't agree, we keep talking till we work something out. After twenty five years, that has happened and we have always been able to work out a compromise without either one submitting to the other.

[Trueblue]

You do not know what you are talking about. A key aspect of christianity is that this religion decided to abandon the concept of complying with the Jewish laws and traditions in favor of concentrating on converting the greeks and then the romans. That may have been a good business decision but it means that christianity abandoned many of the key concepts of Judaism in order to gain converts among the greeks and romans.

The new testament rejects the concept of monothesim for a three in one deity that Judaism rejects. Again, one of the key prayers in Judaism is the shemial which celebrates that fact that G-d is one (not three different pieces).

The NT has the concept that you have to come to what passes for salvation through a mediator or conduit (i.e. jesus) while Judasim is clear that each Jew has the right and power to find G-d and redemption on their own without the help of any third party. The NT tries to completely re-write the concept of the Messiah and under the OT it is very clear that jesus does not come close to meeting the definition of a messiah as set forth in the Torah and the haf-torah.

There is nothing in current day christianity that I know that compares to the soul searching expierence of the High Holy days and the days of Awe. Again, these concepts and the adherence to jewish traditions were abandoned in favor of the christian faith concentrating on the conversion of the greeks and romans.

I can go on and I can pull some good analysis and sermons on the differences but that is pointless.

Maybe in your experience, but not in mine. The law was placed as secondary to doing God's will. I have respect for Judaism, but I don't consider either religion to be superior or inferior to the other. People need to find their own paths to God, IMO.

[AYFR]

I READ IT. I saw that it's supposed to be EASY for a woman to submit to her husband.

Whoever wrote that is wrong.

I've been arguing this point for thirty years-and I've never heard any argument for it other than the ones that you are making here.

:wall :wall :wall :wall back at you and every other man and woman who makes this argument.



I understand it better than you, being the person that is supposedly supposed to submit.

If we don't agree, we keep talking till we work something out. After twenty five years, that has happened and we have always been able to work out a compromise without either one submitting to the other.

Sorry but compromising is BOTH parties submiting.

[Yellowdogtexan]

Maybe in your experience, but not in mine. The law was placed as secondary to doing God's will. I have respect for Judaism, but I don't consider either religion to be superior or inferior to the other. People need to find their own paths to God, IMO.I was speaking from my personal expierence only and for me Juadism was the right choice.
The point that I was making is that Judaism is far more different from christianity than The Reverand was claiming. Christianity made the decision to abandon adherence to Jewish laws, traditions and practices in order to concentrate on the conversion or recruitment of the greeks and later the romans. Again, this was a good decision for christianity but it does meant that there are far more differences between Judasim and christianity than were contemplated or mentioned by the Reverand.

Even though the decision to convert has exposed my family to such fun things as having an anti-semite from Salt Lake City attack my son at the National Scout Jamboree, the decision has been a good one for my family. There is something very special about Yom Kippur and the days of awe that I did not find in christianity. Fasting for 24 hours and spending an entire day praying for atonement and at-one-ment with my entire community is very moving spiritually for me. I also find comfort in that I know that the Torah that we read each week is the exact same Torah as has been read by Jews for thousands of years with no changes or mistranslations. We recently has a cermony where the entire congregation got to hold and dance with a couple of my Temple's Torahs that was very meaningful to me and my children.

Finally, there is nothing as satisfying and moving as watching a child go through their bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah. I still remember the bar mitzvah or bat mitzvahs of my children and was happy to participate as a Temple board member in the bar mitzvah or bat mitzvahs of a number of the children in the Temple.

Judaism is different from christianity and for me it was the better path to follow. Again, it was not an easy decision to convert but it was the right decision for me.

[AYFR]

Lets see here, if you attack the Jewish religion,(Judiasm), suddenly you are a racist and an anti-semite but if you attack other religions that is ok right YDT?

Coulter did not attack a race she attacked a religion and thus she is not an anti-semite, unless you want to call all those that attack Christianity, Islam, and other religions racist as well.

Are you prepared to do that or is Judiasim the only religion that is not allowed to be attacked?

[Yellowdogtexan]

I am not wondering about your intelligence, I have made my assessment and your post here confirms that my assessment is correct. Your definition of anti-semitism is amusing and wrong.

Coulter is an anti-semite. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/12/national/main3361954.shtml?source=mostpop_storyThe American Jewish Committee issued a statement declaring that it is "outraged" by Coulter's assertion on Donny Deutsch's CNBC show "The Big Idea" that Jews require "perfecting" by becoming Christians.

"Ms. Coulter's assertion that Jews are somehow religiously imperfect smacks of the most odious anti-Jewish sentiment," said AJC President Richard Sideman.

While appearing on "The Big Idea," Coulter said Judaism should be discarded, that Jews required Christianity to be "perfected," and that Christianity had a "fast track" to God.

"One would think she would know better than to utter such intolerant words," Sideman said. Here is the statement of the ADL on coulter. The Anti-Defamation League also issued a statement saying it "strongly condemns" Coulter for "her anti-Semitic comment."

"Ann Coulter may be a political pundit but she clearly knows very little about religious theology and interfaith issues," the ADL said in a statement. "Coulter's remarks are outrageous, offensive and a throwback to the centuries-old teaching of contempt for Jews and Judaism.

"The notion that Jews are religiously inferior or imperfect because they do not accept Christian beliefs was the basis for 2,000 years of church-based anti-Semitism. While she is entitled to her beliefs, using mainstream media to espouse the idea that Judaism needs to be replaced with Christianity and that each individual Jew is somehow deficient and needs to be 'perfected,' is rank Christian supersessionism and has been rejected by the Catholic Church and the vast majority of mainstream Christian denominations."
These two organizations know far more about anti-semetism than a silly and poorly informed person like you.

[April15]

But you are a 'Born Again', that's in a class all its' own.

Certainly different from Catholics 'n Methodists.So is that why the pope or whoever it was doing the communion in San Francisco is in such a tizzy?

[Trueblue]

Sorry but compromising is BOTH parties submiting.

:lol

[AYFR]

I am not wondering about your intelligence, I have made my assessment and your post here confirms that my assessment is correct. Your definition of anti-semitism is amusing and wrong.

Coulter is an anti-semite. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/12/national/main3361954.shtml?source=mostpop_storyHere is the statement of the ADL on coulter. These two organizations know far more about anti-semetism than a silly and poorly informed person like you.

So basically you are saying that insulting other religions is OK but not insulting the Jewis reigion.

That was what she did. HYPOCRITE

You don't get this riled up when people attack Christians. You are pathetic and one day your facist views will catch up with you.

[bluedog]

What I find interesting is the way people have cognation to reason to justify and rationalize the choices they make....in particularly when someone makes the statement...."I chose....such and such religion as the faith for me." As I always have said, one can not choose the truth...something is either true or it is not. My first response to someone such as this is to conclude that they simply do not "believe" in the Bible. "Ah! So you don't believe the Bible."

You see, the Bible does claim to be more than any other relig