A few thoughts on prayer in schools

[TrueBlue]

"Americans are being denied the right to express their religious speech in the public square." Ralph Reed, Christian Coalition.

"Public schools can neither foster religion nor preclude it. Our public schools must treat religion with fairness and respect and vigorously protect religious expression as well as the freedom of conscience of all other students. In so doing our public schools reaffirm the First Amendment and enrich the lives of their students". Secretary of Education Richard W. Riley June 1998

"A Congress that allows God to be banned from our schools while our schools can teach about cults, Hitler and even devil worship is wrong, out of touch, and needs some common sense." Rep. James Traficant, (D-OH) 1999-APR-27.

"There is no such source and cause of strife, quarrel, fights, malignant opposition, persecution, and war, and all evil in the state, as religion. Let it once enter our civil affairs, our government would soon be destroyed. Let it once enter our common schools, they would be destroyed." Supreme Court of Wisconsin, Weiss v. District Board, 1890-MAR-18.

"A union of government and religion tends to destroy government and degrade religion." Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black, Engel v. Vitale, (1962)

"School sponsorship of a religious message is impermissible because it sends the ancillary message to members of the audience who are nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community. " U.S. Supreme Court ruling, Santa Fe v. Doe, (2000).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ps_pray.htm

I am opposed to teacher led or directed prayer in public schools. I cannot imagine that it would cause anything but fights and strife.

[Indy]

I agree that it would cause a lot of controversy. If I were a public school teacher (which I used to be), I wouldn't want the headache. It is hard enough teaching the entire class to read and write. They can pray on their own time with their parents.

[Indy]

I just want to add that I think if the kids take it upon themselves to pray, that is fine.

[TrueBlue]

I have been with kids who were upset, and I wanted to ask them if they wanted to pray-but I can't do that, but sometimes I wonder if that means that I put the USC before my religion. :twitch

[Indy]

No, it doesn't mean that, Sat. It means that you are following the law.

[Indy]

The Bible talks about following the laws of the land, right?

[Semantics]

I am opposed to prayer in public schools. What if the teacher were a Hindu or a Wiccan? I doubt parents of other religions would want their children praying with those teachers, and the same goes for Christianity.

[Incognito]

I think it should be up to the kids. If a child wishes to pray to himself before lunch or whatever, I don;t think someone should tell him he can't.

[shithouselawyer]

I think it should be up to the kids. If a child wishes to pray to himself before lunch or whatever, I don;t think someone should tell him he can't.

Chime in on the Ms Dependant. They don't stop children from praying before a meal, right?

[Sweet Tart]

What if the teacher was Pagan and encouraged the kids? What sort of controversy would that create? If they allow prayer in school, there's no way to water it down so that its appropriate for any religion... or the lack thereof.

There's no logical way to do it and be fair to everyone's beliefs.

[Indy]

Chime in on the Ms Dependant. They don't stop children from praying before a meal, right?

No, to my knowledge, they don't stop the kids from praying if it is of their own free will. :shrug

I don't see a problem with that. I think the main issue is somebody who pushes their religion on the kids.

[moudyp]

I am a teacher of 34 years in the public schools and "no" I will never lead a class in prayer! It is called Separation of Church and State which our forefathers worked dilligently to create. Now, that is not to say that I don't pray all day..."Please dear God, let me just make it through this day without smacking this smart alec kid!" I have many more prayers in the same context! We have religious schools for those parents who are adament about praying in school.

[Sofa King]

Not allowing teacher directed prayer is completly different than not allowing prayer. The teacher should not be DIRECTING prayer, but learning about various religions and their beliefs, customs and traditions as being taught by the teachers, is ok by me. In fact, I think it should be MANDATORY. If taught with interest and respect and embracing all the diversity our world has, perhaps.....perhaps our next generation won't be so filled with hate of the unknown as generations past.

I also think that morals ...and basic tenants of right and wrong should be a part of the schools. Not a class just on morals, but a basic thread that runs thru the fiber of schools... It doesn't have to be phrased in a religious way, but more of a way to be a good person. kwim?

[cassandra]

I am opposed to children being led in prayer in a public school setting. I am a Christian and was a school teacher. I would have not been able to pray with children in other religions. I believe strongly in the separation of church and state. As someone stated there are private schools in every sect of religion if that is what a parent is after.

[Ariel]

I think prayer is a very individual thing. You do not have to have, say, a "prayer time" to be able to pray. If I pray, it should not effect the person beside me. Just as if someone beside me is doing something from their religion, then so be it, I do not have to participate.

[Kurtz]

I am opposed to prayer in public schools. What if the teacher were a Hindu or a Wiccan? I doubt parents of other religions would want their children praying with those teachers, and the same goes for Christianity.

This is such a great point. Most times when proponents of school prayer are complaining they want prayer back in the schools this point never occurs to them, probably because those religions are wrong. :whistle

[TrueBlue]

I want to know if those who want prayer in schools have devotionals at home during the summer break.

[Kurtz]

I want to know if those who want prayer in schools have devotionals at home during the summer break.

:lmao My apologies if you were serious.

[TrueBlue]

:lmao My apologies if you were serious.

Kind of both serious and joking. There are more people who say that they want prayer in schools than there are in church on Sundays.

Why would that be, unless it's a case of....hypocrisy. :eek

[Phoenix]

I am opposed to prayer in public schools. What if the teacher were a Hindu or a Wiccan? I doubt parents of other religions would want their children praying with those teachers, and the same goes for Christianity.

That reminds me...

Here in CA... in 7th grade Islam is taught in social studies. My son had to memorize parts of the Koran and the tenants of Islam. Other school districts go so far as to make them pray to Allah and choose Muslim names and practice a jihad.

Apparently each district or teacher can decide just how far they take the study. Personally... I think praying to Allah is crossing a line. I am not comfortable with the jihad thing, and see no good reason to pick a different name. How would other religions feel about their kids being forced to memorize the 10 commandments? To me that is about the same thing as memorizing the tenants of Islam. :shrug I think this should be covered just as loosely as Christianity is in 4th grade.

[cassandra]

Here in the school district I used to teach in all religions are taught in the first grade. The students are given general information on each religion. Never are they expect to pray to or idolize any of the religions.

FYI we used the Core Knowledge Curriculum. This is the same curriculum that the What your such and such grader needs to know.

[Knight'sWife]

That reminds me...

Here in CA... in 7th grade Islam is taught in social studies. My son had to memorize parts of the Koran and the tenants of Islam. Other school districts go so far as to make them pray to Allah and choose Muslim names and practice a jihad.




I would never be Ok with this...
This is religion...
Somehow I feel that this is almost trying to convert our children.
I would not force my Christian beliefs on another child of a different faith.
Why should this view be forced upon my child?

I am OK with no prayer in school. My kids can say their prayers quietly. But I also feel that if a child wants to pray he/she should not be denied. This is part of our freedoms.

[TrueBlue]

That reminds me...

Here in CA... in 7th grade Islam is taught in social studies. My son had to memorize parts of the Koran and the tenants of Islam. Other school districts go so far as to make them pray to Allah and choose Muslim names and practice a jihad.

Apparently each district or teacher can decide just how far they take the study. Personally... I think praying to Allah is crossing a line. I am not comfortable with the jihad thing, and see no good reason to pick a different name. How would other religions feel about their kids being forced to memorize the 10 commandments? To me that is about the same thing as memorizing the tenants of Islam. :shrug I think this should be covered just as loosely as Christianity is in 4th grade.

Can you show me any board policy or curriculum standard that supports this?

It makes no sense to me to carry this so far.

[Phoenix]

There is a lot out there about it. Just google it.

[TrueBlue]

There is a lot out there about it. Just google it.

I don't want any old trash on the internet, I want to know how the system justifies teaching in this way. This must have been in the newspapers, give us a little guidance in finding out more about this, because it is outrageous.

[Kitka]

There is a lot out there about it. Just google it.

The only reports of this are on conservative political websites with no sources quoted and no specific school district mentioned. It seems to be just a rumor.

[Phoenix]

My original post has my personal experience with the issue. The most extreme cases involving visiting mosques and forced prayer were in San Francisco.

It's no rumor.

[Kitka]

Okay, I just googled San Francisco specifically and it is one 7th grade program that is talked about repeatedly as being 'California schools'... and the program was that for 3 weeks they adopted Islamic names, learned about the culture, learned passages of the Koran, and then in the end were to write a report critiquing what they learned and experienced. Hardly indoctrination - we adopted hispanic names in Spanish class and did a similar cultural immersion program in high school... and learning passages of the Koran is hardly forced prayer. I would have no problem with that, or with passages of the bible being taught in a historical and cultural unit on Christianity.

I have no problem with education of religious cultures - Christian or otherwise. I think ignorance of diverse religious traditions of others is one of the biggest problems in the US.

[Knight'sWife]

Okay, I just googled San Francisco specifically and it is one 7th grade program that is talked about repeatedly as being 'California schools'... and the program was that for 3 weeks they adopted Islamic names, learned about the culture, learned passages of the Koran, and then in the end were to write a report critiquing what they learned and experienced. Hardly indoctrination - we adopted hispanic names in Spanish class and did a similar cultural immersion program in high school... and learning passages of the Koran is hardly forced prayer. I would have no problem with that, or with passages of the bible being taught in a historical and cultural unit on Christianity.

I have no problem with education of religious cultures - Christian or otherwise. I think ignorance of diverse religious traditions of others is one of the biggest problems in the US.


But let them try to teach even the 10 commandments in a historical way and all hell will break loose.:devil :devil :devil
It is better to keep all religion away from the schools. Teach only the fact...I do not believe in the immersion way....

[Kurtz]

But let them try to teach even the 10 commandments in a historical way and all hell will break loose.:devil :devil :devil
It is better to keep all religion away from the schools. Teach only the fact...I do not believe in the immersion way....
I think they should teach a basic religions class to those of high school age, exposing students to the fact that lots of religious beliefs exist, but not that any of them are necessarily true. Then maybe they could grow up, vote and get the religions out of our government.

[Kitka]

But let them try to teach even the 10 commandments in a historical way and all hell will break loose.:devil :devil :devil
It is better to keep all religion away from the schools. Teach only the fact...I do not believe in the immersion way....

I don't think that teaching the 10 commandments in a historcal and cultural context could be a bad thing - I mean, it's a part of the historical evolution of societal codes.

I can understand hesistation in bringing religion into schools at all, but I do think it's sad that that would be to happen because people can't abide by their children being educated in the world...

[cassandra]

I think that it is an interesting study of cultures. I enjoyed teaching it when I did and I know that the kids learned tollerance.

[Doc]

I think that it is an interesting study of cultures. I enjoyed teaching it when I did and I know that the kids learned tollerance.

Did they learn why intollerance for the intollerable is vital for their survival? Tollerance for the intollerable is disgusting, as well as unacceptable.

As far as intelligence and education goes we have regressed rather as progressed and this can be seen beginning in 1947 and speeding up in 1963 to present by the inherent decay and decadence of our society. Our distinct Christian heritage is not even taught. History has been re-written to suit the globalists agenda.

[Kitka]

History has been re-written to suit the globalists agenda.

Finally! :)