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AnnEsthesia
07-22-2007, 09:12 AM
CityWatcher.com, a provider of surveillance equipment, attracted little notice itself _ until a year ago, when two of its employees had glass-encapsulated microchips with miniature antennas embedded in their arms.

The "chipping" of two workers with RFIDs _ radio frequency identification tags as long as two grains of rice, as thick as a toothpick _ was merely a way of restricting access to vaults that held sensitive data and images for police departments, a layer of security beyond key cards and clearance codes, the company said.

"To protect high-end secure data, you use more sophisticated techniques," Sean Darks, chief executive of the Cincinnati-based company, said. He compared chip implants to retina scans or fingerprinting. "There's a reader outside the door; you walk up to the reader, put your arm under it, and it opens the door."

Innocuous? Maybe.

But the news that Americans had, for the first time, been injected with electronic identifiers to perform their jobs fired up a debate over the proliferation of ever-more-precise tracking technologies and their ability to erode privacy in the digital age.

To some, the microchip was a wondrous invention _ a high-tech helper that could increase security at nuclear plants and military bases, help authorities identify wandering Alzheimer's patients, allow consumers to buy their groceries, literally, with the wave of a chipped hand.

To others, the notion of tagging people was Orwellian, a departure from centuries of history and tradition in which people had the right to go and do as they pleased, without being tracked, unless they were harming someone else.

Chipping, these critics said, might start with Alzheimer's patients or Army Rangers, but would eventually be suggested for convicts, then parolees, then sex offenders, then illegal aliens _ until one day, a majority of Americans, falling into one category or another, would find themselves electronically tagged.

The concept of making all things traceable isn't alien to Americans. Thirty years ago, the first electronic tags were fixed to the ears of cattle, to permit ranchers to track a herd's reproductive and eating habits. In the 1990s, millions of chips were implanted in livestock, fish, dogs, cats, even racehorses.

Microchips are now fixed to car windshields as toll-paying devices, on "contactless" payment cards (Chase's "Blink," or MasterCard's "PayPass"). They're embedded in Michelin tires, library books, passports, work uniforms, luggage, and, unbeknownst to many consumers, on a host of individual items, from Hewlett Packard printers to Sanyo TVs, at Wal-Mart and Best Buy.

But CityWatcher.com employees weren't appliances or pets: They were people made scannable.

"It was scary that a government contractor that specialized in putting surveillance cameras on city streets was the first to incorporate this technology in the workplace," says Liz McIntyre, co-author of "Spychips: How Major Corporations and Government Plan to Track Your Every Move with RFID."

Darks, the CityWatcher.com executive, dismissed his critics, noting that he and his employees had volunteered to be chip-injected. Any suggestion that a sinister, Big-Brother-like campaign was afoot, he said, was hogwash.

"You would think that we were going around putting chips in people by force," he told a reporter, "and that's not the case at all."

Yet, within days of the company's announcement, civil libertarians and Christian conservatives joined to excoriate the microchip's implantation in people.

RFID, they warned, would soon enable the government to "frisk" citizens electronically _ an invisible, undetectable search performed by readers posted at "hotspots" along roadsides and in pedestrian areas. It might even be used to squeal on employees while they worked; time spent at the water cooler, in the bathroom, in a designated smoking area could one day be broadcast, recorded and compiled in off-limits, company databases.

"Ultimately," says Katherine Albrecht, a privacy advocate who specializes in consumer education and RFID technology, "the fear is that the government or your employer might someday say, 'Take a chip or starve.'"

Some Christian critics saw the implants as the fulfillment of a biblical prophecy that describes an age of evil in which humans are forced to take the "Mark of the Beast" on their bodies, to buy or sell anything.

Gary Wohlscheid, president of These Last Days Ministries, a Roman Catholic group in Lowell, Mich., put together a Web site that linked the implantable microchips to the apocalyptic prophecy in the book of Revelation.

"The Bible tells us that God's wrath will come to those who take the Mark of the Beast," he says. Those who refuse to accept the Satanic chip "will be saved," Wohlscheid offers in a comforting tone.

___

In post-9/11 America, electronic surveillance comes in myriad forms: in a gas station's video camera; in a cell phone tucked inside a teen's back pocket; in a radio tag attached to a supermarket shopping cart; in a Porsche automobile equipped with a LoJack anti-theft device.

"We're really on the verge of creating a surveillance society in America, where every movement, every action _ some would even claim, our very thoughts _ will be tracked, monitored, recorded and correlated," says Barry Steinhardt, director of the Technology and Liberty Program at the American Civil Liberties Union in Washington, D.C.

RFID, in Steinhardt's opinion, "could play a pivotal role in creating that surveillance society."

In design, the tag is simple: A medical-grade glass capsule holds a silicon computer chip, a copper antenna and a "capacitor" that transmits data stored on the chip when prompted by an electromagnetic reader.

Implantations are quick, relatively simple procedures. After a local anesthetic is administered, a large-gauge hypodermic needle injects the chip under the skin on the back of the arm, midway between the elbow and the shoulder.

"It feels just like getting a vaccine _ a bit of pressure, no specific pain," says John Halamka, an emergency physician at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston.

He got chipped two years ago, "so that if I was ever in an accident, and arrived unconscious or incoherent at an emergency ward, doctors could identify me and access my medical history quickly." (A chipped person's medical profile can be continuously updated, since the information is stored on a database accessed via the Internet.)

Halamka thinks of his microchip as another technology with practical value, like his BlackBerry. But it's also clear, he says, that there are consequences to having an implanted identifier.

"My friends have commented to me that I'm 'marked' for life, that I've lost my anonymity. And to be honest, I think they're right."

Indeed, as microchip proponents and detractors readily agree, Americans' mistrust of microchips and technologies like RFID runs deep. Many wonder:

Do the current chips have global positioning transceivers that would allow the government to pinpoint a person's exact location, 24-7? (No; the technology doesn't yet exist.)

But could a tech-savvy stalker rig scanners to video cameras and film somebody each time they entered or left the house? (Quite easily, though not cheaply. Currently, readers cost $300 and up.)

How about thieves? Could they make their own readers, aim them at unsuspecting individuals, and surreptitiously pluck people's IDs out of their arms? (Yes. There's even a name for it _ "spoofing.")

What's the average lifespan of a microchip? (About 10-15 years.) What if you get tired of it before then _ can it be easily, painlessly removed? (Short answer: No.)

Presently, Steinhardt and other privacy advocates view the tagging of identity documents _ passports, drivers licenses and the like _ as a more pressing threat to Americans' privacy than the chipping of people. Equipping hospitals, doctors' offices, police stations and government agencies with readers will be costly, training staff will take time, and, he says, "people are going to be too squeamish about having an RFID chip inserted into their arms, or wherever."

But that wasn't the case in March 2004, when the Baja Beach Club in Barcelona, Spain _ a nightclub catering to the body-aware, under-25 crowd _ began holding "Implant Nights."

In a white lab coat, with hypodermic in latex-gloved hand, a company chipper wandered through the throng of the clubbers and clubbettes, anesthetizing the arms of consenting party goers, then injecting them with microchips.

The payoff?

Injectees would thereafter be able to breeze past bouncers and entrance lines, magically open doors to VIP lounges, and pay for drinks without cash or credit cards. The ID number on the VIP chip was linked to the user's financial accounts and stored in the club's computers.

After being chipped himself, club owner Conrad K. Chase declared that chip implants were hardly a big deal to his patrons, since "almost everybody has piercings, tattoos or silicone."

VIP chipping soon spread to the Baja Beach Club in Rotterdam, Holland, the Bar Soba in Edinburgh, Scotland, and the Amika nightclub in Miami Beach, Fla.

That same year, Mexico's attorney general, Rafael Macedo, made an announcement that thrilled chip proponents and chilled privacy advocates: He and 18 members of his staff had been microchipped as a way to limit access to a sensitive records room, whose door unlocked when a "portal reader" scanned the chips.

But did this make Mexican security airtight?

Hardly, says Jonathan Westhues, an independent security researcher in Cambridge, Mass. He concocted an "emulator," a hand-held device that cloned the implantable microchip electronically. With a team of computer-security experts, he demonstrated _ on television _ how easy it was to snag data off a chip.

Explains Adam Stubblefield, a Johns Hopkins researcher who joined the team: "You pass within a foot of a chipped person, copy the chip's code, then with a push of the button, replay the same ID number to any reader. You essentially assume the person's identity."

The company that makes implantable microchips for humans, VeriChip Corp., of Delray Beach, Fla., concedes the point _ even as it markets its radio tag and its portal scanner as imperatives for high-security buildings, such as nuclear power plants.

"To grab information from radio frequency products with a scanning device is not hard to do," Scott Silverman, the company's chief executive, says. However, "the chip itself only contains a unique, 16-digit identification number. The relevant information is stored on a database."

Even so, he insists, it's harder to clone a VeriChip than it would be to steal someone's key card and use it to enter secure areas.

VeriChip Corp., whose parent company has been selling radio tags for animals for more than a decade, has sold 7,000 microchips worldwide, of which about 2,000 have been implanted in humans. More than one-tenth of those have been in the U.S., generating "nominal revenues," the company acknowledged in a Securities and Exchange Commission filing in February.

Although in five years VeriChip Corp. has yet to turn a profit, it has been investing heavily _ up to $2 million a quarter _ to create new markets.

The company's present push: tagging of "high-risk" patients _ diabetics and people with heart conditions or Alzheimer's disease.

In an emergency, hospital staff could wave a reader over a patient's arm, get an ID number, and then, via the Internet, enter a company database and pull up the person's identity and medical history.

To doctors, a "starter kit" _ complete with 10 hypodermic syringes, 10 VeriChips and a reader _ costs $1,400. To patients, a microchip implant means a $200, out-of-pocket expense to their physician. Presently, chip implants aren't covered by insurance companies, Medicare or Medicaid.

For almost two years, the company has been offering hospitals free scanners, but acceptance has been limited. According to the company's most recent SEC quarterly filing, 515 hospitals have pledged to take part in the VeriMed network, yet only 100 have actually been equipped and trained to use the system.

Some wonder why they should abandon noninvasive tags such as MedicAlert, a low-tech bracelet that warns paramedics if patients have serious allergies or a chronic medical condition.

"Having these things under your skin instead of in your back pocket _ it's just not clear to me why it's worth the inconvenience," says Westhues.

Silverman responds that an implanted chip is "guaranteed to be with you. It's not a medical arm bracelet that you can take off if you don't like the way it looks..."

In fact, microchips can be removed from the body _ but it's not like removing a splinter.

The capsules can migrate around the body or bury themselves deep in the arm. When that happens, a sensor X-ray and monitors are needed to locate the chip, and a plastic surgeon must cut away scar tissue that forms around the chip.

The relative permanence is a big reason why Marc Rotenberg, of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, is suspicious about the motives of the company, which charges an annual fee to keep clients' records.

The company charges $20 a year for customers to keep a "one-pager" on its database _ a record of blood type, allergies, medications, driver's license data and living-will directives. For $80 a year, it will keep an individual's full medical history.

___

In recent times, there have been rumors on Wall Street, and elsewhere, of the potential uses for RFID in humans: the chipping of U.S. soldiers, of inmates, or of migrant workers, to name a few.

To date, none of this has happened.

But a large-scale chipping plan that was proposed illustrates the stakes, pro and con.

In mid-May, a protest outside the Alzheimer's Community Care Center in West Palm Beach, Fla., drew attention to a two-year study in which 200 Alzheimer's patients, along with their caregivers, were to receive chip implants. Parents, children and elderly people decried the plan, with signs and placards.

"Chipping People Is Wrong" and "People Are Not Pets," the signs read. And: "Stop VeriChip."

Ironically, the media attention sent VeriChip's stock soaring 27 percent in one day.

"VeriChip offers technology that is absolutely bursting with potential," wrote blogger Gary E. Sattler, of the AOL site Bloggingstocks, even as he recognized privacy concerns.

Albrecht, the RFID critic who organized the demonstration, raises similar concerns on her AntiChips.com Web site.

"Is it appropriate to use the most vulnerable members of society for invasive medical research? Should the company be allowed to implant microchips into people whose mental impairments mean they cannot give fully informed consent?"

Mary Barnes, the care center's chief executive, counters that both the patients and their legal guardians must consent to the implants before receiving them. And the chips, she says, could be invaluable in identifying lost patients _ for instance, if a hurricane strikes Florida.

That, of course, assumes that the Internet would be accessible in a killer storm. VeriChip Corp. acknowledged in an SEC filing that its "database may not function properly" in such circumstances.

As the polemic heats up, legislators are increasingly being drawn into the fray. Two states, Wisconsin and North Dakota, recently passed laws prohibiting the forced implantation of microchips in humans. Others _ Ohio, Oklahoma, Colorado and Florida _ are studying similar legislation.

In May, Oklahoma legislators were debating a bill that would have authorized microchip implants in people imprisoned for violent crimes. Many felt it would be a good way to monitor felons once released from prison.

But other lawmakers raised concerns. Rep. John Wright worried, "Apparently, we're going to permanently put the mark on these people."

Rep. Ed Cannaday found the forced microchipping of inmates "invasive ... We are going down that slippery slope."

In the end, lawmakers sent the bill back to committee for more work.

link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070721/chipping-america/)

April15
07-22-2007, 10:13 AM
As an employer I would never ask an employee to do this. If a mans word isn't good enough then we are in sad shape.

VRWC
07-22-2007, 10:17 AM
As an employer I would never ask an employee to do this. If a mans word isn't good enough then we are in sad shape.

You can come back from Wonderland now......a man's word hasn't been good enough for a long while. It is hard to find employees who you can trust in any job, let alone a high security situation. Almost everybody has a price, in those situations bribes can work.

April15
07-22-2007, 10:25 AM
You can come back from Wonderland now......a man's word hasn't been good enough for a long while. It is hard to find employees who you can trust in any job, let alone a high security situation. Almost everybody has a price, in those situations bribes can work.This is how I live my life. I have only been betrayed twice. Both times by fish emblem people.
I do not associate with money mongerers. They are useless when it comes to hard work. The people I work with have pride in workmanship, a forgotten trait in America. You can thank the repubs for that!

VRWC
07-22-2007, 10:29 AM
This is how I live my life. I have only been betrayed twice. Both times by fish emblem people.
I do not associate with money mongerers. They are useless when it comes to hard work. The people I work with have pride in workmanship, a forgotten trait in America. You can thank the repubs for that!

Is everything the Republicans fault with you? Every post I have read of yours today, its the Republicans fault. How about just the lazy work ethic of people today? Couldn't it be their own fault? Except, you always have to blame the Republicans. Whether you believe it or not, people make their own decisions about their work ethic and everything else in their lives.

I agree, pride in workmanship is a lost trait on most today, but there are still some out there that have it. And it is not the fault of any political party, but the apathy of people. Grow up.

April15
07-22-2007, 10:34 AM
Is everything the Republicans fault with you? Every post I have read of yours today, its the Republicans fault. How about just the lazy work ethic of people today? Couldn't it be their own fault? Except, you always have to blame the Republicans. Whether you believe it or not, people make their own decisions about their work ethic and everything else in their lives.

I agree, pride in workmanship is a lost trait on most today, but there are still some out there that have it. And it is not the fault of any political party, but the apathy of people. Grow up.

I take it you are republican? The work ethic is a result of the highly visible graft and corruption brought on by the conservatives.

VRWC
07-22-2007, 10:37 AM
I take it you are republican? The work ethic is a result of the highly visible graft and corruption brought on by the conservatives.

That's one version I guess.......Or the entitlement society brought forth by the Democrats maybe?!?!?

I do not really believe that, because I understand that people make their own choices, while you must find a way to blame republicans for everything. Personal responsibilty is completely void in your fantasy world.

I'm an independent, more aligned with the republican party than the democrats, today, but that can change.

Trueblue
07-22-2007, 10:42 AM
That's one version I guess.......Or the entitlement society brought forth by the Democrats maybe?!?!?

I do not really believe that, because I understand that people make their own choices, while you must find a way to blame republicans for everything. Personal responsibilty is completely void in your fantasy world.

I'm an independent, more aligned with the republican party than the democrats, today, but that can change.

:lol

Why do you Publicans always say that? It's such a crock. Another :blah phrase that means nothing, when you consider to whom it's said.

April15
07-22-2007, 10:42 AM
That's one version I guess.......Or the entitlement society brought forth by the Democrats maybe?!?!?

I do not really believe that, because I understand that people make their own choices, while you must find a way to blame republicans for everything. Personal responsibilty is completely void in your fantasy world.

I'm an independent, more aligned with the republican party than the democrats, today, but that can change.

I don't have to find a way, it just is. And it is a conversation starter.
Personal responsibility is everything in my "world". Trust and truth can only come from responsible people.

VRWC
07-22-2007, 10:50 AM
:lol

Why do you Publicans always say that? It's such a crock. Another :blah phrase that means nothing, when you consider to whom it's said.

If you read what April was saying, my response was not blah blah it was an accurate assesment.

VRWC
07-22-2007, 10:51 AM
I don't have to find a way, it just is. And it is a conversation starter.
Personal responsibility is everything in my "world". Trust and truth can only come from responsible people.

You say personal responsibilty is "everything" in your world, yet continue to claim everything is the fault of Republicans, all in the same sentence. Exactly how do those two meld together?

Trueblue
07-22-2007, 10:59 AM
If you read what April was saying, my response was not blah blah it was an accurate assesment.

I read what he was saying. He takes personal responsibility for what is his to take.

The Republican politicians need to take some responsibility for their actions.

VRWC
07-22-2007, 11:06 AM
I read what he was saying. He takes personal responsibility for what is his to take.

The Republican politicians need to take some responsibility for their actions.

Why must politics come into every converstaion with you two. There are still some things that aren't inherently political.....even though you try to make them so.

Some things are not political. Like people taking responsibilty. Only political when a meddling bitch like you comes into a converstaion without reading it first.

VRWC
07-22-2007, 11:09 AM
I'm tired of the ignorant arguments from so many people on this forum. Everything is the Republicans fault, no everything is the Democrats fault. Grow up and start thinking for yourself. There are many here who can do that, sadly, that number is shrinking.

Trueblue
07-22-2007, 11:12 AM
Why must politics come into every converstaion with you two. There are still some things that aren't inherently political.....even though you try to make them so.

Some things are not political. Like people taking responsibilty. Only political when a meddling bitch like you comes into a converstaion without reading it first.

Well, this is The Political Asylum. :shrug

I'm tired of the ignorant arguments from so many people on this forum. Everything is the Republicans fault, no everything is the Democrats fault. Grow up and start thinking for yourself. There are many here who can do that, sadly, that number is shrinking.

I think that many of your comments are ignorant and uninformed, too. That's why I zero in on them, I want to educate you.

No, not everything is about political party, but a number of topics are going to go in that direction on a board like this.

VRWC
07-22-2007, 11:16 AM
I think that many of your comments are ignorant and uninformed, too. That's why I zero in on them, I want to educate you.


Now that is the funniest thing I have ever heard. If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black.:lmao

Zanoog
07-22-2007, 11:17 AM
No name calling a member - knock it off.

Trueblue
07-22-2007, 11:20 AM
Now that is the funniest thing I have ever heard. If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black.:lmao

No, not really. I'm a well-informed person, I read a lot, and I have a lot of experiences upon which I draw. I have seen many conservatives go crazy over information that was new to them. They think that I am misinformed, when actually it is they who are misinformed.

I wouldn't have said it in a post if you hadn't been so rude to me, though. I would have just kept working on ya. :wave

VRWC
07-22-2007, 11:35 AM
I also am well educated and well read. That doesn't mean that information isn't new to me, but rarely is it. That also doesn't mean that you or I are right all of the time either. Education alone, or reading for that matter, does not neccesarily make you smart.

Please point to one case where I have "gone crazy" over new information.

Saguaro
07-22-2007, 11:44 AM
Why must politics come into every converstaion with you two. There are still some things that aren't inherently political.....even though you try to make them so.

Some things are not political. Like people taking responsibilty. Only political when a meddling bitch like you comes into a converstaion without reading it first.


:nono :focus

Phoenix
07-22-2007, 11:50 AM
clholloway - You are right. There are a few around here who hate republicans and conservatism blindly and blame all the evils in the world on them. However, you can't be calling people "bitch". It takes away from your point anyway.

Carry on. :pop2

Trueblue
07-22-2007, 11:52 AM
clholloway - You are right. There are a few around here who hate republicans and conservatism blindly and blame all the evils in the world on them. However, you can't be calling people "bitch". It takes away from your point anyway.

Carry on. :pop2

I apologize, sometimes I get so mad at the far right folks that I forget that there are many Rs that are good, thoughtful people.

Phoenix
07-22-2007, 11:54 AM
:hug

Trueblue
07-22-2007, 11:54 AM
I also am well educated and well read. That doesn't mean that information isn't new to me, but rarely is it. That also doesn't mean that you or I are right all of the time either. Education alone, or reading for that matter, does not neccesarily make you smart.

Please point to one case where I have "gone crazy" over new information.

Your initial posts on this forum involved telling me that I had no clue about taxation, and yet your knowledge seemed rather limited.

You take a much nicer tone now, but you shouldn't call me, or anyone, a meddling bitch simply because they posted on a thread in a forum.

Trueblue
07-22-2007, 11:55 AM
:hug

:)

In forums and IRL, it takes most kinds of people, and most kinds of viewpoints, to make the world work!!!!

Zanoog
07-22-2007, 12:06 PM
:aww

VRWC
07-22-2007, 12:07 PM
Your initial posts on this forum involved telling me that I had no clue about taxation, and yet your knowledge seemed rather limited.

You take a much nicer tone now, but you shouldn't call me, or anyone, a meddling bitch simply because they posted on a thread in a forum.

I had been on the forum for quite a while when that occured. And I never once said you had no clue about it. I disagreed with everything you said about it, but never said or implied you had no clue about it. You had a view that all the rich should pay for the entitlement programs I had a view that said they shouldn't. Never once did I claim you didn't have a clue about taxation.

Zanoog
07-22-2007, 12:11 PM
Better!

Now - the topic was putting devices in the employees bodies.

for me? No effing way!!

VRWC
07-22-2007, 12:16 PM
No problem with it, provided you are given the choice. The job(with the chip) or no job, is all that is required in my opinion.

April15
07-22-2007, 12:18 PM
Putting lie detectors in a person is just so "Brave New World" if you ask me. If your social skills for interpersonal contact are so lacking you can't tell when the poop is getting deep perhaps we need to go back to caves.
Oh, And I like to blame republicans and Bush especially as the apollogists come out for the party.

VRWC
07-22-2007, 12:27 PM
Putting lie detectors in a person is just so "Brave New World" if you ask me. If your social skills for interpersonal contact are so lacking you can't tell when the poop is getting deep perhaps we need to go back to caves.
Oh, And I like to blame republicans and Bush especially as the apollogists come out for the party.

Who apoligized and what the hell does it have to do with this thread. Wheres the mods when you need em.

VRWC
07-22-2007, 12:29 PM
Putting lie detectors in a person is just so "Brave New World" if you ask me. If your social skills for interpersonal contact are so lacking you can't tell when the poop is getting deep perhaps we need to go back to caves.
Oh, And I like to blame republicans and Bush especially as the apollogists come out for the party.

Quite the condecending, holier than thou, post from you there April. Perhaps a bit elitist even?

April15
07-22-2007, 12:29 PM
Who apoligized and what the hell does it have to do with this thread. Wheres the mods when you need em.I don't think anyone appollogised . And you need to be a libby to get moderation. Now back to Bush?

Wabash
07-22-2007, 12:59 PM
This is how I live my life. I have only been betrayed twice. Both times by fish emblem people.
I do not associate with money mongerers. They are useless when it comes to hard work. The people I work with have pride in workmanship, a forgotten trait in America. You can thank the repubs for that!

The "Entitlement Society" and liberal persusaion in general, fostered by Democraps, is key in today's lack of morals and lack of work ethic.

April15
07-22-2007, 01:16 PM
The "Entitlement Society" and liberal persusaion in general, fostered by Democraps, is key in today's lack of morals and lack of work ethic.While the policies of FDR helped America out of the Great Depression no one can deny they have had adverse consequences. I feel part of this comes from the feel good attitude we had in the 50's and 60's. The invincible USA. And at the time it was. And no one thought of ending the more over reaching policies of the 30's.
Now we have a lot of misperceptions and steriotypes based on 30 year old facts.
Entitlements are what many of todays children feel they deserve just because they are here.

Wabash
07-22-2007, 01:44 PM
While the policies of FDR helped America out of the Great Depression no one can deny they have had adverse consequences. I feel part of this comes from the feel good attitude we had in the 50's and 60's. The invincible USA. And at the time it was. And no one thought of ending the more over reaching policies of the 30's.
Now we have a lot of misperceptions and steriotypes based on 30 year old facts.
Entitlements are what many of todays children feel they deserve just because they are here.


That is your best post ever April! I totally agree!:paclap:paclap:paclap

quiet man
07-22-2007, 01:50 PM
no i don't want any part of "chips" in my body. i don't believe a job is that important to need a security level like this. should such a job be in the offing the compensation would be what dreams are made of or the job would go on down the road. :drevil :tequila :hotdog

Trueblue
07-22-2007, 01:58 PM
I had been on the forum for quite a while when that occured. And I never once said you had no clue about it. I disagreed with everything you said about it, but never said or implied you had no clue about it. You had a view that all the rich should pay for the entitlement programs I had a view that said they shouldn't. Never once did I claim you didn't have a clue about taxation.

Uh, no, at no time did I say, imply, or suggest that all the rich pay for entitlement programs while the rest of us did nothing.

I don't know the date, I just know that you, Rev, and I were discussing taxation, and you chided me for my not having a clue.

http://forums.thepoliticalasylum.com/showpost.php?p=93250&postcount=27

bluedog
07-22-2007, 01:59 PM
While the policies of FDR helped America out of the Great Depression no one can deny they have had adverse consequences. I feel part of this comes from the feel good attitude we had in the 50's and 60's. The invincible USA. And at the time it was. And no one thought of ending the more over reaching policies of the 30's.
Now we have a lot of misperceptions and steriotypes based on 30 year old facts.
Entitlements are what many of todays children feel they deserve just because they are here.

What about the facts of history that show that Mr. Humphrey stated some of these social programs. And the facts are it was our involvement in ww2 that truly pulled the country from the grip of the "great depression".

And I being a true conservative socialist, just as was Mr. Roosevelt, would in fact give him the credit that is is "due". But he made the correct rationalization that we can not help anyone with social programs by bringing down the "engine" that drives our national security and our economy, the capitalistic nature of our democratic republic.

As the social communist of today are nothing in comparison to true democrats. Their "goal" is to transform our democratic republic into a "socialist republic" with the state controlling the wealth and the power of the people, thus killing the engine that drives our way of life.

You want to find examples of socialist republics and how history treated them? Look to the history of Russia, Cuba and even France with its partial society of communist programs.

No, thank you very much. I like things just as they are.
Freedom backed by strength, not freedom at the expense of our military strength or a bankrupt economy. BD

Zanoog
07-22-2007, 02:31 PM
This is all very interesting - but how does it connect to the topic? Employers requiring implant security devices.

I'm against it! Anybody else?

Sassafras
07-22-2007, 02:54 PM
I prefer to put those shock collars on our employees. :shrug


Less invasive, yet just as effective. :drevil

bluedog
07-22-2007, 03:02 PM
This is all very interesting - but how does it connect to the topic? Employers requiring implant security devices.

I'm against it! Anybody else?

It don't, never said it did, just a hell of lot more interesting than who thinks what or is it constitutional for them to try and find out what you are thinking. An action the political police have been trying to implement for some time, in their "Idea" of what is or is not correct. BD

Ringo
07-22-2007, 03:04 PM
This is how I live my life. I have only been betrayed twice. Both times by fish emblem people.
I do not associate with money mongerers. They are useless when it comes to hard work. The people I work with have pride in workmanship, a forgotten trait in America. You can thank the repubs for that!

Good fucking grief April, you get worse daily!! Republicans, Bush, or Christians have nothing to do whith your "POOR ME" life! Your Commie party of Liberal Progressive Dems are far worse than the Right would ever be!

Get off the pity pot, and try MANNING up a little, and you will see this has been coming for a long tiime as the SHEEP of America stand around with their fingers up their ass!!

Try Wal Mart on for size, FRIENDS of the Clintons, and their elaborate fenced in Area 51 South security facilitly! They trust NO one and you OWE them the business, according to their sick ass thinking! CORPORATE America, and BOTH Parties suck ass and allow this to happen!

Ringo
07-22-2007, 03:16 PM
:nono :focus


Did TB get a warning like this also, or is she PROTECTED SPIECES? HE IS RIGHT ABOUT THE BUTTING IN AND THE ARROGANCE!

Ringo
07-22-2007, 03:21 PM
Uh, no, at no time did I say, imply, or suggest that all the rich pay for entitlement programs while the rest of us did nothing.

I don't know the date, I just know that you, Rev, and I were discussing taxation, and you chided me for my not having a clue.

http://forums.thepoliticalasylum.com/showpost.php?p=93250&postcount=27


Is this TOPIC? She has no worries as NO ONE will say anything to her!:focus:img

April15
07-22-2007, 03:25 PM
That is your best post ever April! I totally agree!:paclap:paclap:paclap

Is it too late to change?

Ringo
07-22-2007, 03:29 PM
This is all very interesting - but how does it connect to the topic? Employers requiring implant security devices.

I'm against it! Anybody else?

Actually I find his responce far better then the continual WHINE & POUT of WHO IS SMARTER, or WHO'S DOG IS FASTER, that comes from "certain" insecure wimps!

Now I am dumb as hell, my dogs lazy, and I have to get ready for a trip! BUT NO, I would never allow it, I would never work for any company that allowed this, and I have been asked about it before in my consultations! I stated that would be a flat NO, and I would no part of anythiong like this!

April15
07-22-2007, 03:34 PM
What about the facts of history that show that Mr. Humphrey stated some of these social programs. And the facts are it was our involvement in ww2 that truly pulled the country from the grip of the "great depression".

And I being a true conservative socialist, just as was Mr. Roosevelt, would in fact give him the credit that is is "due". But he made the correct rationalization that we can not help anyone with social programs by bringing down the "engine" that drives our national security and our economy, the capitalistic nature of our democratic republic.

As the social communist of today are nothing in comparison to true democrats. Their "goal" is to transform our democratic republic into a "socialist republic" with the state controlling the wealth and the power of the people, thus killing the engine that drives our way of life.

You want to find examples of socialist republics and how history treated them? Look to the history of Russia, Cuba and even France with its partial society of communist programs.

No, thank you very much. I like things just as they are.
Freedom backed by strength, not freedom at the expense of our military strength or a bankrupt economy. BD

While the war effort caused us to increase our ability to produce products faster it was the post war boom that truly "grew" the country. Workers were employees for life and very devoted to those corporations of the time. Over the years profits became more important than devoted employees.
The list of symptoms for our nations demise as a free capitalist enterprise are many. Socialist policies is not one of them.

And to argue we are still number 1 is not backed by any measure! A communist country holds #1 in production. We do hold #1 in consumption.

Trueblue
07-22-2007, 04:42 PM
I prefer to put those shock collars on our employees. :shrug


Less invasive, yet just as effective. :drevil

:rofl2

I can't imagine agreeing to these implants. It gives me the creeps that something so invasive would be done.

issac the dragon
07-22-2007, 04:45 PM
One of the dangers in our country is the people who keep insisting they have nothing to hide. "Search my house without a warrent. I have nothing to hide. Put up cameras in public places to watch where I go, and what I do. I have nothing to hide. Put a chip in my body. I have nothing to hide." That clearly implies that those of us who do not want our privacy invaded have something to hide. I have nothing to hide, but I don't want the government in my private business. Ever. Are we all going to lie down life a bunch of mindless fools while the government takes over our lives and minds?

bluedog
07-22-2007, 05:00 PM
While the war effort caused us to increase our ability to produce products faster it was the post war boom that truly "grew" the country. Workers were employees for life and very devoted to those corporations of the time. Over the years profits became more important than devoted employees.
The list of symptoms for our nations demise as a free capitalist enterprise are many. Socialist policies is not one of them.

And to argue we are still number 1 is not backed by any measure! A communist country holds #1 in production. We do hold #1 in consumption.

But you can not cherry pick your conclusions, stated under one roof, find another country with power, economic strength, and "F..R..E..E...D..O..O..M". The country that you are so "proudly espousing as having taken control of the world economic welfare system is doing so at the "expense" of our constitutional rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In other words the state has taken away the freedoms of the people and work them in less than humane conditions to make profit from their effort. If you think this is a better system you are welcome to it. But again find an example of anyone that offers true freedoms and wealth as we the United States of America does. There are no examples. Off topic and politically incorrect, but who really cares, truth transcends any emotion filled opinion. BD

bluedog
07-22-2007, 05:14 PM
But you can not cherry pick your conclusions, stated under one roof, find another country with power, economic strength, and "F..R..E..E...D..O..O..M". The country that you are so "proudly espousing as having taken control of the world economic welfare system is doing so at the "expense" of our constitutional rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In other words the state has taken away the freedoms of the people and work them in less than humane conditions to make profit from their effort. If you think this is a better system you are welcome to it. But again find an example of anyone that offers true freedoms and wealth as we the United States of America does. There are no examples. Off topic and politically incorrect, but who really cares, truth transcends any emotion filled opinion. BD

Sense there is a restriction of editing of a post to limit one to 3min. I will simply post on my own thread further thoughts on this subject.

As we speak, there is a "toxic" cloud of industrial pollution crossing the pacific with its "environmental" results of this "greatness". Are we to sacrifice the environment and the rights of the peoples in this country to become socialized with all the benefits thereof? BD

April15
07-22-2007, 07:57 PM
But you can not cherry pick your conclusions, stated under one roof, find another country with power, economic strength, and "F..R..E..E...D..O..O..M". The country that you are so "proudly espousing as having taken control of the world economic welfare system is doing so at the "expense" of our constitutional rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In other words the state has taken away the freedoms of the people and work them in less than humane conditions to make profit from their effort. If you think this is a better system you are welcome to it. But again find an example of anyone that offers true freedoms and wealth as we the United States of America does. There are no examples. Off topic and politically incorrect, but who really cares, truth transcends any emotion filled opinion. BDAnd we, the USA, are very close to those same conditions. And our freedom is being erroded as we speak. Slowly yet ever so surly.