So you want government healthcare?

[Capitalist]

Read the below links and tell me you think it will work here?

Canada has only 33 million people and Ireland has only 5 million.

Do any of you think it can be made to work with 300+ million people inthe system?




http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006813

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=b9824724-195d-4c8e-b0f6-15be220f7b54

http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2003/04/health.html

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/173/11/1308-a

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=18276

http://www.dohc.ie/press/releases/2001/20011126.html

http://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/our_policies/energy/health_reform/

[Kurtz]

Might be a good idea to watch the State of Massachusetts to see
how it works there 'n make revisions to apply it on a national level.


I hate to think anyone thinks something is written and applied perfectly the first go
round, hell, if that was the case Americans would still own slaves and women. :lol

[Capitalist]

Might be a good idea to watch the State of Massachusetts to see
how it works there 'n make revisions to apply it on a national level.


I hate to think anyone thinks something is written and applied perfectly the first go
round, hell, if that was the case Americans would still own slaves and women. :lol

Sorry but what mass is doing is not a songle payer system the likes of Canada and Ireland.

These same waiting lists are problems in EVERY nation with it.

[Kurtz]

Sorry but what mass is doing is not a songle payer system the likes of Canada and Ireland.

These same waiting lists are problems in EVERY nation with it.

Waiting lists are a FACT of Life in EVERYTHING, where do you live? :lol

[Saguaro]

I would like to have the kind of healthcare that Congress gives to itself !

[Kurtz]

I would like to have the kind of healthcare that Congress gives to itself !

FOR REAL!

[Capitalist]

Waiting lists are a FACT of Life in EVERYTHING, where do you live? :lol

When I needed an MRI on my knee I waited a week, because I could not make time in MY schedule sooner. I could have had it the next day. When I schedualed my knee sugery, I waited a month, because that is what I wanted. I could have had it in a week if I wanted to.

Look up how long you have to wait in 'free' medical care counbtries for something that simple.

It is a mistake to do but you leftist only care about buying votes with other peoples money.

[Saguaro]

:lmao

[Kurtz]

When I needed an MRI on my knee I waited a week, because I could not make time in MY schedule sooner. I could have had it the next day. When I schedualed my knee sugery, I waited a month, because that is what I wanted. I could have had it in a week if I wanted to.

Look up how long you have to wait in 'free' medical care counbtries for something that simple.

It is a mistake to do but you leftist only care about buying votes with other peoples money.


Let's not compare what WE could have to what other countries have, let's get what America used to have 'n be before this idiot took office, the BEST! We can do better!

If our workforce is not healthy, where are we?

[Yellowdogtexan]

First what is being discussed by the Democrats is socialized insurance and not medicine. The use of sociaize medicine is simply ignorant and shows that cappy does not understand the issue. Having a single payor does not mean that we have socialized medicine because the doctors, hospitals and the like will not become direct governmental employees.

Here as some fact that cappy should consider. The cost of overhead for medicare and medicaid is bout 3% while the cost of overhead for private pay insurance is over 20% to 25%. The use of multiple payors in the current system is extemely watseful and inefficient.

[Kurtz]

First what is being discussed by the Democrats is socialized insurance and not medicine. The use of sociaize medicine is simply ignorant and shows that cappy does not understand the issue. Having a single payor does not mean that we have socialized medicine because the doctors, hospitals and the like will not become direct governmental employees.

Here as some fact that cappy should consider. The cost of overhead for medicare and medicaid is bout 3% while the cost of overhead for private pay insurance is over 20% to 25%. The use of multiple payors in the current system is extemely wasteful and inefficient.

:werd

[Capitalist]

Let's not compare what WE could have to what other countries have, let's get what America used to have 'n be before this idiot took office, the BEST! We can do better!

If our workforce is not healthy, where are we?

So your assertion is that the cost of medical care is the fault of Bush?

It has simply increased year over year at about the same rate it has since the 70's.

The reason healthcare is expensive is because of the government not in spite of it.

[Capitalist]

I would like to have the kind of healthcare that Congress gives to itself !

Yeah, but you don't want to pay for it yourself, do you.

[Kurtz]

So your assertion is that the cost of medical care is the fault of Bush?

It has simply increased year over year at about the same rate it has since the 70's.

The reason healthcare is expensive is because of the government not in spite of it.

The whole country started goin' to Hell with Reagan.
bush has just "capitalized" on it. :lol
Healthcare is expensive because of the moneygrubbers like bush.

I would like to have the kind of healthcare that Congress gives to itself !

Yeah, but you don't want to pay for it yourself, do you.

We should have the same healthcare as Congress because WE pay for THEIRS!

[toxic]

Read the below links and tell me you think it will work here?

Canada has only 33 million people and Ireland has only 5 million.

Do any of you think it can be made to work with 300+ million people inthe system?

...

It doesn't matter.

It has nothing to do with what the public wants.

We are going to get government Healthcare because the CEO Roundtable wants to off-burden underfunded corporate healthcare promises onto the American taxpayer.

[issac the dragon]

I am not embarassed to say it. I'm for socialized medicine. We need to create our own. Not copy some other country. Business is behind it, the middle class is behind it, and so are the eldery. They feel a lot of sympathy for those who are unable to get the care they do.

[Saguaro]

Yeah, but you don't want to pay for it yourself, do you.

You know everything don't you ?

NOT

[Capitalist]

The whole country started goin' to Hell with Reagan.
bush has just "capitalized" on it. :lol
Healthcare is expensive because of the moneygrubbers like bush.





We should have the same healthcare as Congress because WE pay for THEIRS!

Specifically how does republican policy cause healthcare costs to increase?

Surely you don't say this without any idea how that happens?

I must assume that ti did not increase a much during Clintons years?

[Capitalist]

It doesn't matter.

It has nothing to do with what the public wants.

We are going to get government Healthcare because the CEO Roundtable wants to off-burden underfunded corporate healthcare promises onto the American taxpayer.

We will not get it unless we want to have the same shitty healthcare system as canada and Europe.

It is interesting that they come here for healthcare they can't get or can't afford to wait for there.

[Capitalist]

I am not embarassed to say it. I'm for socialized medicine. We need to create our own. Not copy some other country. Business is behind it, the middle class is behind it, and so are the eldery. They feel a lot of sympathy for those who are unable to get the care they do.


I feel sympathy as well. But we need saftey nets for those who cannot afford not one size fits all.

If you actually read those links you would see one re-occuring theme. One reason for the waits is that there are not enough Doctors nurses and skilled care providers to meet the demand.

The reason for that is because it is 'free' it is over used. because it is free the budget is limited and so is the income of the provider. That means many people who would have gone into the field are now going into other careers, or to the US to be doctors. Ever wonder why we have so many doctors from other countries living here....

So when the best and brightest go into other fields, what do we do then.

If they can't even make it work for a population 98% smaller than ours how the fuck are they going to make it work here?

[Capitalist]

You know everything don't you ?

NOT

Nevedr have claimed that, but it seems you can't refute what I say, can you?

[cassandra]

The whole country started goin' to Hell with Reagan.
bush has just "capitalized" on it. :lol
Healthcare is expensive because of the moneygrubbers like bush.

We should have the same healthcare as Congress because WE pay for THEIRS!

Life isn't fair darling. People get what they work for. The healthcare that is offered to Congress is available to you as well if you are qualified and want the job. Work for the things you want in life. It will get you farther than sitting around complaining you don't have what others have.

(BTW the you used above is just a general you.)

Healthcare is expensive because it is expensive. Doctors are well trained professionals that should be able to charge for their services.

[Kurtz]

:lmao
Another funny thread.
I love this place! :heart

[Saguaro]

Nevedr have claimed that, but it seems you can't refute what I say, can you?

I don't need to

[issac the dragon]

Why is it that doctors in other countries don't have to be so well paid? In England they are just middle class. When did American doctors decide that they have the right to be paid millions?

[Saguaro]

The cost of college and medical school is outrageous in the US.I have no idea what it is in other countries

[Saguaro]

Medical school can be expensive and therefore, it would be beneficial to consider the cost of med school before applying.
A. The average tuition for the first year is $25,000. Additionally, there are fees for books, housing, meals, student fees, traveling, etc. Public Schools are about $10,000 if you’re an in state student. Out of state students can expect to pay well over $22,000 for a public medical school.
Many students take out loans to pay for medical school but end up in debt after graduation. Others join the US military in exchange for tuition.

[VRWC]

Medical school can be expensive and therefore, it would be beneficial to consider the cost of med school before applying.
A. The average tuition for the first year is $25,000. Additionally, there are fees for books, housing, meals, student fees, traveling, etc. Public Schools are about $10,000 if you’re an in state student. Out of state students can expect to pay well over $22,000 for a public medical school.
Many students take out loans to pay for medical school but end up in debt after graduation. Others join the US military in exchange for tuition.

That is extremely important information to have when questioning why doctors charge so much. MAJOR debt is a byproduct of med school. It is their choice to go, but they also have to pay bills. Some people just want everything for free and everyone else be damned. I say let em charge what they want and let the market sort it out.

[Cookie Parker]

Life isn't fair darling. People get what they work for. The healthcare that is offered to Congress is available to you as well if you are qualified and want the job. Work for the things you want in life. It will get you farther than sitting around complaining you don't have what others have.

(BTW the you used above is just a general you.)

Healthcare is expensive because it is expensive. Doctors are well trained professionals that should be able to charge for their services.

Please...they are corporations or incorporated..they have portfolios filled with drug company stocks and they are overcharging for the expensive technical equpment to make sure you get every test they want you to have to pay for it because it looks good in advertising their services.

We have corporations and for profit medicine and we are the biggest losers in the free world because of it...

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cont/node/2754

he U.S. spends more on medical care than any other nation, and gets far less for it than many countries. According to the 2006 analysis by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the U.S. spends an annual $6,102 per person — more than any other country and more than twice the average of $2,571. Yet Americans have the 22nd highest life expectancy among those nations at 77.2 years compared with the analysis' average of 77.8 years. People in Japan, the world leader in longevity, live an average of 81.8 years." – Los Angeles Times

Yes we have some of the latest innovations and are the envy of the world in certain medical procedures, but the net impact is not translated into better health for the American public. European nations and Japan are much more effective at lower cost than our patched together system of for profit health care. If you have enough money you can afford the premium care procedures and travel to the institutions that offer them. The vast majority of Americans cannot afford this level of care and instead must accept what their insurer will pay for.

Under our system, if you do not have health insurance you are left to the care of the emergency room unless you are poor enough to qualify for Medicaid. That means the most cost effective health care – prevention, is not available to those who need it most. Even those with coverage are finding they often must trade health care costs for food and living costs. Premium costs alone often costs over $500 per month for a family of four.

Add to this the steeply increasing cost of prescription medicines and the picture for most Americans is getting worse every year. While the percentage of people without health insurance edges upward slowly, the actual number increases more rapidly. Add to this that the effectiveness of insurance has dramatically dropped with higher co-pays, deductibles and exclusions, and our system is failing the grade.

Part of the problem is that our system has unacceptably high costs of administration. On average, insurers allocate over 25% of their premium income to administration. This compares with rates in the single digits in most other major systems. Another part of the problem is that American health care providers have failed to enter the digital age, meaning there is a level of inefficiency built into the system that is correctable.

For many of us, coverage is not there when we really need it. Blue Cross was recently sanctioned in California for illegally terminating insurance coverage when people actually used their policy for major illnesses. One of the complaints about European-style systems is that they end up rationing health care and exclude certain coverage. But that is what happens in private insurance as well, so it is not a matter of rationing but who does the selecting.

Still think for profit health care is the way to go...or for profit wars?

[Capitalist]

Why is it that doctors in other countries don't have to be so well paid? In England they are just middle class. When did American doctors decide that they have the right to be paid millions?

Why do you think we should decide they are not?

See we are what you call a free society. Doctors have a skill and they should be allowed to charge whatever they can get.

They have no RIGHT to millions just like you have no right to determine what they charge other than deciding not to use their services if they charge too much.

Your socialism is showing here.

Another thing you might ponder. Why do you think that we have so many foreign doctors here in the US.

Could it be because they don't want to be 'middle class' by government decree?

Now ponder what will the best and brightest do for a career after you socialist decide they can't get rich being a doctor?

What happens to our healthcare system when those guys decide to get MBA's instead of PHD's?

[Capitalist]

Please...they are corporations or incorporated..they have portfolios filled with drug company stocks and they are overcharging for the expensive technical equpment to make sure you get every test they want you to have to pay for it because it looks good in advertising their services.

We have corporations and for profit medicine and we are the biggest losers in the free world because of it...

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cont/node/2754



Still think for profit health care is the way to go...or for profit wars?


With every post you prove your a socialist.

[sparks]

Why do you think we should decide they are not?

See we are what you call a free society. Doctors have a skill and they should be allowed to charge whatever they can get.

They have no RIGHT to millions just like you have no right to determine what they charge other than deciding not to use their services if they charge too much.

Your socialism is showing here.

Another thing you might ponder. Why do you think that we have so many foreign doctors here in the US.

Could it be because they don't want to be 'middle class' by government decree?

Now ponder what will the best and brightest do for a career after you socialist decide they can't get rich being a doctor?

What happens to our healthcare system when those guys decide to get MBA's instead of PHD's?


What is your hang-up about calling everyone who isn't a neo-con a socialist?

[Capitalist]

What is your hang-up about calling everyone who isn't a neo-con a socialist?

People who support the government taking over large portions of hte economy through out right socialization and through regulation are socialist.

People who want to have the government provide everything everyone needs are socialist.

Hell I am no neo-con. That is a madeup prejorative anyway.

I am an objectivist, I just have no choice but to vote for the republicans.

[sparks]

People who support the government taking over large portions of hte economy through out right socialization and through regulation are socialist.

People who want to have the government provide everything everyone needs are socialist.

Hell I am no neo-con. That is a madeup prejorative anyway.

I am an objectivist, I just have no choice but to vote for the republicans.

Oh gheeze! :roll

[toxic]

Why is it that doctors in other countries don't have to be so well paid? In England they are just middle class. When did American doctors decide that they have the right to be paid millions?


Doctors in th USA have the strongest UNION (AMA) in the world. You can't get educated, a license or a job, without their approval.

Capitalist, hates UNIONS ... Unions for working class people that is.

A good doctor friend of mine thinks he has it bad, because he pays $50K in insurance each year. BUT that is only 8.3% of his $600,000 annual income.

That income is not for his own practice and accompanying overhead, he works in an Hospital Emergency Room and is on salary.

The insurance industry is in bed with doctors too. If they wanted you to scrutinize your doctor's prices, they would give you the money and let you keep what you could save. The insurance company's cut of the action gets bigger when your bills get bigger. They like it.

[Capitalist]

Oh gheeze! :roll

There is nothing in the dem platform that intersects with objectivism and only about 50% for the republicans.

But dems 0 repubs 50 easy choice for me.

[Capitalist]

Doctors in th USA have the strongest UNION (AMA) in the world. You can't get educated, a license or a job, without their approval.

Capitalist, hates UNIONS ... Unions for working class people that is.

A good doctor friend of mine thinks he has it bad, because he pays $50K in insurance each year. BUT that is only 8.3% of his $600,000 annual income.

That income is not for his own practice and accompanying overhead, he works in an Hospital Emergency Room and is on salary.

The insurance industry is in bed with doctors too. If they wanted you to scrutinize your doctor's prices, they would give you the money and let you keep what you could save. The insurance company's cut of the action gets bigger when your bills get bigger. They like it.

So does this 'union' lead strike actions? Do collective bargining?

It is called a professional association.

Do you have a problem with your friend making 600k a year?

[biker]

Just as a thought: Were in the federal constitution does it say that it is the government's responsibility to pay for our health care? If it is, then should the government also have the right to decide our life style choices because of the possible cost of those choices? That is something to think about. On a side bar. The wealthy or well connected have always been able to get what they want no matter what type of government has been in power. To me this is all smoke and mirrors to hide the real problems with the US.

[issac the dragon]

Where in the constitution does it say the government has the right to read my emails, listen to my call, decide who I can marry, or tell me I have to pay taxes to religious groups of their choice? Those things go on every day, and most Republicans are in favor of them Even want to change the constitution to enforce them. Get off my back with the 'where in the constitution does it say that.' The only thing in the constitution that conservatives support is the right to bear arms. The better to violate the constitiutional rights of the rest of us.

[Capitalist]

Where in the constitution does it say the government has the right to read my emails, listen to my call, decide who I can marry, or tell me I have to pay taxes to religious groups of their choice? Those things go on every day, and most Republicans are in favor of them Even want to change the constitution to enforce them. Get off my back with the 'where in the constitution does it say that.' The only thing in the constitution that conservatives support is the right to bear arms. The better to violate the constitiutional rights of the rest of us.

So the gov't has read your e-mails and listened in on your calls? Really?

I have to pay taxes to support bullshit art and organizations like the ACLU operation rainbow/push etc... were even.

Sorry but I support all of the constitution, even the parts I don't like.

Unlike you leftist who only fall back on it when it suits you.

The second is there to assure the rest is followed.

Man you guys really don't like it when I talk about the constitution. Especially since I bet you have never read the whole thing and especially since you know damn well the socialist agenda is inherently unconstitutional.

[Capitalist]

Where in the constitution does it say the government has the right to

read my emails,

listen to my call

Says this in the preamble - Provide for the common defence. See believe it or not the bad guys use e-mail and phones to help them commit crimes. Tell me, the dems have had almost a year to reverse this. Don't hold your breath for them to do this.

decide who I can marry

It makes no mention of marriage. This is a state issue, any state that wishes to can make homo marriage legal. Why do you need that particular right yourself? (not that there is anything wrong with that).

pay taxes to religious groups of their choice?

So show me where any person is paying taxes to any church and is compelled to do so?

[biker]

Where in the constitution does it say the government has the right to read my emails, listen to my call, decide who I can marry, or tell me I have to pay taxes to religious groups of their choice? Those things go on every day, and most Republicans are in favor of them Even want to change the constitution to enforce them. Get off my back with the 'where in the constitution does it say that.' The only thing in the constitution that conservatives support is the right to bear arms. The better to violate the constitiutional rights of the rest of us.

The Federal government can read your emails with a warrant which is part of the due process clause. I still think the patriot act is one of the most unconstitutional laws ever passed. It has support from both Dems and Reps. The second amendment is to insure that the government rules by the choice of the people not by their fear.

[toxic]

So does this 'union' lead strike actions? Do collective bargining?

They don't need to. They simply limit supply and access, then let the supply-demand curve take care of the rest.

It is called a professional association.?

I don't care if other people have Unions, as long as I can have one too. The AMA is stronger than any other Professional association I know of.

Do you have a problem with your friend making 600k a year?

Yes, the pisshead isn't worth $600K, nor is any doctor I have had to date. Plus, they get people like you to feel sorry for them for only making $600K.


Ronald Reagan was a Union (Screen Actors Guild) leader that did do collective barganining. Then became a Union breaker when President. Too bad Hinkley didn't own a .380.

[Wabash]

When I needed an MRI on my knee I waited a week, because I could not make time in MY schedule sooner. I could have had it the next day. When I schedualed my knee sugery, I waited a month, because that is what I wanted. I could have had it in a week if I wanted to.

Look up how long you have to wait in 'free' medical care counbtries for something that simple.

It is a mistake to do but you leftist only care about buying votes with other peoples money.

You got it!

Let's not compare what WE could have to what other countries have, let's get what America used to have 'n be before this idiot took office, the BEST! We can do better!

If our workforce is not healthy, where are we?

What we used to have was no better before Bush.
What we used to have prior to the 60s or so, was everyone take care of themselves and leave the Govt. and Business out of it!
The Govt. has NO business providing Health Care for anyone! If a company wants to, that's there business!

[Trueblue]

Says this in the preamble - Provide for the common defence. See believe it or not the bad guys use e-mail and phones to help them commit crimes. Tell me, the dems have had almost a year to reverse this. Don't hold your breath for them to do this.

This could be used to excuse any kind of search, but it still wouldn't make it right.

[AYFR]

Healthcare needs to be fixed but socializing it is not the answer.

You want to let the government that broke Social Security, Medicare and other programs control your health?

[issac the dragon]

I disagree. It is the only answer. And the solution to the doctors thinking they are little gods. If fact, I heard it was so bad that god has started thinking he is a doctor.

[AYFR]

I disagree. It is the only answer. And the solution to the doctors thinking they are little gods. If fact, I heard it was so bad that god has started thinking he is a doctor.
I disagree with it being the only solution. There is ALWAYS more then one way to do something.