Keeping God in the Public Square

[Viki]

On lots of other threads recently (and, it seems, perennially) with questions pertaining to such topics as school prayer, the debate seems to be framed as God or no God in the public square (prayer at public events, celebrating Christmas or Hanukkah or Ramadan).

My take is different (and apparently so is Obama's, from his comments concerning the building of the Kingdom of God on earth over the weekend); I don't care which God, but I'd like to argue for keeping God language in all of these places.

One of the reasons I like the idea of ALL Gods in the public square is because I like a good debate and am always up for defending my conception of God, which I happen to think is the most life giving, but also because I tend to go with the classic 20th century Protestant conception of God, which is, "that which gives your life its ultimate meaning (ala Barth)."

From this perspective there is absolutely NO POSSIBILITY of God being absent from public discourse ... whenever we talk about those things and concepts about which we care the most ... money, family, secular humanism, the environment or baseball, for some, we are already talking about OUR God, and so the distinct banishment of the specific mention of traditionally conceived Gods is already filled with hubris and tinged with deception.

So, the debate is not God or no God. The debate is meaning, no meaning, or which flavor of meaning.

[patriotsblade]

It's not God that we have to keep out of the public square. It's the notion that some people have that they have been granted special privileges by their God that creates disenfranchisement of another group.

I am not member of the 'big 3' so to speak, so I sort of see this from the outside looking in, and what I see is a big 'my invisible man is better than your invisible man' contest.

[Viki]

It's not God that we have to keep out of the public square. It's the notion that some people have that they have been granted special privileges by their God that creates disenfranchisement of another group.

I am not member of the 'big 3' so to speak, so I sort of see this from the outside looking in, and what I see is a big 'my invisible man is better than your invisible man' contest.


Good point and I try to be honest (as I was in my post, contra Look and Learn's fears that I was giving into some secular relativism "all gods are equal" treatment) that I HONESTLY believe that the God of Jesus Christ, as that God is evidenced in a faith born of unconditional forgiveness and limitless freedom) is the best God humanity has ever encountered (note that my definition of the God of Jesus Christ would exclude most brands of evangelical Christianity, which, in my view are more Pharisaical than anything else, which, believe me, puts me WAY deep into a minority faith).

I mean it would be rather silly of me to have gone on a 10-year spiritual journey, during which I explicitly did not give my allegiance to any faith tradition, but all the while reading, studying, and talking with people of all the world's traditions, and then making an explicit decision for the faith I choose to live out, to then go and PRETEND that I think all faith traditions are equal in their power to bless and elevate the human species. If I HONESTLY thought that I would have chosen a generic spirituality (or atheism) and left it at that.

No, I'm an advocate for my faith tradition, but at the same time I HONESTLY believe that they should all be on the table/in the public square, competing for our hearts and minds (and note that I include the atheistic and agnostic traditions that competition).

What I think is specifically distasteful and downright HARMFUL culturally and intellectually is the option of removing them all because we are offended by one, some, or all (be they majority or minority).

[Yellowdogtexan]

I posted this on the civil war.school prayer thread but it applies here also. I have seen the first hand results of what happens with the wall between the Church and the State is breached and people bring religion to school. Santa Fe Texas is a small suburb betwen Houston and Galveston that had a case taken to SCOTUS on school prayer. During that case, things got nasty. The lawsuit was brought by a catholic family and a mormon family (the sole Jewish family opted not to participate to try to avoid the expect backlash).

Here is one happen the one of the mormons. http://www.mormonstoday.com/000625/N1SchoolPrayer02.shtmlThe case was originally filed in 1995, in response to the way that the Mormon family, and a Catholic family that joined them in the suit, were treated by teachers and other students in the school district. Both families felt that their children had been discriminated against and harassed for belonging to a minority religion in the majority Southern Baptist town, according to Mormon News' analysis of news reports and contacts with those involved in the case.

Both families experienced a pattern of teachers and students promoting their religion at school. One junior high school teacher passed out fliers for a Baptist revival in class. Invitations to religious camps and other religious materials were handed out in the classroom. Teachers included denominational religious teachings in their lessons. Bibles were distributed in the schools by the Gideons. At lunch time, students were told to bow their heads and pray before eating.

The families soon discovered that religion was included in the school system's policies. At the time the original lawsuit was filed, the district had a written policy of designating a minister at the beginning of each school year who was to give invocations at school events, including not only football games and graduation, but school assemblies. The district court found that the school district had encouraged and preferred religion clubs over other clubs.

But the problem faced by the Mormon and Catholic families wasn't limited to simple promotion of a church. It included outright harassment of their children, simply because they weren't part of the dominant church. When one of the children in the Mormon family questioned a teacher's promotion of a revival, the teacher asked the student what religion she belonged to. When told that the child was Mormon, the teacher launched into an attack on Mormonism, calling it a "non-Christian cult," saying it was of the devil, and telling the child that she was going to hell. The court also heard 'uncontradicted' evidence that students who declined to accept Bibles or objected to prayers and religious observances in school were verbally harassed. The sole Jewish family did not join the suit but that did not stop the religious zealots from targeting the sole Jewish child in the school district. http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/000721/prayer.shtmlPreparing for a bar mitzvah is something to shout out to the world: "I'm going to be a man soon."

But doing so in the small town of Santa Fe, Texas, may come with a price for 13-year-old Philip Nevelow, whose life has been made miserable for nearly two years since schoolmates learned he is Jewish.

Philip has been harassed, beaten and threatened, according to his mother, Donna Nevelow, since students at Santa Fe Junior High School overheard the youth tell a teacher that he was beginning bar mitzvah preparation....

"We did not have any problems until this court case," Donna Nevelow said. Since then, she said, Philip has been called a "dirty Jew;" had swastikas drawn on his books; was slammed into his locker; was cornered in a schoolyard and told "Hitler missed one"; and more recently, was threatened by classmates with hanging.

Two students were arrested for making threats, but there is no hate-crimes law for juvenile offenders in Texas.In addition, the daughter of one my friends and board members at the Temple was targeted by a school club at a different school district on the other side of Houston for conversion to christianity. These kids believed that the conversion of the Jews to christianity was necessary to bring the second coming of jesus and that this young lady's refusal to convert was denying them the second coming of Jesus. The matter was fixed quickly with a visit to the school by the ADL.

The separation of church and state serves an important function. If religion is allowed in the schools, then the majority gets to try to force their religious views on the minority. The FIRST AMENDMENT is to protect the rights of the minorities.

I strongly support the FIRST AMENDMENT. I have seen what happens when religion is allowed in schools to the rights of the minorities.

[Viki]

To Look and Learn: if human history proves anything it's that what we think we know has to passed on again, again, and again and, also, that we think we know has to be available for testing and improvement. In my faith tradition, at least, we pray on a regular basis that God would keep what is true, fix what is broken, and weed out what is wrong. Good scientific method and great common sense.

To Patriotsblade: No doubt many other instances of the abuse of religion, from all different perspectives could be told (I'm thinking right now of all the Christians who are regularly the victims of the State religion in many Islamic countries), but this is one area where I am not a protectionist. I won't throw out the baby with the bathwater. The faith by which we find meaning as individuals and a species is too important a topic to be surrendered because some will be the casualties of the conversation.

[bluedog]

I posted this on the civil war.school prayer thread but it applies here also. I have seen the first hand results of what happens with the wall between the Church and the State is breached and people bring religion to school. Santa Fe Texas is a small suburb betwen Houston and Galveston that had a case taken to SCOTUS on school prayer. During that case, things got nasty. The lawsuit was brought by a catholic family and a mormon family (the sole Jewish family opted not to participate to try to avoid the expect backlash).

Here is one happen the one of the mormons. http://www.mormonstoday.com/000625/N1SchoolPrayer02.shtmlThe sole Jewish family did not join the suit but that did not stop the religious zealots from targeting the sole Jewish child in the school district. http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/000721/prayer.shtmlIn addition, the daughter of one my friends and board members at the Temple was targeted by a school club at a different school district on the other side of Houston for conversion to christianity. These kids believed that the conversion of the Jews to christianity was necessary to bring the second coming of jesus and that this young lady's refusal to convert was denying them the second coming of Jesus. The matter was fixed quickly with a visit to the school by the ADL.

The separation of church and state serves an important function. If religion is allowed in the schools, then the majority gets to try to force their religious views on the minority. The FIRST AMENDMENT is to protect the rights of the minorities.

I strongly support the FIRST AMENDMENT. I have seen what happens when religion is allowed in schools to the rights of the minorities.

I I find it amusing that this observation was never apparent before the communist and the ACLU told us so.....for the first hundred and fifty or so years before this "wall" was erected by judicial "opinion" we never seemed to have a problem with the "church" assuming control of our government....and right after this opined wall was constructed...many other "breaches" of our civil rights were pointed out....and rights sacrificed at the alter of judicial opinion...basing their opinion on the first "unconstitutional" opining of Judge Black.....a card carrying member of the American Communist Lawyer Union is not hard to point out....as they are always ready to take another right away, by protecting our civil liberties......Statement No. 16 in their list of Goals of a mission statement entered into the congressional record in 1963....."USE TECHNICAL DECISIONS OF THE COURTS TO WEAKEN BASIC AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS BY CLAIMING THEIR ACTIVITIES VIOLATE CIVIL RIGHTS"....in fact just what is the difference between the ACLU and the communist?......www.stoptheaclu.org

[Trueblue]

Good point and I try to be honest (as I was in my post, contra Look and Learn's fears that I was giving into some secular relativism "all gods are equal" treatment) that I HONESTLY believe that the God of Jesus Christ, as that God is evidenced in a faith born of unconditional forgiveness and limitless freedom) is the best God humanity has ever encountered (note that my definition of the God of Jesus Christ would exclude most brands of evangelical Christianity, which, in my view are more Pharisaical than anything else, which, believe me, puts me WAY deep into a minority faith).

I mean it would be rather silly of me to have gone on a 10-year spiritual journey, during which I explicitly did not give my allegiance to any faith tradition, but all the while reading, studying, and talking with people of all the world's traditions, and then making an explicit decision for the faith I choose to live out, to then go and PRETEND that I think all faith traditions are equal in their power to bless and elevate the human species. If I HONESTLY thought that I would have chosen a generic spirituality (or atheism) and left it at that.

No, I'm an advocate for my faith tradition, but at the same time I HONESTLY believe that they should all be on the table/in the public square, competing for our hearts and minds (and note that I include the atheistic and agnostic traditions that competition).

What I think is specifically distasteful and downright HARMFUL culturally and intellectually is the option of removing them all because we are offended by one, some, or all (be they majority or minority).

Your explanation of your journey is so beautifully written.

[Viki]

Your explanation of your journey is so beautifully written.

Thank you!:aww